price rises - how long can this be sustainable

[joe cassidy]

Hi Bob.

No, I would not expect retailers to have to check toasters or washing machines before they sell them.

I believe that there is a big difference between shops selling toasters or washing machines and shops selling model railways.

Shops selling toasters or washing machines do so just to make money.

Shops selling model railways do so because they love model railways.

Am I right Mr. Graham Walters ?

There would be no extra cost for testing locos as labour is a fixed cost for a shop, except for overtime.

Best regards,


Joe

[austinbob]

Shops selling toasters or washing machines do so just to make money.

Shops selling model railways do so because they love model railways.

Joe

Joe - are you telling me (tongue in cheek) that model railway shops are not in business to make money??

[Ben A]

You wouldn't expect retailers to have to check toasters or washing machines or anything else before they sell them would you??

Hi Bob,

But as has been said several times in this thread, toasters and washing machines have a failure rate too.

No one is saying you can't have your 100% guaranteed non-fail product.  What they are saying is that it will cost you; and we have a good example to hand in the N Gauge market of CJM who claims virtually 100% but whose locos will cost you around £600 each.

Whether in better researched design, higher specification components or more thoroughly tested products, reducing failures costs money.

And with the overwhelming message from modellers that they want to pay the lowest possible prices (and will ignore their local shop to order an item online to save £5 even when postage is £4.50!) then the manufacturers have to cut their cloth accordingly, and a higher number of failures is the price we all pay.

cheers

Ben A.

[JasonBz]

I am lucky in so far as Rails is my local model shop (well, to within a matter of yards it is) so things are tested before they are bought, at a good price for all concerned.
But judging by the amount they sell, they would need an extra member of staff just to give everything a whizz round before departure.

I have also heard from a (different) reputable source that "a certain manufacturer/s" more or less uses the Returns Process as their source of Quality Control....

[austinbob]

I am lucky in so far as Rails is my local model shop (well, to within a matter of yards it is) so things are tested before they are bought, at a good price for all concerned.
But judging by the amount they sell, they would need an extra member of staff just to give everything a whizz round before departure.

I have also heard from a (different) reputable source that "a certain manufacturer/s" more or less uses the Returns Process as their source of Quality Control....

Why am I not surprised!!!

[joe cassidy]

Joe - are you telling me (tongue in cheek) that model railway shops are not in business to make money??

I think that if model railway shop owners wanted to make money they would do a regular salaried job like the rest of us.

Best regards,


Joe

[austinbob]

Joe - are you telling me (tongue in cheek) that model railway shops are not in business to make money??

I think that if model railway shop owners wanted to make money they would do a regular salaried job like the rest of us.

Best regards,


Joe

Joe, I don't believe you just said that...
Model railway shops are in business to make money just like any other business.
You were joking _ yes?? 

[Roy L S]

Why don't the retailers do the testing ?

Maybe I'm wrong but maybe there are some quiet periods when not many customers are in the shop when locos could be given a test run.

The duff ones could then be sent back to the manufacturer.

The shops could charge a premium of say £5 per loco for tested locos compared with untested ones.

Best regards,


Joe

The answer to that is that good retailers (as opposed to box shifters) will test your loco for you and let you see them run, this is part of good customer service and should be a reasonable expectation for a purchaser. Ultimately it is the retailer not the manufacturer with whom you have the contract and it is their responsibility to ensure that the product is of merchantable quality. The "price" of that personal service may be that you receive less of a discount, but in some cases not even that is true.

If people mail order to get the cheapest possible price the option of it being tested and you seeing it run is not going to be available, the choice is down to the individual and so potentially is the outcome.

Regards

Roy

[zwilnik]

You wouldn't expect retailers to have to check toasters or washing machines or anything else before they sell them would you??

Whether in better researched design, higher specification components or more thoroughly tested products, reducing failures costs money.

And with the overwhelming message from modellers that they want to pay the lowest possible prices (and will ignore their local shop to order an item online to save £5 even when postage is £4.50!) then the manufacturers have to cut their cloth accordingly, and a higher number of failures is the price we all pay.

cheers

Ben A.

Thing is, repeating design mistakes every time you create a new loco is just wasting money, losing more valuable customers and makes your company look incompetent.

Part of good product design is iteration. Each time you do a new product you learn from previous mistakes and tune the next design to reduce the flaws. This still costs, but nowhere near as much as trying to design it all out in the first product and definitely less cost than annoying more and more (now ex) customers.

There's been a definite trend towards being careful with the wallets but part of that is wanting to reduce the risk of splashing out limited disposable income on something that *might* arrive in a year's time and *might* work. And we're not talking about Kickstarter products here either, these are items from apparently professional manufacturers who've got years of experience.

