There are lots of different ways to do things. The way most of us work is to try something out one one point and see how you get on. You will learn so much more by giving it a go in a small way than you will from youtube. Youtubs is a good start point for info but you can't beat actual doing it yourself.

Yep, agree. I basically followed the short instructions that came with the points, and worked it out as l went along.

Quote from: Grassyfield on December 09, 2023, 07:13:41 AMIm getting conflicting infomation and its doing my head in

There's more than one way to do things. You can cut the rails and bond them to the stock rails, which will provide ultimate protection against shirts (from an errant wheel back or from a changeover switch being out of step with the movement of the blades), but 99% of people don't deem it necessary in N. I would go as far as to say that it's more likely you'll damage something whilst modifying the turnout than actual fixing anything.

In larger scales where flangeways are tighter it's more beneficial.

Modelling is not an armchair exercise. If you try and equip yourself with every piece of knowledge before you do anything you'll never accomplish anything. Try it. You've been given loads of advice here, you can heed it, or you can ignore it, but trying to find one 'right' way of doing things will not happen.

No modification is necessary at all, but best practice is to fit a changeover switch of some form co-acting with the movement of the point.

The supposed need to modify appears to have stemmed from trying to replicate what is considered easiest (though not universally considered best) if hand-building finescale track in the larger gauges.

There is no difference whether you use Analogue or DCC control systems. Unfortunately, a very small number of very vocal DCC fundamentalists persist on preaching that it is needed for DCC despite plenty of layouts proving the contrary.

So, just to 'do your head in a bit more' 

There are 2 issues here, unwanted shorts, and continuity between the switch rails and stock rails.

First let's talk about unwanted shorts.

The video and other examples online are talking about OO gauge points, not N Gauge ones.
There's a big difference between the two.

The OO gauge points have RELATIVELY far less clearance between the flangeway rails and loco wheels, as a result it's not unusual for a momentary short to occur when running across a point. On DC this won't be that noticeable but on DCC everything will stop when the system detects a short and sound equipped locos will go through their entire startup sound sequences again. Therefore it IS recommended to modify OO points.

N Gauge points have RELATIVELY much more clearance between the flangeway rails and loco wheels and therefore shorts don't occur when locos run across points (as long as you're not using 40 year old locos with pizza cutter wheels). So no modifications are necessary.

I have around 80 unmodified points on my layout and none of them cause shorting issues.

Now what about continuity between switch rails and stock rails?

Peco points work fine straight out of the box because the rails are clean so when you set the point one way or the other, contact is made between the switch and stock rails.
But as time passes this blade contact will become increasingly unreliable as the blades tarnish and  general muck and crud accumulate.
So you can either opt to keeps the point blades scrupulously clean or add a wire to the frog and use a switch connected to you point motors to switch the frog polarity with no need to rely on blade contact. Some point motors, Cobalt, Tortoise, & MTB have built in switches, Peco solenoid motors don't but they do sell switches that can be added to their solenoid motors.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

John P

So i read some where that wiring the frog does not power the frog but just switches polarity, but it actually does so they are wrong. So thats why im getting tripped up sort of. Any way i understand now my head is not so bad. Godbless you all, and please forgive me i am tiny brained but once i get pass understanding ( takes quite a while ) i will be less annoying...

Quote from: Grassyfield on December 09, 2023, 09:48:29 PMSo i read some where that wiring the frog does not power the frog but just switches polarity....

I shudder to think where you've read that about frog wiring, it's nonsense.

Seems to me you're probably reading too much from too many sources and confusing yourself   Seriously, ask the questions on here as this is where folk who actually model in N congregate and have first-hand experience of what works, what's necessary and what's a "nice to have" for our chosen scale    We'll still have differing opinions about some things as often there's more than one workable solution, but those solutions will be suitable  for N and not something formulated for -say- OO.

I agree those videos are silly.


Thank you so much mate have a awesome day appreciate it alot.

Quote from: Grassyfield on December 09, 2023, 09:48:29 PMSo i read some where that wiring the frog does not power the frog but just switches polarity, but it actually does so they are wrong.

