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General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: REGP on December 12, 2014, 04:58:22 PM

Title: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: REGP on December 12, 2014, 04:58:22 PM
Looking at the latest Dapol offer of a Class 22 and 6 Milk Wagons I noticed the absence of a brake  van.

As I understand it this could well be correct for the Blue liveried version because I believe that after 1968 guards travelled in the rear compartment of the loco and the blue livery had been introduced in 1965.

But what about the green version I have just received?

I suppose it would need a Collett BG if it was running as a separate Milk Train, would the plain Crimson version the NGS are producing be appropriate?
But what if the milk wagons were tagged on the end of a separate Passenger train, would they need a separate brake?

Any guidance / suggestions welcomed.

Ray
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Zakalwe on December 12, 2014, 05:08:49 PM
iirc Karhedron of this foruim did an excellent review of milk tanker traffic along with others in the N gauge society magazine, will dig out answers later when at home if no one has answered before :)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 12, 2014, 09:49:30 PM
Speak my name and I shall appear!  :D

Yes, you are correct in your assumption that a passenger brake vehicle would be required prior to 1968. The NGS Collett BG would be ideal for this as they were common on milk trains. The Dapol model has a small yellow warning panel which means it is post 1962, for this reason I would recommend the Maroon livery as being most appropriate. If you prefer the plain crimson or crimson and cream liveries, you could justify these too as repainting was not always a high priority for pre-nationalisation vehicles.

By the 1960s, mixed passenger and milk trains were not very common any more. The only examples I know of were Hemyock and the Saltash auto-trains. In both cases, these had milk tankers being tripped to a junction for pick-up by a longer-distance service (in this case, the west-country milk train).

The milk tankers from Moreton-in-the-Marsh were attached behind the Paddington express but I am not sure how long this arrangement lasted. I believe it was still the practice in the early 50s but I have not been able to find out if it lasted into the 60s.

However you are correct, milk tankers attached to a passenger train would not require a separate BG as long as there was accommodation for the guard in the main portion of the train.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 12, 2014, 09:58:26 PM
Now, just to throw a slight spanner in the works, the milk tankers included in the Dapol set are not really suitable for the green diesel era. They are lovely models and the weathering is beautiful but the "United Dairies" livery is actually a pre-nationalisation scheme. Milk tankers were pooled during WW2 and started to be painted plain silver. This continued after nationalisation and by the 1960s, most milk tankers were (dirty) silver with just the odd pre-nationalisation example in the mix.

Here is a picture of a Court on a milk train in Sonning cutting around nationalisation. You can see that the milk tankers are both freshly outshopped in the new silver livery.

(http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/images/CaynhamCourt.jpg)

I picked up the green milk tanker set when I was in the Dapol club as it was really nicely done. However I run the milk tankers with my earlier steam locos. I picked up a blue 22 with milk tankers set in order to get the tankers to run with my green 22. I then sold the blue 22 on eBay and covered most of my costs.

It may have been a bit of faff but it means I now have 2 rakes of milk tankers to suit both pre and post-nationalisation on my layout.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Newportnobby on December 12, 2014, 10:01:28 PM
Just to clarify that, Matt. Are the tanks in the 'Blue' set plain silver?
Maybe a dumb question but I haven't seen a blue set :dunce:
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: mk1gtstu on December 12, 2014, 10:17:54 PM
Looks like they're silver from this?  :hmmm:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dapol-Class-22-diesel-locomotive-in-BR-blue-6-milk-tankers-weathered-/141504379939?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item20f2517c23 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dapol-Class-22-diesel-locomotive-in-BR-blue-6-milk-tankers-weathered-/141504379939?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item20f2517c23)

cheers, Stu.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Bob Tidbury on December 12, 2014, 10:27:26 PM
Not an expert on train formations so Karhedron can I use a Minitrix maroon full brake on the back of my milk tanks I'm also not a rivet counter so if that is close is it better than nothing or would a brake van ie Toad be OK ?
Bob
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: REGP on December 12, 2014, 10:29:50 PM
Karhedron

Thanks for all the info, the little yellow stickers you mention on the Maroon BG would they be overhead warning notice?

If so I suppose I could always paint them out, although I might run with a very "dirty" Crimson BG instead. 

I do remember reading somewhere about the tanker livery being wrong but may just dirty the tankers up an bit more, unless of course the tankers with the Blue class  22 are correct in which case I may look for some of those.

All I have to do now is determine if the operating lights on the loco are working correctly(they only come on on one side)

Ray
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 12, 2014, 11:08:00 PM
Hello,

The silver tankers that come with the weathered blue 22 are also correct for the green diesel era. The white ones that come with the green 22 are really more suited to steam.

IIRC the minitrix full-brake is a Mk1 vehicle. Mk1s did not run in milk trains as they were too new, pre-nationalisation designs were almost always used as far as I can tell. By the time the Mk1s were cascaded off principle services, milk trains no longer had to include brake vehicles for the guard.

