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Author Topic: Milk Train Brake Vans  (Read 17375 times)

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Offline REGP

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Milk Train Brake Vans
« on: December 12, 2014, 04:58:22 PM »
Looking at the latest Dapol offer of a Class 22 and 6 Milk Wagons I noticed the absence of a brake  van.

As I understand it this could well be correct for the Blue liveried version because I believe that after 1968 guards travelled in the rear compartment of the loco and the blue livery had been introduced in 1965.

But what about the green version I have just received?

I suppose it would need a Collett BG if it was running as a separate Milk Train, would the plain Crimson version the NGS are producing be appropriate?
But what if the milk wagons were tagged on the end of a separate Passenger train, would they need a separate brake?

Any guidance / suggestions welcomed.

Ray

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2014, 05:08:49 PM »
iirc Karhedron of this foruim did an excellent review of milk tanker traffic along with others in the N gauge society magazine, will dig out answers later when at home if no one has answered before :)
I just think people overvalue argument because they like to hear themselves talk.

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2014, 09:49:30 PM »
Speak my name and I shall appear!  :D

Yes, you are correct in your assumption that a passenger brake vehicle would be required prior to 1968. The NGS Collett BG would be ideal for this as they were common on milk trains. The Dapol model has a small yellow warning panel which means it is post 1962, for this reason I would recommend the Maroon livery as being most appropriate. If you prefer the plain crimson or crimson and cream liveries, you could justify these too as repainting was not always a high priority for pre-nationalisation vehicles.

By the 1960s, mixed passenger and milk trains were not very common any more. The only examples I know of were Hemyock and the Saltash auto-trains. In both cases, these had milk tankers being tripped to a junction for pick-up by a longer-distance service (in this case, the west-country milk train).

The milk tankers from Moreton-in-the-Marsh were attached behind the Paddington express but I am not sure how long this arrangement lasted. I believe it was still the practice in the early 50s but I have not been able to find out if it lasted into the 60s.

However you are correct, milk tankers attached to a passenger train would not require a separate BG as long as there was accommodation for the guard in the main portion of the train.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2014, 09:58:26 PM »
Now, just to throw a slight spanner in the works, the milk tankers included in the Dapol set are not really suitable for the green diesel era. They are lovely models and the weathering is beautiful but the "United Dairies" livery is actually a pre-nationalisation scheme. Milk tankers were pooled during WW2 and started to be painted plain silver. This continued after nationalisation and by the 1960s, most milk tankers were (dirty) silver with just the odd pre-nationalisation example in the mix.

Here is a picture of a Court on a milk train in Sonning cutting around nationalisation. You can see that the milk tankers are both freshly outshopped in the new silver livery.



I picked up the green milk tanker set when I was in the Dapol club as it was really nicely done. However I run the milk tankers with my earlier steam locos. I picked up a blue 22 with milk tankers set in order to get the tankers to run with my green 22. I then sold the blue 22 on eBay and covered most of my costs.

It may have been a bit of faff but it means I now have 2 rakes of milk tankers to suit both pre and post-nationalisation on my layout.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2014, 10:01:28 PM »
Just to clarify that, Matt. Are the tanks in the 'Blue' set plain silver?
Maybe a dumb question but I haven't seen a blue set :dunce:

Offline mk1gtstu

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Cridmore Yard (4x2 1980's layout) http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=10382.msg107202#msg107202

My Box File Layout (South Wales Valleys Colliery) http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=10430.0

Porthkerry (A South Wales layout in BR Blue) http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39654.0

Offline Bob Tidbury

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2014, 10:27:26 PM »
Not an expert on train formations so Karhedron can I use a Minitrix maroon full brake on the back of my milk tanks I'm also not a rivet counter so if that is close is it better than nothing or would a brake van ie Toad be OK ?
Bob

Offline REGP

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2014, 10:29:50 PM »
Karhedron

Thanks for all the info, the little yellow stickers you mention on the Maroon BG would they be overhead warning notice?

If so I suppose I could always paint them out, although I might run with a very "dirty" Crimson BG instead. 

I do remember reading somewhere about the tanker livery being wrong but may just dirty the tankers up an bit more, unless of course the tankers with the Blue class  22 are correct in which case I may look for some of those.

