Gone back to dc

[hairygit]

Yes, I get a real buzz out of DC. Yes, I certainly do, but I like the old ways of doing things, and old things in general, my everyday car dates from 1958, no road tax, no seatbelts and no dashboard padding, my motorcycle is a 1975 Honda, with points and carbs, none of that fangled (and unreliable on a bike) electronic ignition or fuel injection, and while I do own a digital camera, I have 22 film cameras varying from 1897 to 1960, all working, and a freezer full of film, and do my own processing. So why would I want to complicate my model railway?

[MikeDunn]

But I object strongly to any suggestion that an Arduino is difficult.

I don't recall saying it was difficult ... or anyone else for that matter 

But you cannot get away from the fact that a RasPi is a complete computer, whereas the Arduino (and PIC) is a microcontroller - a component of a computer.  You cannot just plug in a keyboard, mouse or screen into one & have it work, or load a full program such as a web browser into these devices.  You, the developer, need to do a lot more to a microcontroller to get it to do anything, and most people lack the relevant electronic skills & knowledge; most readers of this forum can, conversely, get to grips with a RasPi in minutes based on previous PC/Mac usage ... 

Mike

[MattJ]

I don't know how some DC stalwarts seem to have somehow got it into their head that a DCC a loco won't budge a micron without hours of complicated programming...  it takes only a minute to give it a number, just a couple of seconds to select it to drive and you're ready to go!  Performance tuning is optional.

  - {Edit} Smiley face in case I seemed a bit more argumentative than I intended!  It is your choice after all, just a bit of an observation.

[Caz]

Can we calm it down a little guys and girls, we all have opinions so can't agree on everything but this is no place to keep beating each other over the head.

Let's get this thread back on topic and please cool down, we don't want to have to lock another topic.

[kevin141]

Can we calm it down a little guys and girls, we all have opinions so can't agree on everything but this is no place to keep beating each other over the head.

Let's get this thread back on topic and please cool down, we don't want to have to lock another topic.

Thanks whiteswan it would be a shame to lock it can i ask those that have used other systems that they have found to work to give us more detail at what they have done and in simple terms to help others to explore and improve there knowledge as i can reload a computer but not write programs and as i have said before the best controller is the one you are using now.
kevin141

[Raymond]

I am just starting to 'think' of setting up my DC stuff again. Also thought about DCC but doesn't a lot to be changed?

I read that the coaches needed to be fitted with LED's and some other electronic stuff to work out if the coach is being pushed or pulled?

Sorry if this is a bit of a dumb question. I was interested in having permanent lighting in my coaches as they're a bit dim as I don't tend to run my trains very fast.

[Robin2]

I don't recall saying it was difficult ... or anyone else for that matter 

But you cannot get away from the fact that a RasPi is a complete computer, whereas the Arduino (and PIC) is a microcontroller - a component of a computer.  You cannot just plug in a keyboard, mouse or screen into one & have it work, or load a full program such as a web browser into these devices.  You, the developer, need to do a lot more to a microcontroller to get it to do anything, and most people lack the relevant electronic skills & knowledge; most readers of this forum can, conversely, get to grips with a RasPi in minutes based on previous PC/Mac usage ... 

Mike

I'm sorry to have to come back to this again, especially when Mike and I agree about most of this stuff.

You are quite right to say that a Pi is a complete computer but it is not correct to say that an Arduino is part of a computer. It does need to be connected to another computer to be programmed, but once programmed it can operate on its own. And I don't accept that you need to do a lot more to it (remember it is small), you just need to do different stuff to it.

If a person doesn't want to do programming then, obviously, an Arduino is not the right product.

Both the Pi and the Arduino have their roles in railway modelling.

...R

[Newportnobby]

I'm sorry you had to come back to it too.
I know you guys know what you are talking about and also have your differences, but in my uninformed opinion your bickering is more likely to deter people considering DCC than encourage them, so I would please ask you to desist.
As Whiteswan has mentioned, this is an interesting topic and we would not like to see it locked so I suggest you just say that anyone with questions about the ins and outs of Arduino's etc can PM you for technical advice. Thank you.

[ngauger]

I am just starting to 'think' of setting up my DC stuff again. Also thought about DCC but doesn't a lot to be changed?

I read that the coaches needed to be fitted with LED's and some other electronic stuff to work out if the coach is being pushed or pulled?

Sorry if this is a bit of a dumb question. I was interested in having permanent lighting in my coaches as they're a bit dim as I don't tend to run my trains very fast.

Raymond, glad to hear you're considering DCC!  Although, It is always going to be more appealing to new starters, as each loco will need it's own decoder.  Most modern loco's are DCC ready, and just need the chip putting in.  If you have 20 or so old DC loco's, it may not be practical, both financially or technically!(although a few outfits claim a 90% conversion success rate)
Edit: BTW, most DCC loco's can be used on a DC layout, without modification, so might be worth making sure your future loco purchases are DCC, just in case you start another layout in the future.
As for other changes, I can't think why your existing wiring shouldn't work with DCC, technically it just requires connections to each section of track, if you have isolated the blocks.  In other words, the track is live all the time throughout your layout.
Lighting is another thing entirely, although Dapol of course advertise all their new coaching stock to be 'light bar' ready, so the option is there if you want it.

Hope i've explained it well enough, bear in mind I'm not an expert!

P.s. Forgot to mention, trains are generally, and in most basic form controlled by a hand held throttle, and these as you may have seen vary immensely, although their primary function is the same.  As has been mentioned in this thread, a user can easily hook it all up to the computer, and i do mean easily as plugging in a USB memory stick!
IMHO, this is where it starts to get interesting!!
Trust me.

[MikeDunn]

You are quite right to say that a Pi is a complete computer but it is not correct to say that an Arduino is part of a computer.

