Would love to read the pre-agreed and approved method statement and risk assessment.

As a driver (who has signed locomotives) I'd simply refuse to operate that locomotive - and most of the lads I work with would be the same. And I know I'd have the backing of my immediate bosses, their boss, my colleagues and the union. I have refused to drive things before for safety related reasons in the past, and been supported by my gaffers over it.

That said perhaps things are tougher on the freight side - given how unstable the work is for staff (in all grades management included) to just say "no way - we're not doing this".

If it cannot be removed safely using proper recovery equipment, it should be cut up on site. We've already had a driver seriously injured and passengers with minor injuries from the collision itself. We don't need any more after it!

Quote from: class37025 on November 09, 2021, 12:30:54 PM

when I did my winching training it was always impressed on us that the cable / strop whatever could fail, or attachment points, and the absolute necessity to maintain a clear area where the cable could reach if it failed at the furthest end from the winch, or at the winch.

it made me cringe to see the guy at the rear of the loco watching the attempt, I'd imagine that if something had gone, he'd have ended up cut in half.

Similar training - different colour uniform, but same thoughts, particularly about the Clown person at the tow end of the loco!! 

What a mess. I agree with emjaybee and n bodger 's comments.

What if it's snagged on the tunnel brickwork - bring the whole tunnel down if they're not careful - or perhaps they did actually check first 

Just an off the cuff thought, maybe they want to damage or demolish the tunnel good reason/way to close the line down.
Personally thought the idea of towing the train out was stupid, can't believe so called experts would even consider the idea. Something a child would suggest or maybe it is being run by children!!!!!

Regards Stu

Not sure why they ever thought it would work pulling it out like that. Couldn't they just get a big hand in and pick it up like I do in my loft?

I've just been re-watching the video again, on my laptop rather than earlier on my phone.

I still think it's an appallingly badly planned idea, but...

...if you look carefully, it is actually shifting the unit out of the tunnel!

It's difficult to tell, but it looks like it's shifting by about 6" at a time. Shagging the loco wheels mind, so whether it's a cost effective solution remains to be seen.

This video shows the same event from a different angle.   You can see that the coach does move quite a bit.

But I am shocked those guys were allowed to stand anywhere nearby.

If that had snapped the whiplash could very easily have killed them all, hell it would have been powerful enough to do some serious damage to the locomotive, let alone the people.

Whoever was in charge of safety for that operation on that day should be keel-hauled.

Ross.

perhaps they thought they were bullet proof as they were wearing ...

hi - viz
helmets
safety boots



not sure how Network Rail works, but shouldn't there be a black helmet somewhere around ?

at least no blue helmets, apart from the BTP appear to be there.

Perhaps if they had put a winch on two statioary 66s they could have winched it out instead of trying to pull it out ,metal wheels on metal rails surely means it would slip pulling a dead weight that wouldnt roll like a heavy train load .
But Im'e no expert .
Bob Tidbury

I'm wondering if RevolutioN will be doing a 'Special Edition'?

Hi all,

So where to start on this as an engineer on the railways and having attended incidents previously, granted not to this degree!

Lets start with working practises, simply put on the multiple videos I have seen there was plenty going wrong and I have no doubts that multiple personalities will have had a rocket up the arse, potentially suspension of safety cards and retraining required.
I shall not go into detail as that will be a discussion between said personalities and their bosses who shall be dealing with their indiscretion.

Also the recovery teams DO NOT come from network rail but actually come from operators normally freight operators, and the teams in question could have come from multiple operators.

Now for the activity itself, well first of all you have to look at the scenario:

"2 items of rolling stock both of which have derailed in a tunnel wedged against each other and the tunnel walls and there is no risk to life as the rescue operation has long concluded. With no way to safely access or ascertain the structural condition of the rolling stock or more importantly the tunnel itself and in the knowledge that both items of rolling stock carry COSHH (fuel and lubricants) which due to the location cannot be removed therefor presenting a fire risk and if a fuel tank has ruptured presents a toxic and potentially explosive atmosphere especially considering there are electric on board the train that again due to location that cannot be isolated"

What options are there to safely remove the items of rolling stock?

Well option one is out the window, the rolling stock is in a tunnel so you cannot lift it out!

Cut up one or both items of rolling stock?
You cannot do that there are flammables on board which if ignited in that environment would result in an explosion, that potential source of ignition may not only come from cutting tools but also the electrics on board there may just be 2 wires waiting to short and spark!
Additionally to that as previously stated you don't know the structural integrity of the rolling stock or tunnel so do you really want to be potentially weakening it further with staff inside?