Options for full brakes include (current and forthcoming models):

GWR/WR Collett K41 full brake (NGS)
GWR/WR Hawksworth K45 full brake (Farish)
LMS/MR/SR Stove-R (NGS)
LMS/MR/SR Stannier full brake (Farish)
SR Maunsell Van B (Dapol)
LNER/ER Gresley full brake (NGS kit, no RTR)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: PennineWagons on December 12, 2014, 11:14:50 PM
Weren't Stove R vans particularly associated with milk traffic in the 1950s & 60s? Maroon livery (applied from 1956) would be the most appropriate for the green diesel era, although there might well have been the occasional blood & custard one still around at the time.
PW
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 13, 2014, 11:39:44 AM
Stove-Rs were indeed very popular for milk trains. Milk trains rarely carried much in the way of parcels since they ended up at milk bottling plants which was not a useful destination for parcel traffic. For this reason, the smaller and lighter the brake vehicle, the better. There was no point in carting about dead-weight.

Stoves were used on the LMS and later the MR for milk trains. After nationalisation, quite a few migrated to the southern region where they proved quite popular. Here is one at Vauxhall on a milk train.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/5375845579/in/faves-39347043@N07/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/5375845579/in/faves-39347043@N07/)

As for livery, I think they wore plain crimson in the 1950s. I remember there was some debate as to whether they received crimson and cream. I think that the consensus was that crimson and cream was a rare livery on Stoves and applied only to those assigned for duties in passenger trains. A plain crimson one would probably be more appropriate on a milk train (unless applying rule #1 ;) ).

In general though, they would almost certainly have been in Maroon by 1962.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Bob Tidbury on December 13, 2014, 12:56:18 PM
What about the Western Region milk trains .?
Bob
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 13, 2014, 08:46:40 PM
What about the Western Region milk trains .?


Almost always a GWR-pattern full brake. The Collett K41 from the NGS or the Hawksworth K45 on the way from Farish would fit the bill nicely. The Colletts in particular are being done in a range of liveries to suit the 1930s onwards.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19068.msg263659#msg263659 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19068.msg263659#msg263659)

If you want something a bit more exotic for earlier periods then Etched Pixels produce kits of the diminutive O13 milk brakes.

http://www.ultima-models.co.uk/catalogue/gwr-milk.html (http://www.ultima-models.co.uk/catalogue/gwr-milk.html)

Taylor Precision Models produce a kit to convert a Dapol B-set into a Collett K40 which also works rather well. Here is my Maroon one on my own layout. I built another in GWR livery too.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee199/Karhedronuk/Chew_Magna_creamery_zpsd9dd2aaf.jpg)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: austinbob on December 13, 2014, 09:00:08 PM
Hello,

The silver tankers that come with the weathered blue 22 are also correct for the green diesel era. The white ones that come with the green 22 are really more suited to steam.

IIRC the minitrix full-brake is a Mk1 vehicle. Mk1s did not run in milk trains as they were too new, pre-nationalisation designs were almost always used as far as I can tell. By the time the Mk1s were cascaded off principle services, milk trains no longer had to include brake vehicles for the guard.

Options for full brakes include (current and forthcoming models):

GWR/WR Collett K41 full brake (NGS)
GWR/WR Hawksworth K45 full brake (Farish)
LMS/MR/SR Stove-R (NGS)
LMS/MR/SR Stannier full brake (Farish)
SR Maunsell Van B (Dapol)
LNER/ER Gresley full brake (NGS kit, no RTR)

I can't find a Farish 'Stanier' full brake but there is a LMS 50ft full brake 374-887. Is that suitable Karhedron?
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NeMo on December 13, 2014, 09:03:23 PM
What about the Western Region milk trains .?
Bob
Post-1968 they seem not have had a brake van or coach in them at all. Just the milk tanks. Numerous photos in, for example, in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line'. What did happen though was adding parcel and newspaper vans to the consist.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 13, 2014, 09:06:56 PM
I can't find a Farish 'Stanier' full brake but there is a LMS 50ft full brake 374-887. Is that suitable Karhedron?

Yes, that is the one. They were designed by Stanier but Farish may simply refer to them as LMS full brakes.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: austinbob on December 13, 2014, 09:08:44 PM
Thanks Karhedron - its in my shopping basket as we speak!
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 13, 2014, 09:10:19 PM
Post-1968 they seem not have had a brake van or coach in them at all. Just the milk tanks. Numerous photos in, for example, in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line'. What did happen though was adding parcel and newspaper vans to the consist.

