Quote from: joe cassidy on April 27, 2016, 09:04:20 PM
One aspect of this debate that interests me is the relationship between the price of model railways and the price of beer.

Until recently the price of a pint was similar to the price of one N gauge wagon. However it seems that today the exchange rate is more like 2 pints = 1 wagon.

So, perhaps the phrase "railway modelling keeps me out of the pub" will appear less frequently in articles in the model railway press ?

Best regards,


Joe

An interesting point, Joe, especially when you consider the exchange rate for a new Farish CCT is 6 pints

Quote from: newportnobby on April 27, 2016, 10:15:15 PM

Quote from: joe cassidy on April 27, 2016, 09:04:20 PM
One aspect of this debate that interests me is the relationship between the price of model railways and the price of beer.

Until recently the price of a pint was similar to the price of one N gauge wagon. However it seems that today the exchange rate is more like 2 pints = 1 wagon.

So, perhaps the phrase "railway modelling keeps me out of the pub" will appear less frequently in articles in the model railway press ?

Best regards,


Joe

An interesting point, Joe, especially when you consider the exchange rate for a new Farish CCT is 6 pints

Now you really are making me wonder if I've got my priorities right?? Beer or N gauge?? What to do?
Must do both some how!!
Looks like ebay for N gauge from now on!!

Beer or Trains now there is a terrible decision.

I know the prices of new models seems quite high, but I think when you look at the improvements in detail and general quality of the rolling stock alone the prices are quite fair, even better when you find some discounted.

Quote from: paulprice on April 27, 2016, 10:23:52 PM
Beer or Trains now there is a terrible decision.

I know the prices of new models seems quite high, but I think when you look at the improvements in detail and general quality of the rolling stock alone the prices are quite fair, even better when you find some discounted.

Maybe we should change this thread to....
'The price of beer, is it sustainable?'

Well, the price of beer is now four times what it was when I started buying it, whereas N gauge is just 25% or so more expensive than when I started, so N gauge is an absolute bargain!

Also, I've bought three toasters in my lifetime, and one of those was a dud, which is a failure rate of 33%.

Which just goes to show that you can prove anything with statistics and facts.

Just a comparison

Rebuilding the heating system in the house and arranged to pick up three radiators from two different suppliers

First supplier late because they rejected the delivery themselves due to damage to both radiators and when I picked up the replacements these were both also damaged so I rejected

Second supplier for the vertical radiator turned out that the silver radiator I ordered had white brackets in the box in error

100% failure

I am a wine rather than beer drinker but will refrain from further input to price comparisons.  As I suggested earlier, whatever the relative price ioncreases our models are vastly superior in standard of presentation than i the 70s/80s when I was first in N Gauge.  Whether in the case of stream they are almost too fragile to hasndle and use is another question.

There is clearely a question mark over quality.  And here we are in a similar situation to the London Commuter I was for many years.  An effective monopoly of  supplier(s), who for various reasons keeps putting up prices, in that instance with promises of improvements which 5 yrs after I hung up my suits still have not materialsied.  It is totally reasonable for the customer, without whom the business has no sales and no profits, should expect a benefit for parting with more money, and draw attention to failings.  And it seems that quality is suspect.  The fact we keep on buying reflects only the reality of no alternative suppliers, unless we take the drastic options of changing scale or hobby.

Now having commented on the general modelling standard having greatly  improved since the 80s, what about quality, by which I mean running from the box and/or not failing shortly after.  I guess there will only be impressions from those of us who were seriously active then.  But my own experience is that I never had a loco not run from the box.  And some are still in use today.  That is not to say I did not sometimes make adjustments which improved running.  And they are noisier and do not have the fine control of more modern offerings.  But having read stories on this Forum about recent reasons for return of locos,  by the lower standards of the day, I have the impression that locos were more dependable in the past .

Now I am please not to have had to return any loco myself in the current era.  That said from Farish I have 2*B1s, a 5MT, A1 and A2.  Outside any warranty the A1 valve gear has collapsed both sides and one side of a B1.  3 sets of single slidebar out of 10 is a 30% failure rate and not very much usage esp on the A1.  On the B1 I still had the plastic piece which holds the rocking link and so could reassemble it all and apply superglue gel around the fixed mounting pin - and have applied glue on all remaining sets of valvegear.  A disappointing design flaw in an expensive item.

Steering the topic a little to quality vs price.

My experience of modern Chinese built but generally British (CAD work) designed models is the designs are generally good.

My gripe is almost always the quality of the assembly.  For this reason almost without exception I rebuild every model I get, and you know what, assembled correctly they work 100%. 

There have been a few exceptions where bad assembly has damaged a part but when replaced the model works.

For me putting in this effort works and at the current price I am prepared to do the work.

The question is how much more per model am I prepared to pay so that I know when I take it out of the box it will work, or what is the maximum price I must pay to get this.

There is an easy answer to this.  We should have to pay no more than the current price times (100% + failure rate % + QA inspection cost of 5%).

Let me explain.

If you QA every model to be a perfect model, your manpower and test cost to do the quality inspection is 5% of the value of the product.  If a percentage of your production is faulty and you scrap it, you then add the scrap cost on average to the cost of the end products that are perfect.

So for a poor production line with 20% of its products having a defect you charge 125% (100+20+5) of the current price and every model shipped is then perfect and the manufacturer does not make a loss.  He can then rework the defect stock, as it is now already paid for, and can spend up to 125% of its original value in manpower to rework the product.

