Gone back to dc

[ParkeNd]

A really interesting thread, so thanks to all the contributors.

Returning to the hobby after a very long break just over a year ago, I encountered the DC/DCC challenge a couple of months in to 'layout planning' and what has been a mad, fun-filled spending spree.

DCC sounded great but expensive so early on I opted for a Gaugemaster D controller. Now, with a collection of 30 locos and 12 of them definitely not DCC compatible, I've decided to stick with DC. Loads more wire but what the heck! 

Dave G

I too have the Gaugemaster D controller - and I got free sound with it - a loud hum!!  At no extra cost

[James C]

It should be fairly easy [...] with an Arduino Uno

Why re-invent the wheel though 

I should point out that my layout is done through a Sprog and JMRI, so I *have* to turn the PC on to play with mine, which makes DCC a little bit more of a PITA

No need ... get a Raspberry Pi and a small low-cost touch-screen, and use that instead ...  Move all the running of JMRI into the RasPi, and have the interface on the small screen (say a 7" one); or go headerless, and use a smartphone for the throttle ... or both    Have the screen for general usage, (inc internet such as reading this Forum  ) as well as the "front" of JMRI, and use a phone for playing with the layout 

Mike

I do use my 10" tablet & my smartphone for the throttle. I have thought about using RasPi but as my PC is on a lot of the time, (for the reading of this forum etc ) it's a case of running the USB cable across the room and getting JMRI up and running that's the "biggest" issue so not a lot different than having to get a RasPi working.

Either way, I am still happy with DCC

[Robin2]

As I said earlier, one of my hobbies is computer programming. I did have a look at JMRI but decided it was far more than I need so I wrote a simple program to use my PC (and smartphone via the browser) to control my trains through a Hornby Elite. Since then I have given up DCC and have modified my program to control my battery powered radio controlled trains.

I think there were two things that drove me to write a program that worked with the Elite. First, I couldn't/can't stand the idea of having to key in numbers to change locos. And second, I couldn't stand the control knobs on the Elite which rotate continuously and give no feedback of the throttle position. (If I had realized that I wouldn't have bought it in the first place).

At the moment I have three locos so I can select them by clicking one of "tank", "tender" or "dmu" - grey-cells not needed.

And by writing the program as a web application it runs on a smart-phone browser without any extra work.

I can think of no reason why it couldn't be adapted to control a traditional DC model railway in conjunction with an Arduino.

...R

[MikeDunn]

it's a case of running the USB cable across the room

Sounds like you have wireless in your house - the RasPi can be that too

Agreed - JMRI needs a level of setting up, but IIRC there is a build available for the RasPi that reduces this ?

Mike

[PostModN66]

I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear.  Just for general edification could someone point me in the direction of something that spells it out for the intelligent (?) but ignorant  layman?

Cheers  Jon 

[kevin141]

I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear.  Just for general edification could someone point me in the direction of something that spells it out for the intelligent (?) but ignorant  layman?

Cheers  Jon 

Me the same
kevin

[martink]

Over the years, some obscure control techniques other than DCC and DC cab control have also been used to good effect, especially on big American club layouts.  About fifteen years ago I built a layout using one of these techniques known as CCC (Computer Cab Control, or sometimes PCC - Progressive Cab Control).   This is basically plain vanilla cab control, but where the computer operates the cab switches (i.e. relays).  Each cab control section needs to be track circuited, and the computer needs to at least know the setting of each set of points and the position of each controllers' direction switch.  It is even easier if the points and throttles are computer controlled.

Once a loco is connected to a section and a controller, the computer looks at the direction switch and the point settings, and so knows what the next section should be and can switch that across to the same controller.  The operator simply drives the train until the track circuits report that the loco has entered the new section.  The computer then disconnects the old section and looks ahead for the next one.   

The result was a system that duplicated the key advantage of DCC - you just set the points and drive the trains, and without having to bother with those fiddly decoders.  The big drawback was that it required a hell of a lot of custom hardware and software.  Lesser issues were that you still didn't have DCC's complete freedom of action - you were still limited by the section structure of the layout, and where DCC's nemesis is short circuit faults, CCC's is locos overrunning their assigned sections.  On the other hand, the track circuits and the software's understanding of the track plan allowed all sorts of nifty features.

It had basic steam sound effects using speakers under the layout - since the computer knew where each loco was and what it was doing, the sounds could follow the trains around the layout.  Other features were cab signals on each controller, smart uncoupling (one uncouple button on each controller - the computer could figure out which magnet to activate), inertia that understands about gradients, etc.  It was always amusing watching a novice brake a train to a stop on a rising gradient and release the brakes - then watch panic set in when the train started to roll backwards down the hill!

If I didn't care to use the point switches, the points could be set from the controller handset.  Given the loco's current position and direction switch setting, there were always a limited number of possible routes.  Just count them off from the left and flick the brake switch that number of times!

There were other similarities with DCC, such as the need to find a way to attach a controller to a train.  I did that using the signal switches - if the computer saw that a train had a green signal but no driver, it flashed a "train available" led on each idle controller, so that an operator could push a button on the handset to accept the train.  If nobody responded within a fixed time, the computer started the train itself and ran it according to the signals.