Not just a post-1968 phenomenon but more common on the empties. Full milk tankers were pretty heavy and needed to reach London as quickly as possible so extra vehicles were normally avoided if possible.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: martyn on December 14, 2014, 02:22:08 PM
Another option for the brake van is the Thompson match board full brake (BG), available as an Ultima kit. Sorry if I'm repeating (I can't get back to the earlier posts) but the forthcoming Society Thompson steel BG is also suitable.
I think the Stove R may also have got to the Eastern region, but I can't offhand find a photo to prove it.
Martyn
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: martyn on December 14, 2014, 03:06:49 PM
A very quick perusal of some of my East Anglian albums shows photos of the following used as brake vans on milk trains;
Mk 1 BG
Thompson match board BG
LMS (Stanier) 50' BG
LMS 42' CCT (Ultima)
Either a Stove R or the Thompson 6-wheeler (Ultima)(can't tell from the photo; too angled)
Southern  4 wheeled van (CCT)
Gresley BG
Trains: the shortest appears to be a Claud, two tanks and a BG ;the longest a B17, four tanks and eight BGs of various sorts, or an L1, Mk1 BG, SR CCT, and ten tanks.
Martyn
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on December 14, 2014, 06:51:10 PM
Do you have a reference for the Mk1 on milk train duty? That would be quite interesting as I have only seen pre-nationalisation types before.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: martyn on December 14, 2014, 07:37:13 PM
Karhedron;

References for Mk1 BG on milk trains;

'55 years of East Anglian steam' by Dr I Allen, Oxford Publishing Co. ISBN 086093 182 X;
 plate 218; an L1 hauling, in order, Mk1 BG, SR CCT, 4 wheel box van, then about ten milk tanks; train is down Sunday Halesworth milk train, near Wickham Market (East Suffolk line, Ipswich-Gt Yarmouth/Lowestoft); undated.
The same book has at least two more photos of the down train, which ran as a mixed milk empties/parcels on weekdays, and the parcels section has at least one Mk1 BG in it, in both cases.

'East Anglian branch line album'; Dr Ian Allen; OPC; ISBN 0 86093 013 0
Plate 89; a J15 hauling two tanks, and what looks like a Mk1 BG; (the angle is a bit acute)(underframe detailing looks wrong for ex LNER or LMS vehicles; no truss rods visible, suggesting Mk1); train is North Elmham milk (Norfolk), passing through Dereham; dated August 1960.

I may have other photos, but I've also got a lot of books to look through if you wanted further references.................and I've only got ten days leave!

The L1-hauled train is by far the clearest photo, albeit on the down empties. Other photos have some distortion caused by the angle of the photo, the classic 3/4 shot of the loco.

It is noticeable that a number of ex -LMS NPCS vehicles became quite common in East Anglia.

HTH

Martyn
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ten0G on March 30, 2015, 10:16:31 AM
What about the Western Region milk trains .?

Almost always a GWR-pattern full brake. The Collett K41 from the NGS or the Hawksworth K45 on the way from Farish would fit the bill nicely. The Colletts in particular are being done in a range of liveries to suit the 1930s onwards.

The Collett liveries look very good  :drool:, may well have to order more than one!  But can anyone please tell me how long plain crimson would have lasted in regard to milk trains?  I'm mostly interested in the fifties, the blood and custard one would place my layout in the Carmarthen area rather than Devon!   :confused2:

Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on March 30, 2015, 10:26:59 AM
But can anyone please tell me how long plain crimson would have lasted in regard to milk trains?  I'm mostly interested in the fifties, the blood and custard one would place my layout in the Carmarthen area rather than Devon!   :confused2:
I wish I could. We found annecodotal evidence of Collett brakes in plain crimson but I struggled to find photographci evidence of them. It seems to have been something that happened shortly after nationalisation that some paint shops were unsure what should be plain crimson and what should be crimson/cream (hence some auto coaches being turned out in crimson/cream until Swindon were told to stop it ;) ).

Some BGs had been painted plain brown in GWR days and this application of plain livery seemed to carry on for a while in BR days but with Crimson instead of chocolate. Certainly some K46s received plain crimson and were photographed in it. But the simple answer to your question is that I do not know how long plain crimson lasted. I don't think it was a common livery based on the scarcity of photographs.

However, the advantage of that situation is that it is unlikely anyone will be able to prove you wrong.  8)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on March 30, 2015, 10:30:22 AM
Also, it was not unknown for brake vehicles to wander off their labelled routes. Maintenance, or stock availability could easily result in vehicles covering other areas. If you prefer crimson and cream, you could easily justify it without having to change your layout setting.

I did suggest W142 in crimson and cream which was branded for the Penzance to Kensington milk train but the NGS felt that might be a little restrictive.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ten0G on April 01, 2015, 02:36:16 AM
Thanks, I suppose it's a bit premature to hope there'll be a 2nd run any time soon that includes an unbranded B&C one! 

Back to the drawing board armchair, I think :-\
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on April 01, 2015, 09:03:35 AM
Thanks, I suppose it's a bit premature to hope there'll be a 2nd run any time soon that includes an unbranded B&C one!

Probably a bit. ;)

Part of the problem is the shortage of photographs of the prototype. Film was expensive in the early 50s and railway photographers tended not to use it on unglamourous subjects like brake coaches.