All I have to do now is determine if the operating lights on the loco are working correctly(they only come on on one side)

Ray

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2014, 11:08:00 PM »
Hello,

The silver tankers that come with the weathered blue 22 are also correct for the green diesel era. The white ones that come with the green 22 are really more suited to steam.

IIRC the minitrix full-brake is a Mk1 vehicle. Mk1s did not run in milk trains as they were too new, pre-nationalisation designs were almost always used as far as I can tell. By the time the Mk1s were cascaded off principle services, milk trains no longer had to include brake vehicles for the guard.

Options for full brakes include (current and forthcoming models):

GWR/WR Collett K41 full brake (NGS)
GWR/WR Hawksworth K45 full brake (Farish)
LMS/MR/SR Stove-R (NGS)
LMS/MR/SR Stannier full brake (Farish)
SR Maunsell Van B (Dapol)
LNER/ER Gresley full brake (NGS kit, no RTR)
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline PennineWagons

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2014, 11:14:50 PM »
Weren't Stove R vans particularly associated with milk traffic in the 1950s & 60s? Maroon livery (applied from 1956) would be the most appropriate for the green diesel era, although there might well have been the occasional blood & custard one still around at the time.
PW

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2014, 11:39:44 AM »
Stove-Rs were indeed very popular for milk trains. Milk trains rarely carried much in the way of parcels since they ended up at milk bottling plants which was not a useful destination for parcel traffic. For this reason, the smaller and lighter the brake vehicle, the better. There was no point in carting about dead-weight.

Stoves were used on the LMS and later the MR for milk trains. After nationalisation, quite a few migrated to the southern region where they proved quite popular. Here is one at Vauxhall on a milk train.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/5375845579/in/faves-39347043@N07/

As for livery, I think they wore plain crimson in the 1950s. I remember there was some debate as to whether they received crimson and cream. I think that the consensus was that crimson and cream was a rare livery on Stoves and applied only to those assigned for duties in passenger trains. A plain crimson one would probably be more appropriate on a milk train (unless applying rule #1 ;) ).

In general though, they would almost certainly have been in Maroon by 1962.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 11:40:48 AM by Karhedron »
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline Bob Tidbury

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2014, 12:56:18 PM »
What about the Western Region milk trains .?
Bob

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2014, 08:46:40 PM »
What about the Western Region milk trains .?


Almost always a GWR-pattern full brake. The Collett K41 from the NGS or the Hawksworth K45 on the way from Farish would fit the bill nicely. The Colletts in particular are being done in a range of liveries to suit the 1930s onwards.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19068.msg263659#msg263659

If you want something a bit more exotic for earlier periods then Etched Pixels produce kits of the diminutive O13 milk brakes.

http://www.ultima-models.co.uk/catalogue/gwr-milk.html

Taylor Precision Models produce a kit to convert a Dapol B-set into a Collett K40 which also works rather well. Here is my Maroon one on my own layout. I built another in GWR livery too.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 09:02:41 PM by Karhedron »
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline austinbob

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2014, 09:00:08 PM »
Hello,

The silver tankers that come with the weathered blue 22 are also correct for the green diesel era. The white ones that come with the green 22 are really more suited to steam.

IIRC the minitrix full-brake is a Mk1 vehicle. Mk1s did not run in milk trains as they were too new, pre-nationalisation designs were almost always used as far as I can tell. By the time the Mk1s were cascaded off principle services, milk trains no longer had to include brake vehicles for the guard.

Options for full brakes include (current and forthcoming models):

GWR/WR Collett K41 full brake (NGS)
GWR/WR Hawksworth K45 full brake (Farish)
LMS/MR/SR Stove-R (NGS)
LMS/MR/SR Stannier full brake (Farish)
SR Maunsell Van B (Dapol)
LNER/ER Gresley full brake (NGS kit, no RTR)

I can't find a Farish 'Stanier' full brake but there is a LMS 50ft full brake 374-887. Is that suitable Karhedron?
Size matters - especially if you don't have a lot of space - and N gauge is the answer!

Bob Austin

Offline NeMo

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2014, 09:03:23 PM »
What about the Western Region milk trains .?
Bob
Post-1968 they seem not have had a brake van or coach in them at all. Just the milk tanks. Numerous photos in, for example, in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line'. What did happen though was adding parcel and newspaper vans to the consist.

Cheers, NeMo
NGS Journal Editor

 

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