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Author Topic: Milk Train Brake Vans  (Read 17374 times)

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Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2014, 09:06:56 PM »
I can't find a Farish 'Stanier' full brake but there is a LMS 50ft full brake 374-887. Is that suitable Karhedron?

Yes, that is the one. They were designed by Stanier but Farish may simply refer to them as LMS full brakes.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline austinbob

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2014, 09:08:44 PM »
Thanks Karhedron - its in my shopping basket as we speak!
Size matters - especially if you don't have a lot of space - and N gauge is the answer!

Bob Austin

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2014, 09:10:19 PM »
Post-1968 they seem not have had a brake van or coach in them at all. Just the milk tanks. Numerous photos in, for example, in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line'. What did happen though was adding parcel and newspaper vans to the consist.

Not just a post-1968 phenomenon but more common on the empties. Full milk tankers were pretty heavy and needed to reach London as quickly as possible so extra vehicles were normally avoided if possible.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline martyn

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2014, 02:22:08 PM »
Another option for the brake van is the Thompson match board full brake (BG), available as an Ultima kit. Sorry if I'm repeating (I can't get back to the earlier posts) but the forthcoming Society Thompson steel BG is also suitable.
I think the Stove R may also have got to the Eastern region, but I can't offhand find a photo to prove it.
Martyn

Offline martyn

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2014, 03:06:49 PM »
A very quick perusal of some of my East Anglian albums shows photos of the following used as brake vans on milk trains;
Mk 1 BG
Thompson match board BG
LMS (Stanier) 50' BG
LMS 42' CCT (Ultima)
Either a Stove R or the Thompson 6-wheeler (Ultima)(can't tell from the photo; too angled)
Southern  4 wheeled van (CCT)
Gresley BG
Trains: the shortest appears to be a Claud, two tanks and a BG ;the longest a B17, four tanks and eight BGs of various sorts, or an L1, Mk1 BG, SR CCT, and ten tanks.
Martyn
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 03:10:41 PM by martyn, Reason: Wrong designation of vehicle type »

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2014, 06:51:10 PM »
Do you have a reference for the Mk1 on milk train duty? That would be quite interesting as I have only seen pre-nationalisation types before.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline martyn

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2014, 07:37:13 PM »
Karhedron;

References for Mk1 BG on milk trains;

'55 years of East Anglian steam' by Dr I Allen, Oxford Publishing Co. ISBN 086093 182 X;
 plate 218; an L1 hauling, in order, Mk1 BG, SR CCT, 4 wheel box van, then about ten milk tanks; train is down Sunday Halesworth milk train, near Wickham Market (East Suffolk line, Ipswich-Gt Yarmouth/Lowestoft); undated.
The same book has at least two more photos of the down train, which ran as a mixed milk empties/parcels on weekdays, and the parcels section has at least one Mk1 BG in it, in both cases.

'East Anglian branch line album'; Dr Ian Allen; OPC; ISBN 0 86093 013 0
Plate 89; a J15 hauling two tanks, and what looks like a Mk1 BG; (the angle is a bit acute)(underframe detailing looks wrong for ex LNER or LMS vehicles; no truss rods visible, suggesting Mk1); train is North Elmham milk (Norfolk), passing through Dereham; dated August 1960.

I may have other photos, but I've also got a lot of books to look through if you wanted further references.................and I've only got ten days leave!

The L1-hauled train is by far the clearest photo, albeit on the down empties. Other photos have some distortion caused by the angle of the photo, the classic 3/4 shot of the loco.

It is noticeable that a number of ex -LMS NPCS vehicles became quite common in East Anglia.

HTH

Martyn
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:18:50 PM by martyn »

Online ten0G

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2015, 10:16:31 AM »
What about the Western Region milk trains .?

Almost always a GWR-pattern full brake. The Collett K41 from the NGS or the Hawksworth K45 on the way from Farish would fit the bill nicely. The Colletts in particular are being done in a range of liveries to suit the 1930s onwards.

The Collett liveries look very good  :drool:, may well have to order more than one!  But can anyone please tell me how long plain crimson would have lasted in regard to milk trains?  I'm mostly interested in the fifties, the blood and custard one would place my layout in the Carmarthen area rather than Devon!   :confused2:


Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2015, 10:26:59 AM »
But can anyone please tell me how long plain crimson would have lasted in regard to milk trains?  I'm mostly interested in the fifties, the blood and custard one would place my layout in the Carmarthen area rather than Devon!   :confused2:
I wish I could. We found annecodotal evidence of Collett brakes in plain crimson but I struggled to find photographci evidence of them. It seems to have been something that happened shortly after nationalisation that some paint shops were unsure what should be plain crimson and what should be crimson/cream (hence some auto coaches being turned out in crimson/cream until Swindon were told to stop it ;) ).