When I was working with Ben A to identify which running numbers to select, I was asked to find vehicles without specific route branding for preference. However this was not possible in all cases from the photos available so we had to make do with those we could identify.

I have a database of route brandings for these vehicles but it is not entirely complete. For example, there is no way of telling if a vehicle without branding had no branding or its branding is not recorded. To complicate matters even further, the WR was inconsistent in its application of running numbers. The BR coach livery spec had numbers at the opposite end of the vehicles to GWR practice. However many early examples rolled out Swindon numbers at the "wrong" end. Also some vehicles had running numbers Wxxxx which should have been WxxxxW.

With all these inconsistencies we decided it was better to work from photographs than risk producing something that had the details wrong. I realise this sort of decision is always going to be subjective. We opted to go for accuracy since even a vehicle with specific route brandings could sometimes be seen off its branded route for any number of reasons. A route branding that is incorrect for the location modeled is probably better than an inaccurate vehicle. After all, how many people buy locos that actually worked in the area where their layout is set? Some people like that level of attention to detail but for many modelers, the right class of loco in the right livery is close enough, even if that particular example may not actually have worked that location.

As for restrictive route brandings, at least we did not produce this example which is branded "To work 8.55 PM Paddington to Cardiff 1.48 PM Cardiff to Paddington". :D

(http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/p/121/passenger-brake-van-no-166-8053035.jpg)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ten0G on April 12, 2015, 03:31:54 AM
Oh, the burden of being a GW enthusiast :sweat:  I don't suppose that "To work 8.55 PM Paddington to Cardiff 1.48 PM Cardiff to Paddington" would fit in with most people's weekday routines!  Sundays only?!

On a more serious note, I've been looking at pics on Osborn's website and note they now do packs for both LMS and GW milk trains.  The LMS verion has a full brake coach, whereas the GW one has a siphon G.  Both seem to have identical tankers.  IIRC there were differences between LMS and GW designs, but my reference book is back home and I can't recall which type these are.   :doh:

Perhaps by c1958 they were both being used outside their areas, but the areas I'm currently interested in are S.W. Wales or Devon so I'd like to have the right type(s).  Any comments would be very welcome please.   :help:
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on April 12, 2015, 08:17:29 PM
There are differences between milk tankers from different regions and different dairies but the Dapol model is simply a generic effort that does not represent a particular diagram.

Express diaries operated on both the LMS and GWR so are fine in respect of livery. The LMS brake coach is fine for a milk train. The GWR siphon is suitable for a milk train as these vehicles were built for carrying milk churns. However they contained no Guard's accommodation so a brake coach would still be needed.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: talisman56 on April 12, 2015, 08:27:20 PM
A very quick perusal of some of my East Anglian albums shows photos of the following used as brake vans on milk trains;
Mk 1 BG
Thompson match board BG
LMS (Stanier) 50' BG
LMS 42' CCT (Ultima)
Either a Stove R or the Thompson 6-wheeler (Ultima)(can't tell from the photo; too angled)
Southern  4 wheeled van (CCT)
Gresley BG
Trains: the shortest appears to be a Claud, two tanks and a BG ;the longest a B17, four tanks and eight BGs of various sorts, or an L1, Mk1 BG, SR CCT, and ten tanks.
Martyn


The SR 'CCT' and 'PMV' vehicles could not be used singly in Milk trains as the 'Brake vehicle' as they were goods vans only, they did not have Guards/Brake facilities. The equivalent vehicle which could be used on Milk trains would be the BY/Van 'C'.

CCT: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srcct/hd74357b#hd74357b (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srcct/hd74357b#hd74357b)
PMV: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv/h1a82f05a#h1a82f05a (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv/h1a82f05a#h1a82f05a)
BY/Van 'C': http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srby/h399adca5#h399adca5 (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srby/h399adca5#h399adca5)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: davidinyork on April 14, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
On a related theme, when were milk churns carried from rural stations until, and what sort of vehicle were these normally carried in in the latter days?
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: EtchedPixels on April 14, 2015, 07:43:21 PM
Not sure on date but usually well ventilated vans.. often bogie ones. The classic GWR ones being the siphon wagons
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Dancess on April 14, 2015, 09:31:58 PM
You might find the following interesting.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/7-fops/fo-milk.htm (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/7-fops/fo-milk.htm)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: CarriageShed on April 16, 2015, 05:03:12 PM
On a related theme, when were milk churns carried from rural stations until, and what sort of vehicle were these normally carried in in the latter days?

Without checking in detail, four-wheel milk tanks were introduced in the late 1920s and six-wheel versions in the very early 1930s, at least on the S&DJR and Southern (and probably LMS too). That would have seen the end of milk churns.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: davidinyork on April 16, 2015, 05:06:24 PM
On a related theme, when were milk churns carried from rural stations until, and what sort of vehicle were these normally carried in in the latter days?

Without checking in detail, four-wheel milk tanks were introduced in the late 1920s and six-wheel versions in the very early 1930s, at least on the S&DJR and Southern (and probably LMS too). That would have seen the end of milk churns.