OK, looks like a poor choice of words on my part; I think that between our comments, readers will have a better idea of what these devices are 

Both the Pi and the Arduino have their roles in railway modelling.

Agreed 

NPN - I think the discussion between Robin & myself (here, anyway !) is over   It was, in the final stages, more semantics than anything else    I certainly didn't consider it as an argument 

[Raymond]

I am just starting to 'think' of setting up my DC stuff again. Also thought about DCC but doesn't a lot to be changed?

I read that the coaches needed to be fitted with LED's and some other electronic stuff to work out if the coach is being pushed or pulled?

Sorry if this is a bit of a dumb question. I was interested in having permanent lighting in my coaches as they're a bit dim as I don't tend to run my trains very fast.

Raymond, glad to hear you're considering DCC!  Although, It is always going to be more appealing to new starters, as each loco will need it's own decoder.  Most modern loco's are DCC ready, and just need the chip putting in.  If you have 20 or so old DC loco's, it may not be practical, both financially or technically!(although a few outfits claim a 90% conversion success rate)
Edit: BTW, most DCC loco's can be used on a DC layout, without modification, so might be worth making sure your future loco purchases are DCC, just in case you start another layout in the future.

Cheers Mr. ngauger,

I only have 5 loco's and probably 3 will be running on the non existing layout but I'm not sure if they can be converted.

I really need to set up a layout first and see what's needed for the changeover. It would be nice to have multiple loco's on one track.

With my last track (before DCC) I cheated and had constant power to the track for the coaches and the locos picked up current one one side of the track and from overhead catenary.

I don't think I'll bother with the catenary this time though.

[PostModN66]

This thread has been very helpful to me and got me thinking about maybe possibly a small DCC experiment    As well as maybe getting into Arduino and/or Paspberry Pi (probably not for DCC though) - so big thanks to contributors!

But........if I convert a few of my locos to DCC, will they then also run perfectly well on my existing DC layout without buzzing, deterioration in running characteristics or any other unwanted side effects?

Also, if I have a hybrid DC/DCC layout with a changeover spur, switchable between DC and DCC, what would happens when I switch the track over to DCC?  Would the locos respond immediately, or would there be a "boot up" delay or any other issues?

I'm hoping for a positive response to each of these, as it would be an easy way of playing with DCC.

Thanks in advance,

Jon 

[ngauger]

But........if I convert a few of my locos to DCC, will they then also run perfectly well on my existing DC layout without buzzing, deterioration in running characteristics or any other unwanted side effects?

Reply: That's the theory! It'd be a brave man who said yes to all the above!  As I say I am not a DCC expert, just a DCC user with 'user knowledge'.  All I know is it is generally accepted that a new loco (DCC ready) will work on a DC layout, if the Decoder (of which there are many different 'makes') is set to DC compatibility mode.  I only use one type of chip so far, the Bachmann 36-558A, which works fine for my needs, and is by default set to DC mode.
However, I have not tested this in practise!  Secondly, it would be impossible to say categorically that all your loco's would work after being converted, or be fine with DC.  There shouldn't be a problem, but as I say, a braver man than me would make such a promise! 
Edit: PLease also be aware that high frequency track cleaners on DC layouts can damage the DCC chips!!

Also, if I have a hybrid DC/DCC layout with a changeover spur, switchable between DC and DCC, what would happens when I switch the track over to DCC?  Would the locos respond immediately, or would there be a "boot up" delay or any other issues?

Reply: Unknown territory!  In theory, it should work, of course DC & DCC do not mix any shape or form in terms of track polarity/voltage/waveform, so you would need to be very careful, less you fry both systems!  I would give that a miss myself, dabble with DCC by all means, but isolate the two, or build a separate layout perhaps, or start by converting one loco, see how that worked, both DCC & DC mode, then proceed accordingly, ie do them all and convert your layout to DCC (or not as the case may be)!
There will be others on this forum who can answer your q's more definitively, but as I say, I started my layout early with DCC, so can't give evidence based replies.  Cheers, Andy.

P.S It would be good if somebody started a DC to DCC conversion thread, warts and all so to speak!  I would be fascinated to hear how it went.  It is of course a question of how an old loco may take to the conversion process, it may depend on the skill of the technician/hobbyist doing the work, or even the age or design of the motor itself?

Andy

[red_death]

But........if I convert a few of my locos to DCC, will they then also run perfectly well on my existing DC layout without buzzing, deterioration in running characteristics or any other unwanted side effects?

Also, if I have a hybrid DC/DCC layout with a changeover spur, switchable between DC and DCC, what would happens when I switch the track over to DCC?  Would the locos respond immediately, or would there be a "boot up" delay or any other issues?

Hi Jon

Answer to the first qn - provided the chip allows DC operation then it will work (all the better chips do).

On the second qn: I assume you mean drive train into changeover location (fully isolated) turn off DC and turn on DCC?  You couldn't do it on the fly as you would risk short circuits as the train bridged the two sections, so in that sense there would be some delay while you stopped and switched.

Cheers, Mike

[PostModN66]

On the second qn: I assume you mean drive train into changeover location (fully isolated) turn off DC and turn on DCC?  You couldn't do it on the fly as you would risk short circuits as the train bridged the two sections, so in that sense there would be some delay while you stopped and switched.

Thanks both Mike and Andy,   

Yes, my idea is for a loco shed, so loco drives into loco spur under DC and stops.  Switch to DCC then "reverse" into the shed, so a short delay of a few seconds at least would be prototypical.

But thanks for the warning about track cleaners Andy - I use one on Lofthole and though in theory it would be OK (DCC locos wouldn't stray onto track cleaner territory) it would be a risk if operators got confused!

Cheers  Jon