The way I view DCC is like this. Each chip is basically a DC controller, fed 16vac through the track (as most hand held DC controllers are), and pre-programmed and controlled by the DCC system.

If you look at it this way it helps to explain why chips are expensive, and like DC controllers those with better performance are generally more expensive than more basic versions.

Izzy

This has been a great debate so far from all.

QuoteI am worried that some novice members may have spent loads on new DCC equipment as advised - just run a train round an oval, when a £30 DC controller would have done the same job......

This to me is why people need to look at their future plans.Go back to day one when you decided you wanted to join the happy band of enthusiasts that you met at the local Train Fest. Most of those layouts would have been DC. So the argument that DCC gets you more control or easier control isn't really valid.

I suspect 80% or more buy DCC for one of four reasons.

• Easy to have more than one loco running at differing speeds. But just wait till you're got three or four locos running and you suddenly need to change something - slow a loco down, stop at a station. You might find you need the reactions of a game player from Call of Duty, the memory of an elephant to remember the all the loco addresses and the button pushing control of a high speed mobile phone SMS sender to get the sequences in quick enough. And that's without adding all the turnout info.
  DCC does give you the ability to adjust you loco to run at a more prototypical speed/accel/decel/crawl etc. But it takes time and effort to learn about and adjust those pesky CV's. It doesn't necessarily make for smooth easy operation of your layout. That's why there is a STOP ALL button.
  How many of use change many of the presets that the decoders come with other than the address. So it could be said DCC takes the skill out of learning to controlling your loco.



• Layout control - great misconception. I have mentioned this elsewhere on the forum and at the fear of repeating myself. Yes DCC can, but refer to the bit above about memory and button pressing skills. Bloody hard work with one controller. I have have sold my turnout controls and gone back to manual.
  Am I aiming for total automation ?




• Sound.. Everyone likes to hear the sounds of a layout, locos chuffing/humming, whistles blasting. It comes at  price and good surround sound can be as effective and a lot cheaper. Many of the newer sound boards will run automatically under DC and there are simple Bell/Horn units that can trigger the relevant CVs if wanted. Again ££s less than a DCC controller.
  How many of us look to see the options on sound ?



• Less wiring....NOT less amount - less complex. Droppers need to be run in the same way Block Feeds are required for DC (possibly more)
  How many run just the bare minimum ?

The first is the most critical and influential. DC layouts are no harder to design and DCC layouts require every bit as much planning. Electrics will be more of a challenge, but that is the first major choice of your enjoyment/involvement. As the quote says - simple oval:simple controller.

A certain amount will look to full automation and for a single owner of a large railway DCC offers that but the cost - another small detail most dealers forget to mention. We all dream about our own large layout, but don't have the room or the wallet.

I can fully understand why people revert back to DC in the same way newbies start out with DCC and I wish all a happy trouble free time with whatever system they have or revert/upgrade to. No doubt some will agree and some disagree with this offering, but hey that's why this forum is good fun.

REMEMBER RULE ONE.

Back into the debate!!
TDU, you're absolutely right when you say newcomers should consider their future plans, and of course some will cast their imagination a deal further than others.  The reason I'm following this debate (originally posted by a fellow who was 'returning' to DC) and hopefully adding to it in a positive way, is that I myself started out about 4 years or so ago with a DC controller and a couple of DC loco's.  I purchased them from my 'local' dealer (20 miles hence), who conveniently neglected to inform me that in the forty or so years since I last dallied with model railways that a nice system enigmatically called 'DCC' had been invented.
I'm not 'blaming' them, or anybody, it was my fault for nor researching the subject (given the vast array of info available to one on t'internet, it was my own fault!) Once I had glimpsed the possibilities for myself, it re-awoke in me all those childhood imaginings, of computer control, automation etc etc.  In other words, it appealed to the technology lover in me, the very thought that the kind of things I'd dreamed of all those years ago as a young lad could now be achieved, albeit with a little research.
So I had my method of control, I just need to purchase the hardware!  That was a little more tricky, and I can't really remember why I plumped for the NCE Powercab, I think because it appeared to be the only true 'one handed' controller, oh, and it 'looked' nice!  I did consider the Gaugemaster outfit, but that is not truly a one handed operator/controller, and the other 'nice' German stuff (Vorsprung durch Technik!) was out of my price bracket at that point in time!