This is not an uncommon practice in re-badge consumer electronics from the Far East.

NB there are several assumptions here and there will be differences but not vast and the answer its within 5-10% of reality.

So tops would we pay 35% more for a perfect Dapol or Farish (and the rest)?

The problem with QC is how far do you take it, what is your acceptable reject rate when it is first in the hands of the customer.  More time testing and inspecting equals more production costs but with diminishing returns.  100% acceptance equals test each item to failure.

Extensive QC will stop most production problems which are evident out-of-the-box but can't address shipping and handling induced problems, nor will it stop design defects or material defects which will cause a model to fail after first use (probably just outside warranty).  A properly designed and implemented QA system should lessen these types of failures but is a future improvement and doesn't address the immediate QC issues.

Rework from QC can be a real nightmare.  Trouble-shooting, disassembly, replacement, reassembly, retesting and possibly repeating the process if it still has problems and generally requires a greater level of expertise, more expensive, than production assembly.  If this rectification costs more than the profit on the item plus production of a replacement, bin it or on-sell.

cfj

I think we all accept that there will be some failure rate, whatever we buy, and whatever the % rate may be.
Surely, the important thing then is how this is dealt with ?
I have been buying items from Liverpool over ten years, and in that time I think I've had about three items fail, one a non railway item.
That was a missmoulded item in a vehicle kit, and following a phone call a replacement part was sent out FOC.
A class 159 just stopped after about a month, a quick phone call and it was returned, with them paying the postage, and a replacement held from stock and then sent on receipt of the u/s item.
the third item was a preowned loco which I had asked to be test run before despatch. I had a call to say it was faulty, with suspected drive shaft problems and split gears. As I was willing to take it and strip it to a dummy for double heading I made an offer on it, and this was accepted.
I dare not say how many locos / units I have bought over the years, SWMBO might manage to read this and then I'd be dead  but my point is that each failure was dealt with quickly and satisfactorily.
We know things will fail, and it is annoying, but if the failure is dealt with fairly and well, then surely there is nothing more we can really expect ?
In contrast to the above, a few years ago SWMBO bought a new pair of boots, and the second time she wore them one of the heels snapped.
we took them back to the shop, where one of the assistants looked at them, turned them over to look at the soles, and said "oh, you've worn these. nothing I can do".
how the  did she think we found out they'd broken  after much argument, and the arrival of the manager, threats of visits by trading standards etc, we finally got a refund, with very bad grace. needless to say we never bought from that shop again, and in fact it went out of business a couple of years later.
so, yes not everything will be perfect, but a good supplier, be it box shifter or, if you can find one, local model shop, can still save the day.
just my view.

Most retailers are fairly good at replacing or refunding faulty items
as that is the law. Last major rail item I bought was a Farish
train set as I wanted the loco and for the extra money got trucks ,
track and controller. This was from Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh,
an excellent model shop, they gave the loco a test run and examined
the trucks to make sure all wheels, couplings ok, a fiddly job with
these wrap round containers. I paid about £10 more than mail order
excluding the postage, but was happy do do so.

I was given a GF 9400 class Pannier Tank originally purchased, I guess, around 1994? The price on the box is £29.95. At 2015 prices this equates to around £54. The new Bachman 64xx PT is priced, pre-order with Hattons, at around £81. This is not really comparing like-with-like in terms of finish, detailing, DCC-ready etc?

This is an existential post for UK N scale modellers in the UK and very interesting.

A couple of notions from me. Living in Australia, I have to order stuff on the web since there just aren't any shops around here that sell the N scale models I would like whether UK or American outline. When I buy a locomotive I expect it to work out of the box at least and if it doesn't I hold the seller responsible. A two-way back and forth trip by air mail to the UK for a loco costs 20 pounds which I expect to be paid for by the retailer. A locomotive failure is a giant nuisance for both me and the retailer and it has happened twice out of nine locos shipped from the UK (once out of the box and once after 15 minutes running). Before sending it to me I would prefer that the retailer makes sure it can run around a track. I have bought several locos from N Scale Supply in the US and they have a sticker on the box declaring that the loco has been test run. I appreciate that.

On the issue of the cost of UK railway gear, it strikes me that the locos are gradually increasing in price but not exorbitantly so. Wagons and coaches seem to be worse to me. I think that price points is part of the issue. Once a loco goes over 100 pounds or a wagon over 10 pounds, the price rise becomes more noticeable. The prices that Dapol and Farish charge do seem high compared to what I might get for the same money in North American gear. However, the 20% VAT is lead in the saddlebags for UK buyers and I accept that Farish and Dapol are selling into a smaller market than the US and Canada. In the US as well workers are not subject to the same taxation overheads to pay for pensions and health care etc. 

Webbo

Price of carriages seems to have increased quite a lot
recently, ordinary GF ones often £25, Pullmans £30.
At least with carriages and wagons there's no
electrical or mechanical things to go wrong
and the quality is now of a very high order.

Quote from: Webbo on April 28, 2016, 09:45:10 AM
A two-way back and forth trip by air mail to the UK for a loco costs 20 pounds which I expect to be paid for by the retailer.
Webbo

Do they come to the party on this?
In the past, I have had to pay postage for return to Farish (Poole) but they paid return.