Gone back to dc

[ngauger]

On the second qn: I assume you mean drive train into changeover location (fully isolated) turn off DC and turn on DCC?  You couldn't do it on the fly as you would risk short circuits as the train bridged the two sections, so in that sense there would be some delay while you stopped and switched.

Thanks both Mike and Andy,   

Yes, my idea is for a loco shed, so loco drives into loco spur under DC and stops.  Switch to DCC then "reverse" into the shed, so a short delay of a few seconds at least would be prototypical.

But thanks for the warning about track cleaners Andy - I use one on Lofthole and though in theory it would be OK (DCC locos wouldn't stray onto track cleaner territory) it would be a risk if operators got confused!

Cheers  Jon   

Cool Jon!  I had a look at your layout, superb.  You sound & look like a guy who knows what he's doing, so I'm sure you could dabble with DCC with impunity!  BTW, don't know if you knew, but with DCC you can 'play' with the 'momentum' of a loco or 'unit' to influence it's starting/breaking times.  This creates more realistic running, as that step between 0-1 is less visible. However, I think that also the new motors & electronics of todays n gauge loco's/dmu's plays a part as well. 

[PostModN66]

Cool Jon!  I had a look at your layout, superb.  You sound & look like a guy who knows what he's doing, so I'm sure you could dabble with DCC with impunity! 

You are very kind Andy!   

Not sure about "impunity" though!  Cautious small steps.................

I actually have a DC controller (Pictroller) with momentum......haven't quite got used to it yet!

Cheers  Jon 

[ngauger]

Cool Jon!  I had a look at your layout, superb.  You sound & look like a guy who knows what he's doing, so I'm sure you could dabble with DCC with impunity! 

You are very kind Andy!   

Not sure about "impunity" though!  Cautious small steps.................

I actually have a DC controller (Pictroller) with momentum......haven't quite got used to it yet!

Cheers  Jon 

That's interesting Jon, I wonder if it works on the old 'half wave' principle that some DC controllers used to have, I seem to remember having a old H&M 'Clipper' that had half wave, I think to facilitate/aid slow running?

Andy

[PostModN66]

Hi Andy,

I don't know but I suspect rather more sophisticated than that.  There is an adjustment for momentum, you can set it so that  it takes a long, long time to get going..........and to stop, though there is an emergency brake.

Cheers  Jon 

PS: I've still got my Clipper - and the Multipac that plugs into it!

[Newportnobby]

My Gaugemaster twin has the brake simulation feature but I don't use it for braking due to the total 'pot luck' effect as to where it stops. It's a good feature for starting off from the station though

[ngauger]

Interesting!  I suppose at the end of the day, the DCC 'bit' (no pun intended) is incidental to the way the motor is powered/controlled?  In the end, DC or DCC, it's still a 12/16v electric motor at the end of it all.  I guess more sophisticated ways of control have existed for many years (as opposed to a simple rheostat that attenuates the voltage) so it's not unique to DCC.  When they put DCC together as an embryonic 'system', they must have looked at the best ways to feed current/voltage to a DC motor, and built it into the chips.
I'll wander into Wikipedia and find out for myself!!

Take care

Andy

[trainsdownunder]

DC and DCC  on the same layout ? .........  No problem

I own a  ZTC 511 a simple press of 3 buttons on the controller and my layout changes from DCC to DC.

I know that it is a controller that is poo-poo'd by a lot a people as being over expensive etc, but I've never regretted buying mine.

What most don't understand is that although it only can operate one "speed setting" under DC (same as the rest) it also has a roster system for profiling up to 50 DC locos. The controller has brake lever that can be used under DC or DCC as well as the oblitary emergency STOP ALL button.

The profiles allow you to set inertia start voltage etc see here for more detail. Page 49 onwards.... http://www.ztccontrols.co.uk/index_htm_files/1272882803-ZTC%20511%20Manual.pdf.

One of the reasons I bought this unit. I also run a full DCC MERG system on the layout

Happy to answer any queries by PM or email about it.