Well, 3 years or so on, and I don't regret it one bit.  I only had to purchase a USB connection module, which allowed me to tap the power of my iMac.  These days, I can honestly say that I use my computer to control my trains 90% of the time, simply because I can see the info on the screen, so I know what is happening all the time.
If I want to do a little shunting on a siding, I grab my Powercab, select the loco, and finesse it's movements that way, it has a nice 'feel' to it.
On the horizon is automation, albeit in a two stage process.  Firstly I need to motorise my points, (using Tortoise/Cobalt style motors) then hook them up to my PC using JMRI/NCE to control routes for my trains.   Once that's been done, I then need to install block detectors/feedback to the system to detect the trains in motion so that (hopefully) the two can be automated at some point.  I'd say it's a couple of years off for me, 'cause I don't move too fast these days! 
Could I go back to DC?  Very simple answer, NO!

P.S Speaking as somebody who also believes in global cooperation and standardisation, it pleases me greatly to see a system that encompasses all that's good in human ingenuity, brought together in one package.

I have just got round to watching the free DVD in Hornby mag about their DCC system. Leaving aside the scenes of OO locos going around impossible radii and just concentrating on the pre-programmed sequence of starts, toots, going, and stopping, DCC has the potential to reduce the experience to that of a casual observer or train spotter. Can be made to be boring. If that's what you want I suppose DCC can surely deliver it. So thinking about it DC and DCC are quite different products for different people. DCC is not, in my view, merely a development beyond DC. You are either a DC person or a DCC person much the same as automatic gearchange people (cars) or clutch and gear lever people.

I can afford the price of an automatic car - I just don't want one. The more I see of DCC the more I come to realise I just don't want it - it's just not me.

Quote from: Izzy on February 02, 2014, 09:24:13 PM
The way I view DCC is like this. Each chip is basically a DC controller, fed 16vac through the track (as most hand held DC controllers are), and pre-programmed and controlled by the DCC system.

If you look at it this way it helps to explain why chips are expensive, and like DC controllers those with better performance are generally more expensive than more basic versions.

Izzy

Sorry, but I can't let this pass.

I doubt if the manufacturing cost of the most expensive DCC controller (including with sound) exceeds £2 - £3.

...R

Quote from: ParkeNd on February 03, 2014, 09:13:49 AM
I have just got round to watching the free DVD in Hornby mag about their DCC system. Leaving aside the scenes of OO locos going around impossible radii and just concentrating on the pre-programmed sequence of starts, toots, going, and stopping, DCC has the potential to reduce the experience to that of an casual observer or train spotter. Can be made to be boring.

I thought Hornby were synonymous with 'Train sets', as opposed to GF/Bachmann/Dapol et-al aimed at the more serious enthusiast?  At least they were back in the 60's/70's.
Anyhow, I personally would love to see my layout come alive with trains starting/running/stopping etc emerging from tunnels, but as I operate it on my own, that would never happen without some kind of automation in play, even in it's most basic form of a shuttle, going back and forth.

Quote from: ngauger on February 03, 2014, 09:28:30 AM

Quote from: ParkeNd on February 03, 2014, 09:13:49 AM
I have just got round to watching the free DVD in Hornby mag about their DCC system. Leaving aside the scenes of OO locos going around impossible radii and just concentrating on the pre-programmed sequence of starts, toots, going, and stopping, DCC has the potential to reduce the experience to that of an casual observer or train spotter. Can be made to be boring.

I thought Hornby were synonymous with 'Train sets', as opposed to GF/Bachmann/Dapol et-al aimed at the more serious enthusiast?  At least they were back in the 60's/70's.
Anyhow, I personally would love to see my layout come alive with trains starting/running/stopping etc emerging from tunnels, but as I operate it on my own, that would never happen without some kind of automation in play, even in it's most basic form of a shuttle, going back and forth.

As I have gone on to say DCC seems to be neither better nor worse than DC. It's for different people in my view.

Hornby are just different from us by being OO aren't they. Not sure they are just about kiddy trainset toys?

This DC - DCC debate will go on for ever as long as there's old blokes like me around. I take the view that, just like mobile phone technology, if model railways are around in 50 years time, then they will all be digital.

It's the likes of me that are probably slowing down the change over!

If I was starting out, I wouldn't give the issue a moment's thought. I would go DCC.

As I have posted many times, I am stuck with an aging layout which is DC. End of story.

I would love DCC. As for Hornby 00 being train sets, I started out with a Triang one. In this day and age of computer games and weird phone apps, I think that if Hornby are still selling train sets, it is enormously encouraging for the hobby.

To reply to the thread, I don't have to go back to DC. It's a dinosaur I'm stuck with. (But I secretly like section switches and wiring up live frogs and having wiring looms as thick as me arm.....)