But would smaller rural stations have had the facilities to be able to fill the tanks?
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on April 16, 2015, 07:03:50 PM
On a related theme, when were milk churns carried from rural stations until, and what sort of vehicle were these normally carried in in the latter days?
Without checking in detail, four-wheel milk tanks were introduced in the late 1920s and six-wheel versions in the very early 1930s, at least on the S&DJR and Southern (and probably LMS too). That would have seen the end of milk churns.
But would smaller rural stations have had the facilities to be able to fill the tanks?
No, it took a long time for smaller facilities to be upgraded or phased out of use. Milk churn traffic continued long after the introduction of tankers (which initially worked only from the newest facilities). What really put the writing on the wall for churn traffic was the footplate strike of 1955. Milk in churns was not cooled and insulated the way tanker milk was and so was prone to spoiling. The last date I have for churn traffic was 1961 but it would have been pretty rare for a few years before that date.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ten0G on April 20, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
The milk tankers from Moreton-in-the-Marsh were attached behind the Paddington express but I am not sure how long this arrangement lasted. I believe it was still the practice in the early 50s but I have not been able to find out if it lasted into the 60s.

I'm curious to know if this was the Cathedrals Express.  How many tankers, and where do you think they came off, please? 

It's been a few years since I travelled that way, I hear the track's finally been doubled again. 
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on April 20, 2015, 11:54:25 AM
I believe that the maximum number of tankers attached at one time from Moreton-in-the-Marsh was 3.

As to where they came off, there are a couple of options. It was a United Dairies/Unigate facility so they would probably have gone to a matching bottling plant, my guess would be Wood Lane but there were other Unigate bottling plants in London. In fact there may have been some variation so as to balance the flow of milk with the demand at the various bottling plants.

I suspect that they probably ran through and were detached at Paddington, I doubt they would have stopped a passenger express a few miles out just to detach tankers. From there they might have been tripped directly to the bottling plant. More likely though is that they were tripped to Kensington Olympia which acted as a marshalling yard for milk traffic.

Trains running into London were normally a mix of tankers from different dairies as the routes of milk trains rarely supported single-dairy trains (apart from the 70s where only Unigate and Express Dairies remained in operation). These trains would be tripped to Olympia and then sorted by company before being tripped to the relevant bottling plant (probably along with tankers from other routes). The reverse operation occurred on the outbound journey but with fewer trains as empty milk tankers were much lighter and could be marshalled into longer trains. Also, they did not need to run so fast without their perishable contents.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ten0G on August 20, 2015, 10:35:34 PM
The milk tankers from Moreton-in-the-Marsh were attached behind the Paddington express but I am not sure how long this arrangement lasted. I believe it was still the practice in the early 50s but I have not been able to find out if it lasted into the 60s.

Apparently, after 1959 four and six wheeled goods vehicles were banned from passenger trains: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956)

See para.2 under "Operations."
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on August 21, 2015, 07:01:02 PM
Ah but milk tankers were not goods vehicles. They were NPCCS and so the restriction on freight vehicles in passenger trains did not apply.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: leachsprite4 on September 05, 2015, 09:41:06 PM
This has been a very helpful thread combined with the other discussions on milk tankers. My two four wheel ones are destined for engine shed duties to hold water for boiler washouts.

So I could run my milk tankers, a siphon and collet full break as one train?

Graham
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on September 05, 2015, 10:17:25 PM
So I could run my milk tankers, a siphon and collet full break as one train?

Yup, that would be a perfectly prototypical train. In fact here is a Castle hauling just such a train in the mid 50s.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee199/Karhedronuk/4077_milk_zps8ulia8u9.jpg)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: leachsprite4 on September 05, 2015, 10:57:50 PM
Happy days, now where is that farish castle  of mine :hmmm:
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: MalcolmInN on September 05, 2015, 11:13:10 PM
So I could run my milk tankers, a siphon and collet full break as one train?
Yup, that would be a perfectly prototypical train. In fact here is a Castle hauling just such a train in the mid 50s.
All very interesting.
Do you have a higher res pic of that ?
what are the 3 ? behind
Not sure if it is 3 ( or 4 to count the fuzzy blob  between them ! )
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on September 05, 2015, 11:22:04 PM
Sorry, no higher res available. The consist looks like 8 tankers, a collett full brake, another tanker and 2  Siphons. I cannot make out the Siphons very well but they might be Siphon Gs.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: MalcolmInN on September 05, 2015, 11:32:14 PM
Quote from: Karhedron link=topic=25170.msg329995#msg329995 date=1441
491724
Sorry, no higher res available. The consist looks like 8 tankers, a collett full brake, another tanker and 2  Siphons. I cannot make out the Siphons very well but they might be Siphon Gs.
Ah thanks,
I was expecting a brake at the rear end and was (in my innocence!) getting confusled !
/
But in other words - a lot! of milk !!
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on September 05, 2015, 11:42:59 PM
I was expecting a brake at the rear end and was (in my innocence!) getting confusled !
Like passenger stock, milk tankers were continuously braked so the actual brake vehicle could be anywhere in the formation. I believe that some effort was made to keep it near the rear of full trains as this provided a smoother ride for the guard but I cannot find a reference for that at the moment.