[ParkeNd]

You can always take the Blackadder approach and "pooh pooh their pooh poohs"

[Bob Wild]

Spent a couple of hours this afternoon with two of my grandchildren on the DCC layout. One was the engine driver and the other was signalman. They found the Dynamis quite easy to use and achieved things I don't think they could have done on a DC layout. They even managed to get two trains on the same loop - quite a challenge but no problem. For me that's one of the main reasons for my building my layout. Not only the satisfaction of model making but to spread a little happiness.

[Les1952]

As someone who went from DCC to analogue about six or seven years ago, and has since converted one (of two) layouts to DCC I'll wade in with a few comments about conversion, partly technical and partly cost.

Getting locos chipped isn't cheap-   I now tend to use either Lenz or Zimo chips, which for a six-pin chip are about £30 a time.

As to what I have with chips in- the ones with 6-pin sockets aren't usually a problem.

Hard wired- I have a pair of Farish J94 chassis (one kitbuilt body) , which have no issues- the cab openings are covered inside with black paper but there is room inside for the chip.  My other hard-wired Farish are tender locos (including kits) - no issues, though I have a K3 with a solder-assembled tender that might prove a major problem.

Union Mills "can't be done" say a number of folk.  I have four, all with small Midland tenders converted to NER outline.  The tender needs a bit of milling out inside to take the chip, but one has a tiny CT chip inside, the other three Lenz Silver Minis.  The three Lenz chipped locos run fine but I still have issues getting the best out of CT chips.

Overall, the cost of the two Powercabs and other bits I needed were covered by the two transformers, three hand-helds, three panel boxes, vast numbers of switches, four reels of wire and the extra connectors etc that I didn't buy.  The cost of chipping locos has been met by selling much of my surplus stock of another time period.  I also gained about six to eight weeks on the extra wiring and testing I didn't need to do.

Would I change again?  Probably not if I hadn't the stock to sell to fund it.   Would I change back?  No.   Will I DCC my German layout?  No as it is "complete" and fully stocked.   If starting another layout of (say) US outline or a period I have no locos for at all would it be DCC?  Yes.

Hope this helps.
Les

[ngauger]

As someone who went from DCC to analogue about six or seven years ago, and has since converted one (of two) layouts to DCC I'll wade in with a few comments about conversion, partly technical and partly cost.

Getting locos chipped isn't cheap-   I now tend to use either Lenz or Zimo chips, which for a six-pin chip are about £30 a time.

As to what I have with chips in- the ones with 6-pin sockets aren't usually a problem.

Hard wired- I have a pair of Farish J94 chassis (one kitbuilt body) , which have no issues- the cab openings are covered inside with black paper but there is room inside for the chip.  My other hard-wired Farish are tender locos (including kits) - no issues, though I have a K3 with a solder-assembled tender that might prove a major problem.

Union Mills "can't be done" say a number of folk.  I have four, all with small Midland tenders converted to NER outline.  The tender needs a bit of milling out inside to take the chip, but one has a tiny CT chip inside, the other three Lenz Silver Minis.  The three Lenz chipped locos run fine but I still have issues getting the best out of CT chips.

Overall, the cost of the two Powercabs and other bits I needed were covered by the two transformers, three hand-helds, three panel boxes, vast numbers of switches, four reels of wire and the extra connectors etc that I didn't buy.  The cost of chipping locos has been met by selling much of my surplus stock of another time period.  I also gained about six to eight weeks on the extra wiring and testing I didn't need to do.

Would I change again?  Probably not if I hadn't the stock to sell to fund it.   Would I change back?  No.   Will I DCC my German layout?  No as it is "complete" and fully stocked.   If starting another layout of (say) US outline or a period I have no locos for at all would it be DCC?  Yes.