[joe cassidy]

Sorry Bob - I was being serious.

If I wanted to make money I would probably take out a franchise on a MacDonalds restaurant, or invest in something to do with the internet, rather than open a model shop.

To my mind owners of model railway shops are those who have taken their hobby to its ultimate conclusion by turning it into a way of earning a living rather than "making money".

Best regards,


Joe

[JasonBz]

Sorry Bob - I was being serious.

If I wanted to make money I would probably take out a franchise on a MacDonalds restaurant, or invest in something to do with the internet, rather than open a model shop.

To my mind owners of model railway shops are those who have taken their hobby to its ultimate conclusion by turning it into a way of earning a living rather than "making money".

Best regards,


Joe

I think it is possible to do better than make a living * out of a model shop, but you would have to go large and know ya stuff more than pretty well.

I like the idea of a MaccyD franchise, but it seems a lot of money for one venture ultimately controlled by others....Ill stick to doing some DIY on houses for now

[joe cassidy]

One aspect of this debate that interests me is the relationship between the price of model railways and the price of beer.

Until recently the price of a pint was similar to the price of one N gauge wagon. However it seems that today the exchange rate is more like 2 pints = 1 wagon.

So, perhaps the phrase "railway modelling keeps me out of the pub" will appear less frequently in articles in the model railway press ?

Best regards,


Joe

[Ben A]

Part of good product design is iteration. Each time you do a new product you learn from previous mistakes and tune the next design to reduce the flaws. This still costs, but nowhere near as much as trying to design it all out in the first product and definitely less cost than annoying more and more (now ex) customers.

Hi there,

This is an interesting point.  I have been told on several occasions that the Chinese factories like to keep each project separate so, for example, they will tool up the same bogie again for a new wagon even though elsewhere in the factory they already have mouldsfor it.

I am pretty sure that if you look closely you can see that the Y25 bogie under the Farish autoballasters is a different moulding to that under their JGA hoppers, even though the prototypes are the same.

I have never understood this as it seems to be spending money unnecessarily.

On top of that, while in theory it should give an opportunity for previous mistakes to be corrected, it does seem to have the opposite effect in practice; designers approach each new project individually without much consideration of what went before.

Cheers

Ben A.

[zwilnik]

Part of good product design is iteration. Each time you do a new product you learn from previous mistakes and tune the next design to reduce the flaws. This still costs, but nowhere near as much as trying to design it all out in the first product and definitely less cost than annoying more and more (now ex) customers.

Hi there,

This is an interesting point.  I have been told on several occasions that the Chinese factories like to keep each project separate so, for example, they will tool up the same bogie again for a new wagon even though elsewhere in the factory they already have mouldsfor it.

I am pretty sure that if you look closely you can see that the Y25 bogie under the Farish autoballasters is a different moulding to that under their JGA hoppers, even though the prototypes are the same.

I have never understood this as it seems to be spending money unnecessarily.

On top of that, while in theory it should give an opportunity for previous mistakes to be corrected, it does seem to have the opposite effect in practice; designers approach each new project individually without much consideration of what went before.

Cheers

Ben A.

I would put that down purely to bad management. Left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing etc. Sounds a lot like the SAAB story where they just couldn't use any standard parts from the parts bin, however good they were, they just had to do everything themselves (and went bust).

Or a better analogy, it's like everyone who's commented in this thread with their own viewpoints on the issues going off and designing one of the coaches for a train but with their own design ideas, without anyone co-ordinating. I'd hate to think what the effect would be for the whole train even if one or two of the coaches might look quite nice or run very well

[trkilliman]

This has been an interesting thread taking in the various opinions on what is mainly Farish prices, that have risen at, IMO, an alarming rate.

I think that modellers will fall largely into three groups;

a) Those who will be able and willing to pay increased prices, with or without a discounted price on rrp.

b) Those who will continue to buy items, but will/have become selective in what they buy as there is a limit to what they can or are prepared to spend on model trains.

c) Those who are either unable to pay the increased costs due to income restraints, or are not prepared to  pay the prices that now apply. Some that bought stock a few years back that is now possibly 50% or more in price may decide to make do with what they already have.

Overall I imagine people will be making more selective purchases, or perhaps two coaches instead of three. As I said some people will be able to continue with their spending on the hobby irrespective of the yearly increases. Ours is a fairly large hobby, and a fair proportion may start to think twice about a purchase that has risen in cost noticeably over a couple of years, when their disposable income has not, or possibly even diminished.