But in other words - a lot! of milk !!
Yup, that's 2700 gallons in the tankers alone plus whatever was in the siphons.

A full milk tanker weighed 28 tons. No wonder it took a big engine like a castle to shift a rake of those at sufficient speed to reach London before the contents curdled.  8)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ohlavache on September 22, 2015, 06:44:52 PM
As a break during my work, I've searched for pictures of milk trains and I've found these.

The one I prefer:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8697/16782162218_399478b403_b.jpg)
Photo by Andrew Shapland, https://www.flickr.com/photos/articdriver/16782162218/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/articdriver/16782162218/)

Two more from the same photographer:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/articdriver/16989007822/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/articdriver/16989007822/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/articdriver/16360306703/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/articdriver/16360306703/)

Three from Tim Symons:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/38178270@N07/4492141555/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/38178270@N07/4492141555/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/38178270@N07/7160944338/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/38178270@N07/7160944338/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/38178270@N07/7160904100/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/38178270@N07/7160904100/)

One from Crayzy Ray:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/crayzy_ray/7570065586/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/crayzy_ray/7570065586/)

One from David Pond:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68415577@N03/9530995375/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/68415577@N03/9530995375/)

And I would definitely recommend to check the other pictures from Andrew Shapland and Crayzy Ray. They are fantastic.
Enjoy !  :greatpicturessign:
Have a nice evening.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: joe cassidy on September 22, 2015, 06:53:40 PM
I think these photos are mostly recent, taken on preserved railways.

Best regards,


Joe
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 22, 2015, 07:01:01 PM
I was expecting a brake at the rear end and was (in my innocence!) getting confusled !
Like passenger stock, milk tankers were continuously braked so the actual brake vehicle could be anywhere in the formation. I believe that some effort was made to keep it near the rear of full trains as this provided a smoother ride for the guard but I cannot find a reference for that at the moment.

But in other words - a lot! of milk !!
Yup, that's 2700 gallons in the tankers alone plus whatever was in the siphons.

A full milk tanker weighed 28 tons. No wonder it took a big engine like a castle to shift a rake of those at sufficient speed to reach London before the contents curdled.  8)

And an A4 to/from Aberdeen......
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: painbrook on September 22, 2015, 07:41:51 PM
a recently bought book has a photo of a milk train, it shows 14 tankers with the brake in the middle. the brake was a 'Stove R' and the loco in charge was the 'City of Birmingham'.
Another photo shows a south Wales 'Blue Pullman' in Liverpool on a 'Grand National' special from Swansea. Both dated 1964. cheers john.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on September 23, 2015, 09:26:50 AM
And an A4 to/from Aberdeen......
Yup, the A4s did Stirling sterling work north of the border. ;)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3562/3530165513_281b4438a7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/6nX2dD)60004 WILLIAM WHITELAW near Aberdeen with the 1843 milk train to Perth 17 April 1964 (https://flic.kr/p/6nX2dD) by Charlie Verrall (https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 23, 2015, 09:32:46 AM
And an A4 to/from Aberdeen......
Yup, the A4s did Stirling sterling work north of the border. ;)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3562/3530165513_281b4438a7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/6nX2dD)60004 WILLIAM WHITELAW near Aberdeen with the 1843 milk train to Perth 17 April 1964 (https://flic.kr/p/6nX2dD) by Charlie Verrall (https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/), on Flickr

From what I've been able to gather, the Milk trains to Aberdeen were from the "Milk Fields" of Dumfries-shire, largely.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on September 23, 2015, 09:39:48 AM
From what I've been able to gather, the Milk trains to Aberdeen were from the "Milk Fields" of Dumfries-shire, largely.
Thanks, that is an interesting bit of info.  :thumbsup:

Information on milk trains is pretty sparse. Only the flows from the south west into London are documented in any kind of detail. The Scottish flows are barely mentioned and there was some traffic from east anglia into London as well. Also, there was a suprising amount of milk travelling between rural plants.

In the some months, excess production was normally sent to facilities such as Bailey Gate on the S&D and Appleby in Cumbria for converting into cheese and other processed dairy products. I have never seen these mentioned in print and only found out about them from deciphering the carriage working plans. Doubtless there are other flows I have not stumbled across yet.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Agrippa on September 23, 2015, 10:24:06 AM
url]60004 WILLIAM WHITELAW near Aberdeen with the 1843 milk train to Perth 17 April 1964 (https://flic.kr/p/6nX2dD) by Charlie Verrall (https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/), on Flickr

Jeez, that milk was 120 years old when it arrived in Perth........................
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Papyrus on September 23, 2015, 10:34:55 AM
 :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: johnlambert on September 23, 2015, 12:56:03 PM
From what I've been able to gather, the Milk trains to Aberdeen were from the "Milk Fields" of Dumfries-shire, largely.
Thanks, that is an interesting bit of info.  :thumbsup:

Information on milk trains is pretty sparse. Only the flows from the south west into London are documented in any kind of detail. The Scottish flows are barely mentioned and there was some traffic from east anglia into London as well. Also, there was a suprising amount of milk travelling between rural plants.