Hope this helps.
Les

Thanks Les, nothing beats 'real world' experience.  As I mentioned earlier, I have so far only used one kind of chip, the 'cheap' Bachmann one, purely because it fits into the decoder sockets on all my stock, and does a good basic job for £15.  Given your average loco price these days of around £85-£100, I guess that's fair enough?
Les, I'm interested to hear what those £30 chips can offer us in terms of functionality, say over the £15 Bachmann, or is it purely a matter of personal choice (or is it a size consideration)?  I know that with 00 gauge there seems to be greater functionality within rolling stock (lights/sound/smoke etc) but my n gauge loco's so far have just had directional lighting.  I think this is fine for my needs, as I can't see myself wanting the other functions particularly (although smoke does conjure some amusing images of my smoke alarm system going into melt-down!).

Thank you

Andy

[red_death]

I have so far only used one kind of chip, the 'cheap' Bachmann one, purely because it fits into the decoder sockets on all my stock, and does a good basic job for £15.  Given your average loco price these days of around £85-£100, I guess that's fair enough?
Les, I'm interested to hear what those £30 chips can offer us in terms of functionality, say over the £15 Bachmann, or is it purely a matter of personal choice (or is it a size consideration)? 

Hi Andy

My experience is that uou really do get what you pay for - the Zimos and CT decoders (both £25-35 depending on the model) offer better control adn running straight out of the box.  There is also a question of size in that CT in particular do some really tiny decoders which obviously makes fitting easier if space is pushed.

That isn't to say that some of the cheaper £15-20 decoders won't do a good job.

Cheers, Mike

[4x2]

A lot of talk here of DCC... 

I moved back to DC last year and I don't regret it one bit. Anyway you cut it DCC will cost more, if you have plenty of money then that's fine, but if like me you're counting the pennies then it's DC all the way.

Don't get me wrong, I like DCC - Endless features and of course sound, but I just can't afford it !

DC in my view is simpler, cheaper and easier to understand - especially for the novice.

What doesn't help here is that some forum members can't seem to accept that some people just don't like DCC and so they 'sell' the DCC concept quite hard. I am worried that some novice members may have spent loads on new DCC equipment as advised - just run a train round an oval, when a £30 DC controller would have done the same job......

[kevin141]

A lot of talk here of DCC... 

I moved back to DC last year and I don't regret it one bit. Anyway you cut it DCC will cost more, if you have plenty of money then that's fine, but if like me you're counting the pennies then it's DC all the way.

Don't get me wrong, I like DCC - Endless features and of course sound, but I just can't afford it !

DC in my view is simpler, cheaper and easier to understand - especially for the novice.

What doesn't help here is that some forum members can't seem to accept that some people just don't like DCC and so they 'sell' the DCC concept quite hard. I am worried that some novice members may have spent loads on new DCC equipment as advised - just run a train round an oval, when a £30 DC controller would have done the same job......

Man after my own heart i am not knocking DCC but from my point of view DC does what i want it to do will use the idea of a bus wire so more feeds to the track and easier to put in section switches but having said in other posts i had given DCC a good 4 years but all the faffing about with converting locos and having to do a program list to know which loco i was going to run not fun for me at all so being able to take the loco out of the box and running it is my idea of heaven so all i want to do at times is play trains when not doing other bits to my layout   
kevin 141

[Les1952]

Getting locos chipped isn't cheap-   I now tend to use either Lenz or Zimo chips, which for a six-pin chip are about £30 a time.


Hope this helps.
Les

Les, I'm interested to hear what those £30 chips can offer us in terms of functionality, say over the £15 Bachmann, or is it purely a matter of personal choice (or is it a size consideration)?  Thank you

Andy

I do have quite a few of the Bachmann £15 chips and when they run there's no problem, but they are more susceptible to failure if there is a problem on the circuit board.  I've lost one due to stray solder on the circuit board of a Farish class 37.  Given that Farish solder appears slightly better on average than Dapol solder I took the view that the more expensive chips were better protected against short-circuits.

On size, the slightly smaller Lenz and Zimo chips are a more comfortable fit inside Dapol tenders.

All the very best
Les