That was my first really big electronics project, and there were some serious reliability and noise problems which would have required a full rebuild to resolve.  Also, it pretty much needed to be rebuilt from scratch for any new layout design, so I eventually shelved the system.  It is still there in the back of my mind (with the electronics gathering dust in the spare room) for possible future use.

[MikeDunn]

I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear.

Me the same
kevin

Hi guys,

I can't be of too much help re Arduino as I'm not very familiar with that technology (yet - that may change.  I'm currently exploring PICs instead of the Arduino), I expect someone with more knowledge will come along & do a far better job than I could !

Re the RasPi - basically, it's a credit-card computer.  Remember the ZX Spectrum & BBC Micro ?  The RasPi Foundation are trying to do something similar with schools, but it's also very useful to the hobbyist.  Lots of information here http://www.raspberrypi.org/

What you have is a small Linux-based computer, roughly the size of a pack of playing cards.  Memory is provided by an SD card, where Linux and any apps reside.  You have a couple of USB connections, an RJ45 port and an HDMI port; it's powered by a wall-wart (although I have heard of battery-powered ones). 

As far as JMRI is concerned, you can get a suitable OS and JMRI image that you place on the SD card; make some minor alterations (documented, ones to suit your environment) and plug in a wireless adapter.  Power it on and wait a few minutes, then you can connect via a browser on your PC, tablet or smartphone.  You connect the RasPi to a suitable controller (an ideal one is the Sprog), and you're off controlling your DCC system.  No need for keyboard, mouse, or monitor when in headless mode.

RasPi kits from Maplins start at around £70, and there is a better one for around £100, or you can just pick up the parts you want as & when; the basic unit is around £30 (RS, Farnell, Amazon, etc).  You can use it as a full computer (word processing, spreadsheets, browsing, games, etc) or as a starting point for an electronics development environment.  Very versatile.

Hope that helps,

Mike

[QLD KID]

 :hellosign:A interesting batch of replies to a difficult topic. DCC seemed to  be considered "The Holly Grail " when it first surfaced but I stayed with DC on my 5m X 4m
Layout for two reasons. One DC does what I want, we run 25 Car Frieghts and 12/14 Car Passenger Trains without too much mayhem. I have a simple Track Plan,the Double Track Mainline with long Passing Sidings and a one level Loop up to the second level into a 5 Track Hidden Staging Yard gives us plenty to do. The Second reason is cost after quite a few years in the Hobby I have a heap of Locos both Steam & Diesel so to put Decoders in them plus buy a system would impact on my costs a lot and divert funds that goes towards the ultimate idea of finishing the Layout. We now have a Keddie Wye Bridge at one end of the Layout which was a big step in getting towards the end of building process.
If anyone would like photos of my Layout give me a yodel  either here or marg_den@bigpond.net.au. I'm not too confidant on doing a video but do have a Mate here that may help out. Regards, Denis.

[daveg]

Photos are *always* very welcome, so yes please Denis!

Dave G

[Newportnobby]

E'gad, by heck etc
I can see why I remain DC now

[RussellH]

DCC may have its advantages (continuous track power, sound etc) but with all the extra hardware and software your quoting how complicated can you actually make it? Is it getting to the point where you spend more time programming? or updating your drivers? If thats what you want to do thats good but dont confuse programming & development with running trains.

Back to the original topic??

All it takes to run trains is the simplicity of a DC supply and a means of regulation - with a significant stable of locos of all makes and ages I get 100% compatibility with pure DC and no conversion cost. I'm staying DC thanks but will enjoy the DCC decoder socket as its an excellent way of plugging into a loco when servicing. KISS - Keep it simple stupid.

Respect to all - whatever they use to control their locos.

Regards
Russ

[ngauger]

Lol!, I'm wondering if the original electric (DC) loco's caused some rumblings amongst the clockwork fraternity?  "Electricity!! Over my dead body sir!"

   

[red_death]

I think the point is that extra hardware/software isn't necessary in most cases to get things running with DCC, but (just like DC) by adding in more hardware/software you can enable more functionality.

The idea that DCC *has* to be more complicated than DC is a bit of a myth, but IMO it is easier to do *some* more complex things with DCC than DC (and I'm sure some things are easier to do with DC than DCC). 

Horses for courses - look at what you are interested in and *your* requirements.

Cheers, Mike

[PostModN66]

As far as JMRI is concerned, you can get a suitable OS and JMRI image that you place on the SD card; make some minor alterations (documented, ones to suit your environment) and plug in a wireless adapter.  Power it on and wait a few minutes, then you can connect via a browser on your PC, tablet or smartphone.  You connect the RasPi to a suitable controller (an ideal one is the Sprog), and you're off controlling your DCC system.  No need for keyboard, mouse, or monitor when in headless mode.

Mike - it certainly helps!   

Just a couple of follow ups if you have the patience!

What's a "wireless adapter", and why do you plug it in?
What does "connect via a browser" mean? And what are you connecting?
I have Googled a "Sprog" and it looks like it is a DCC box without the hand held bits - is this right?

Cheers Jon