Jack the rolling stock apart and off the tunnel walls to then drag out?
The first issue is where do you fit the jacks and how? You cannot have staff crawling under the rolling stock to fit the jacks when they could move at any time, then comes with using the tunnel wall to push the rolling stock upright.
Tunnels are built for external pressure to push inward, not for pressure to push outwards from the inside even under normal circumstances it's not something you do, so do you really want to be pushing outwards against the walls then it could already be weakened?

Having done plenty of formal and dynamic risk assessments the number of Very High Risk factors and activities there is no safe option for people to work inside to remove the rolling stock.
So that leaves you with only one option to remove the rolling stock externally, hence dragging them out by force.

So how do you drag it out?

Quote from: Bob Tidbury on November 10, 2021, 08:09:55 PM
Perhaps if they put a winch on two statioary 66s they could have winched it out instead of trying to pull it out ,metal wheels on metal rails surely means it would slip pulling a dead weight that wouldnt roll like a heavy train load .

This idea of course has some good logic, but 2 issues with using 2 66s and a winch system!

First one the winch itself it would be a metal rope and shackles, while of course traditional they are less favoured these days for dragging things due to the fact when they do they really do go and having seen a 50t shackle fail and go flying they really can go far! Especially as the tension would have to be huge to pull it out under a sustained force, but more about that later.
But also in this case due to the limited space you would have people in the danger area if a wire or shackle fails which of course we want to avoid.

The issue of the using 66s as anchors, with the amount of force been needed even with parking brakes applied the locos would be dragged rather than drag the rolling stock out, especially at that location which is know to have adhesion issues at the best of times.
To give you an idea of how easy it is to move a loco, in the old job I have pushed by hand a class 90 on my own! Granted the brakes were no applied but if I can push a 85t loco by hand, the force needed to winch the rolling stock out of the tunnel would easily slid a pair of locos backwards.
The better option would be to use some form of anchor in the ground, but again the location doesn't lend itself to that sadly.

This leads to the solution they have come up with, its not pretty but it has been used before and works!

So the tools used are the right tools for the job! A locos with a lot of low end torque so the class 59 is ideal as it is has the highest rated low end torque at rail of any diesel loco on the UK network!

Now the ropes used that are pretty much industry standard and are anti whip ropes which should they fail are designed in such a way that the tension causes the fibres to tighten in the rope and should the rope fail the fibres loosen to get rid of the energy and drop to the ground rather than snap and whip like old pretensioned wire ropes.
Additionally fibre ropes have loops on both ends so that there is no need to use shackles so again it reduced the risk.
Also the ropes used in this job will have been a minimum of twice the weight of the rolling stock (37.8t) so a minimum of 80t safe working limit, but at a rough guess I would say the ropes in question have a 100t safe working limit.
However that doesn't mean you stand near by, best practice been that you should stand no closer than the length of the rope in question, the further you can the better!

As for the bouncing method to get the stock out, it has been done before and no doubt be done again as/if/when the need arises and is an agreed practice with recovery teams. If you use a sustained force the amount of sustained force needed is much greater than if you bounce the train out using impact forces, the best way to think of it is using a hammer to put a nail in wood.
If you try and push the nail into wood it takes a large amount of force but by hammering the nail in the impact force does the work far more efficiently!

But as some may have noted the 59 was sliding backward with the wheels not rotating, the driver would have had at least initial brake pressure applied to prevent running away should the ropes have snapped or rolling back freely while bouncing the rolling stock out!

Doing this procedure there is little doubt that there would be damage to the track, but that is not of concern as the whole junction would be getting lifted and fresh track put in regardless.
Additionally its likely that the loco will have got wheels flats (sparks coming off the wheels pretty much makes it a guarantee), but this would have been factored in and no doubt Network rail will have given concession for the loco once released from site to run light loco to depot for a full inspection and foot the bill for tyre turning (plenty of metal left on those wheels) and if needed a replacement coupling (at a rough guess around £40k all in).

As for damage to the tunnel as I previously said pushing against the tunnel wall which may have been damaged is dangerous, the risk of further damaging the tunnel with a lateral force travelling across the tunnel lining is greatly reduced and therefor reducing the risk of incurring more damage.

So all in its not pretty and appears very rough in this day and age but given the scenario at hand the method was the least dangerous of options, its just let down by people ignoring safe practises!

@acko22 nice explanation.

Thank you.

Which has helped the non railwaymen eg those with interest in issues and those who are not engineers understand the procedures involved.