In the some months, excess production was normally sent to facilities such as Bailey Gate on the S&D and Appleby in Cumbria for converting into cheese and other processed dairy products. I have never seen these mentioned in print and only found out about them from deciphering the carriage working plans. Doubtless there are other flows I have not stumbled across yet.

Agreed about info on milk trains being sparse.  I've been trying to find out if there were any rail-served dairies in Birmingham that might have been served by traffic originating in the South Warwickshire area.  The only milk trains in the WTT (circa 1963, from memory) are the ones bound for London so there probably wasn't any milk traffic unless it went as part of another working.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on September 23, 2015, 01:21:31 PM
I haven't been able to find any references to milk inbound towards Birmingham. The rural areas around it seem to have dispatched their milk towards London such as this one at Egginton (although it has lost it rail connection by the time of this photo in 1968).

(http://www.old-dalby.com/images/67-189-25A%20egginton%20jcn.jpg)

I suspect that most cities apart from London received their milk by road from the surrounding areas. I know of very few rail-served bottling plants outside London.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 24, 2015, 09:59:16 PM
Only slightly OT, some countries still transport milk by rail, in large quantities. The land of my birth being one. Hopefully the OP won't mind me posting the following:

http://youtu.be/aH0Bq1hqLA4 (http://youtu.be/aH0Bq1hqLA4)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NinOz on September 25, 2015, 05:24:18 AM
Slightly off topic.
How did they remove the milk from the tankers?  Pipes at track level, flexible hoses, stand pipes on a platform?
Been searching for pictures of the rail side of milk depots to model but no luck yet.

CFJ
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NeMo on September 25, 2015, 06:47:50 AM
Through taps at one or both ends of the tanker. Fill from the top, empty from the bottom, logically enough! Sometimes nothing more than a clean hose on a station platform was used, most notoriously at Vauxhall.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/5375845579 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/5375845579)

But usually at some milk bottling plant or dairy processing factory, where emptying sometimes happened inside a shed of some sort.

Cheers, NeMo

Slightly off topic.
How did they remove the milk from the tankers?  Pipes at track level, flexible hoses, stand pipes on a platform?
Been searching for pictures of the rail side of milk depots to model but no luck yet.

CFJ
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: johnlambert on September 25, 2015, 07:35:39 AM
Fill from the top, empty from the bottom, logically enough!

You'd think, but I'm sure they weren't filled from the top as the churning effect could curdle the milk.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NinOz on September 25, 2015, 07:41:22 AM
Through taps at one or both ends of the tanker. Fill from the top, empty from the bottom, logically enough! Sometimes nothing more than a clean hose on a station platform was used, most notoriously at Vauxhall.
Excellent! Thank you. :thumbsup:
Stainless steel pipe work, hose and fittings washing station, flex hoses, water flush/wash hoses.

CFJ
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NeMo on September 25, 2015, 08:27:49 AM
Fill from the top, empty from the bottom, logically enough!
You'd think, but I'm sure they weren't filled from the top as the churning effect could curdle the milk.

I could well be wrong... never seen it being done live... but the photos I've seen have the cap open at top so churns could be emptied in. I'm sure it was pumped in too, perhaps more carefully to avoid the problem you suggest.

There's a photo of a filler cap open, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railway_Milk_Tank_Wagon#/media/File:United_Dairies_milk_tank_HK.JPG

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Sprintex on September 25, 2015, 09:22:46 AM
Fill from the top, empty from the bottom, logically enough!

You'd think, but I'm sure they weren't filled from the top as the churning effect could curdle the milk.

I may be able to provide some useful info here (for a change!) as I did some work on milk tankers as an HGV driver for Dairy Crest.

Our trailers had walkways and caps on top just like the rail tankers, but this was only ever used for 'dipping' for samples to be tested for disease or contamination before the load was accepted. Milk was always pumped in at the farms, and pumped out at the dairy, using the valve gear at the rear of the truck, so presumably rail tankers have something similar?

Much is made of the "churning effect" but you'd need to agitate the milk far more than that to affect it even slightly! We regularly did runs with only a part load (much worse than being full), and believe me with all the cornering, gear changes, and brake applications that a road journey involves that's a lot of sloshing about. In fact most of the time the truck never stopped oscillating back and forth even when stopped at trafficlights - a weird sensation to say the least ;)


Paul
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NeMo on September 25, 2015, 10:20:31 AM
This is very useful, albeit an American rather than British book:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VSoDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=filling+milk+rail+tanks&source=bl&ots=T9c8jxa_1Z&sig=vu6FGfMXxQBCVkAPn6bn2pOkhLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBWoVChMIvoecvuyRyAIVhSPbCh2WoAjz#v=onepage&q=filling%20milk%20rail%20tanks&f=false

Milk is filled via the manhole at the top, but the pipe from the manhole extends downwards almost to the bottom of the tank and through a floating mechanism that prevents splashing.