Some BGs had been painted plain brown in GWR days and this application of plain livery seemed to carry on for a while in BR days but with Crimson instead of chocolate. Certainly some K46s received plain crimson and were photographed in it. But the simple answer to your question is that I do not know how long plain crimson lasted. I don't think it was a common livery based on the scarcity of photographs.

However, the advantage of that situation is that it is unlikely anyone will be able to prove you wrong.  8)
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2015, 10:30:22 AM »
Also, it was not unknown for brake vehicles to wander off their labelled routes. Maintenance, or stock availability could easily result in vehicles covering other areas. If you prefer crimson and cream, you could easily justify it without having to change your layout setting.

I did suggest W142 in crimson and cream which was branded for the Penzance to Kensington milk train but the NGS felt that might be a little restrictive.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Online ten0G

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2015, 02:36:16 AM »
Thanks, I suppose it's a bit premature to hope there'll be a 2nd run any time soon that includes an unbranded B&C one! 

Back to the drawing board armchair, I think :-\
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 03:25:56 AM by ten0G »

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2015, 09:03:35 AM »
Thanks, I suppose it's a bit premature to hope there'll be a 2nd run any time soon that includes an unbranded B&C one!

Probably a bit. ;)

Part of the problem is the shortage of photographs of the prototype. Film was expensive in the early 50s and railway photographers tended not to use it on unglamourous subjects like brake coaches.

When I was working with Ben A to identify which running numbers to select, I was asked to find vehicles without specific route branding for preference. However this was not possible in all cases from the photos available so we had to make do with those we could identify.

I have a database of route brandings for these vehicles but it is not entirely complete. For example, there is no way of telling if a vehicle without branding had no branding or its branding is not recorded. To complicate matters even further, the WR was inconsistent in its application of running numbers. The BR coach livery spec had numbers at the opposite end of the vehicles to GWR practice. However many early examples rolled out Swindon numbers at the "wrong" end. Also some vehicles had running numbers Wxxxx which should have been WxxxxW.

With all these inconsistencies we decided it was better to work from photographs than risk producing something that had the details wrong. I realise this sort of decision is always going to be subjective. We opted to go for accuracy since even a vehicle with specific route brandings could sometimes be seen off its branded route for any number of reasons. A route branding that is incorrect for the location modeled is probably better than an inaccurate vehicle. After all, how many people buy locos that actually worked in the area where their layout is set? Some people like that level of attention to detail but for many modelers, the right class of loco in the right livery is close enough, even if that particular example may not actually have worked that location.

As for restrictive route brandings, at least we did not produce this example which is branded "To work 8.55 PM Paddington to Cardiff 1.48 PM Cardiff to Paddington". :D

Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Online ten0G

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2015, 03:31:54 AM »
Oh, the burden of being a GW enthusiast :sweat:  I don't suppose that "To work 8.55 PM Paddington to Cardiff 1.48 PM Cardiff to Paddington" would fit in with most people's weekday routines!  Sundays only?!

On a more serious note, I've been looking at pics on Osborn's website and note they now do packs for both LMS and GW milk trains.  The LMS verion has a full brake coach, whereas the GW one has a siphon G.  Both seem to have identical tankers.  IIRC there were differences between LMS and GW designs, but my reference book is back home and I can't recall which type these are.   :doh:

Perhaps by c1958 they were both being used outside their areas, but the areas I'm currently interested in are S.W. Wales or Devon so I'd like to have the right type(s).  Any comments would be very welcome please.   :help:
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 12:41:20 PM by ten0G »

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2015, 08:17:29 PM »
There are differences between milk tankers from different regions and different dairies but the Dapol model is simply a generic effort that does not represent a particular diagram.

Express diaries operated on both the LMS and GWR so are fine in respect of livery. The LMS brake coach is fine for a milk train. The GWR siphon is suitable for a milk train as these vehicles were built for carrying milk churns. However they contained no Guard's accommodation so a brake coach would still be needed.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline talisman56

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Re: Milk Train Brake Vans
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2015, 08:27:20 PM »
A very quick perusal of some of my East Anglian albums shows photos of the following used as brake vans on milk trains;
Mk 1 BG
Thompson match board BG
LMS (Stanier) 50' BG
LMS 42' CCT (Ultima)
Either a Stove R or the Thompson 6-wheeler (Ultima)(can't tell from the photo; too angled)
Southern  4 wheeled van (CCT)
Gresley BG
Trains: the shortest appears to be a Claud, two tanks and a BG ;the longest a B17, four tanks and eight BGs of various sorts, or an L1, Mk1 BG, SR CCT, and ten tanks.
Martyn


The SR 'CCT' and 'PMV' vehicles could not be used singly in Milk trains as the 'Brake vehicle' as they were goods vans only, they did not have Guards/Brake facilities. The equivalent vehicle which could be used on Milk trains would be the BY/Van 'C'.

CCT: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srcct/hd74357b#hd74357b
PMV: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv/h1a82f05a#h1a82f05a
BY/Van 'C': http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srby/h399adca5#h399adca5
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 09:19:57 PM by talisman56 »
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