For me, one of the best layouts on the forum is that of Whiteswan.
The effects created are superb and the standard of modelling extremely high but I would like to think most can be created in DC as well as DCC so as an old DC fart I still have targets to reach for.
I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that". Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it, is to make me change my mind on that
This is a very good thread, and should be made compulsory reading for anyone starting out in the hobby

Quote from: newportnobby on February 03, 2014, 11:14:48 AM
For me, one of the best layouts on the forum is that of Whiteswan.
The effects created are superb and the standard of modelling extremely high but I would like to think most can be created in DC as well as DCC so as an old DC fart I still have targets to reach for.
I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that". Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it, is to make me change my mind on that
This is a very good thread, and should be made compulsory reading for anyone starting out in the hobby

Sound, now there's a subject!  I don't know much about DCC and sound, other than I've heard it exists.  I must admit I've often idly pressed the horn/whistle panel on my DCC PC setup to a deafening silence, and thought how nice it would be to hear a friendly retort!  I had an idea a while ago (danger, warning!) whilst considering the possibilities of sound, that it ought to be possible to call up recorded sound files to create a 'tapestry' of background sound, and this would be accessed through your PC much like a digital audio workstation.  THe 'tracks' could be played and triggered at specific events, i.e when a certain loco hits a certain block etc.  Of course hitting the horn button on your controller or screen would emit the requisite horn sound from an archive of that particular (real) loco.  All of this of course would come from a pair of speakers (or 5.1 surround sound ideally!) for a totally immersive experience.  Much like how some museums & galleries arrange sound for some exhibits.
Food for thought maybe?

Take care

Andy

P.S I didn't intend any slur on Hornby products, of which I have had several in the past, merely made a comment based on my old and inaccurate preconceptions!  Naughty me.

Well this ageing old fart is not stopping in his tracks I love the complexity of DCC and yes the initial outlay is great if you are going to go down the automated route but hey you can drive the trains yourself or turn the pc on and sit back and enjoy, Whiteswan has been giving me some advice regards automation, and I thank her sincerely the lady has a vast knowledge on this subject, but I could never go down the DC route ever again, if your stuck in 40 years ago technology that is fine and it is each to there own, but please no one should tell people you should do this and that, at the end of the day its your choice and if your happy with it so be it.

This is one great thread and it is a joy to put my tuppence worth in, and as long as we are having fun playing trains that is fine by me.

By the way 

I am pleased that the debate on this topic has sparked a good reaction keep up the good comments and ideas and we may all find some thing that will appeal or spark an idea.As i have said before dcc not for me but those that do use it keep up your good work.If i was starting again or new to the hobby there is a
good change i would go dcc.
kevin141

Quote from: newportnobby on February 03, 2014, 11:14:48 AM

I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that".

This! I don't know what it is inside of me, but every time I watch a video on youtube with a layout that is wired for sound it just seems...off. There's a disconnect in my mind. I know I'm seeing a "toy" and yet the sound is real. The feeling inside of me is almost more dissonance than disconnect. It gives me a weird feeling. I don't know if I'm making any sense.

Also, I actually like the little engine sounds and clickety-click of my N-Gauge rolling stock as they make their way around the track.

Great discussion! I love how everyone here can disagree and yet get along!

Quote from: scottmitchell74 on February 03, 2014, 02:07:23 PM

Quote from: newportnobby on February 03, 2014, 11:14:48 AM

I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that".

This! I don't know what it is inside of me, but every time I watch a video on youtube with a layout that is wired for sound it just seems...off. There's a disconnect in my mind. I know I'm seeing a "toy" and yet the sound is real. The feeling inside of me is almost more dissonance than disconnect. It gives me a weird feeling. I don't know if I'm making any sense.

Also, I actually like the little engine sounds and clickety-click of my N-Gauge rolling stock as they make their way around the track.

Great discussion! I love how everyone here can disagree and yet get along!

I think I concur with your rationale there Scott, and I also like the sound my stock makes, some areas are even pretty 'scale' with their 'clank-clank clank-clank' over the point-work!  However, taking railway modelling to it's base element, it is a form of 'escapism' is it not?  Something that mimics real life, without being a literal copy, so by that same token, I can envisage sound being used as a backdrop, you  know the sort of thing, station sounds, tannoys, chatter, door clanking etc, close your eyes, and you're there, therapy almost!!

Andy

I have a double set of points that gives off a great sound when a loco with a rake of coaches passes through. Makes me smile every time!

Blimey! I'm getting withdrawal symptoms, haven't playe run anything for months! 

Dave G