British tanks would seem to have been similar, and it turns out the cap at the top is indeed called the filling cap.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: REGP on October 31, 2015, 05:53:47 PM
I've got myself a bit confused over which livery would normally appear in which region.

I am sure at some point in one of the discussions it was suggested that the silver Unigate liveried milk tankers were most likely to be found on West Region metals whilst the Express Dairies ones would probably be on Midland Region (or was it the other way round?)

Although I've looked through the various Milk Train threads I can't find an actual reference to this, of course I could have simply missed it if didn't having flashing lights on it.

Can any one please point me to that reference or confirm if either of the above is correct.

Ray
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: JasonBz on October 31, 2015, 06:01:24 PM
I am pretty sure that Milk Tankers were filled from the bottom. Some chap who had done the job wrote into RM (probably) to enlighten the readership. The top entry was for hot water to clean the tanks out.
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NeMo on October 31, 2015, 06:11:00 PM
I am sure at some point in one of the discussions it was suggested that the silver Unigate liveried milk tankers were most likely to be found on West Region metals whilst the Express Dairies ones would probably be on Midland Region (or was it the other way round?)

Historically Express Dairies tankers ran on both the Western and the London Midland regions, whereas Unigate tankers seem to have been primarily seen on the Western Region and the Southern Region. So some overlap. If you're modelling the Western Region, you can use either without having to invoke Rule 1.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: REGP on October 31, 2015, 08:26:19 PM
Thanks NeMo, that's a great help especially as I am "loosely" modelling a joint X GWR / LMS line. I just need to get the loco & brake correct.

Ray
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on October 31, 2015, 09:21:06 PM
I've got myself a bit confused over which livery would normally appear in which region.

I am sure at some point in one of the discussions it was suggested that the silver Unigate liveried milk tankers were most likely to be found on West Region metals whilst the Express Dairies ones would probably be on Midland Region (or was it the other way round?)

Although I've looked through the various Milk Train threads I can't find an actual reference to this, of course I could have simply missed it if didn't having flashing lights on it.

Can any one please point me to that reference or confirm if either of the above is correct.
Here is a brief summary of which Dairies operated on which regions. The  whole issue is complicated by the fact that the history of the dairy industry is one of take-overs, mergers and consolidation but the list below gives a good indication of what could be found where.

GWR/WR:
United Dairies (later Unigate)
Express Dairies
Milk Marketing Board
Nestle
CWS Dairies

S&D:
United Dairies (later Unigate)
Milk Marketing Board

LMS:
Express Dairies
Nestle
Milk Marketing Board

SR:
Express Dairies
United Dairies (later Unigate)
Co-Op

LNER:
Co-op
Nestle
Express Dairies
United Dairies (later Unigate)

Great Central:
IMS
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: JasonBz on October 31, 2015, 09:48:43 PM
Slightly OT, but in reference to quantities of milk; something like a whole quarter of the "national herd" of dairy cattle live in the West Country - That is a lot of cows in two, maybe three, and a bit counties!
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: martyn on May 06, 2016, 05:30:39 PM
I'm surprised this has not been mentioned here before-the May 2016 Hornby magazine has an article dedicated to Milk train formations, which seem to be all BR era, but widely spread geographically. The article includes loco type, number of milk tanks, other vehicles in the formation, location, destination/origin, and date.
Martyn
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: Karhedron on May 09, 2017, 12:20:56 PM
Fill from the top, empty from the bottom, logically enough!


You'd think, but I'm sure they weren't filled from the top as the churning effect could curdle the milk.


Pretty sure tankers were top-filled. You can see the process in this photo from St Erth.

(http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/3297982_orig.jpg)

You can see the pipework for the top filling here at Torrington.

(http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/milk4.jpg)

And you can see top-filling here at Seaton too.

(http://www.umborne.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/image0-001.jpg)

(http://www.umborne.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/image0-002.jpg)
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: NeMo on May 09, 2017, 03:05:55 PM
@Karhedron (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207),

Yes, but the milk goes down a pipe to the bottom of the tanker, so the tanker slowly fills upwards from the bottom up. If you just poured the milk into a big empty tank without tubes or baffles, there's apparently an undesirable churning effect. Such, at least, is the case with milk tankers I could find out about.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
Post by: martyn on September 06, 2019, 04:39:33 PM
The 'Steam Railway' magazine issue 495 July-August 2019 has a photo of a J15 with the brake van being an LNER Thompson  52' non-corridor BS-available as Ultima/Etched Pixels kit.

Location North Elmham; photo believed to date from 1960.

Martyn
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