One more thing to bear in mind on this. Should you get any Peco code 55 medium radius turnouts (new, not secondhand), then they will be the new Unifrog type which is gradually replacing all the electrofrog/insulfrog turnouts as and when the production tooling needs replacing. The medium radius are the only n-gauge ones that have been done so far.

On these, the frog is completely unpowered and will require switched power applying to get reliable running with short wheelbase locos.

At least they do have a dropper wire attached should this be required. Even if you choose not to power the frog I would not recommend cutting this dropper off but drill a hole in the baseboard to pass it through anyway and bundle it up tidily so it's not flapping around and possibly able to touch something else. That way it is available should you find that power is needed in the future.

Oh ok thanks for that, mine is peco code 55 large radius, here

Quote from: Grassyfield on December 10, 2023, 07:58:36 AMOh ok thanks for that, mine is peco code 55 large radius, here

No problem with that one. The bridging wire on the underside connects both switch rails to both the inside rails of the exit in order to transfer power from the switch blade to the rails - the polarity of the frog (and inner exit rails) being determined by to which outer rail the point is switched.

I normally solder a dropper wire to that bridging wire, as well as ones to both outer rails and run them down through holes in the baseboard in order to either incorporate frog switching immediately or to allow it to be retrofitted if required.

Just another question sorry. Could some one put a red dot or some thing on this to show exactly where i put the metal rod that comes out of the switch up through the top of rail? Because it looks differnent then what iv been looking at. Thank you..


EDIT - AND do you think its ok to just add the holes for switch and glue the turnout down and then later on poke the thing from bottom of baseboard through it or is that not cool.

Wait i think i know, i guess the holes on the side of the part u push to switch it?. Also just wondering how i would connect the wire to the frog on this one, should i pull it out of there and let it go out the side of the track and then at some point connect it, or is it bad to have the wires laying on the trackbed like that or what do i do..

I'm looking for information but cant find it, also the peco website doesn't show. It comes with some instructions but i dont understand them at all. Do i remove that square plate from the bottom and the spring?

Thank you...

Quote from: Grassyfield on December 11, 2023, 03:17:01 AMWait i think i know, i guess the holes on the side of the part u push to switch it?.

Correct - your confusion may be because at least some of the vids you've been watching have really been for OO gauge points and ISTR those have a hole in the middle of the tiebar.

QuoteAlso just wondering how i would connect the wire to the frog on this one, should i pull it out of there and let it go out the side of the track and then at some point connect it, or is it bad to have the wires laying on the trackbed like that or what do i do..

Don't pull anything out, solder a wire to the jumper wire on the underside.
You can leave the wire lying beside the point if you want although it could make it difficuly to get the point laid flat on the board. Personally, I'd drill a hole in the baseboard and pass the wire down through that.

QuoteI'm looking for information but cant find it, also the peco website doesn't show. It comes with some instructions but i dont understand them at all. Do i remove that square plate from the bottom and the spring?

Depends on what point motors you plan to use.
If they will be solenoids (Peco or SEEP) then don't remove the spring.
If they will be some form of servo drive, check the instruction for it. I think some do need the spring removing whilst others don't.

Quote from: Grassyfield on December 11, 2023, 01:54:23 AMEDIT - AND do you think its ok to just add the holes for switch and glue the turnout down and then later on poke the thing from bottom of baseboard through it or is that not cool.

That's precisely what I do - I drill holes for any wires (eg for the frog) and a large one for the point motor actuating rod, using the point in its correct position to mark where the centre of the hole should be.

Set the point in one direction and mark the baseboard through the hole in the end of the tiebar, then flick the point to the other direction and mark again. When you lift the point, the correct centre for the hole is midway between those two marks.

I drill a large hole, 8-10mm, for this. It ensures that there is plenty of room for the rod to move without fouling the side of the hole and also makes it easier to see when feeding the motor actuating rod up through the  baseboard into the hole in the tiebar. The hole can be covered later with a piece of thin card to leave just a slot where the rod moves. Once ballasted it won't show.

One thing to consider when deciding to which end of the tiebar the motor will go - check where any baseboard braces are and also where other point motors will be to make sure that there is room for the motor to fit.