Quote from: stevewalker on October 20, 2020, 07:37:40 PM

Quote from: zwilnik on October 20, 2020, 05:34:16 PM

Quote from: njee20 on October 20, 2020, 05:16:49 PM
At risk of continuing that tangent there's also the fascinating hypothetical morality questions around the car deciding whether to kill its occupants or a pedestrian, and at what point that balance shifts! If a whole school ran in front of the car should it swerve and crash?!

That one's a bit of a 'poorly understood science by the media' one. In engineering terms, if the AI driving the car had to make that decision it means it's already driving too fast for the conditions and has failed. It's exactly the same moral issue as a human driver in that scenario. You've already killed someone by driving poorly, it's just a matter of who.

Not at all. If an AI car (or a normal one) is approaching a green light, where there is a red light for pedestrians, it cannot be expected to slow so far that even in the last second, it could stop if a pedestrian suddenly set off against the lights. It is not that the AI has failed, it is that someone else has broken the rules. At that point the decision becomes do you risk the occupants of the vehicle, that have themselves done nothing wrong or the pedestrian who has.

In which case, if the AI is following the rules the same as a sane driver would (which is always to apply caution around pedestrians) then you hit the pedestrian if nothing else can be done. You don't swerve off the road and kill your occupants. Same as with a real driver, you do an emergency stop.

As far as self driving cars in terms of real practicality though, the future is essentially when humans are banned from driving, at least in city areas. Then the self driving cars can work more like trains and be a lot more safe and efficient.

Ooops - damage! How much has been spent developing this 'technology'? That's why the only self-driving vehicle I'd ever want to travel in is called a train!

As far as I can see the only beneficiaries are going to be lawyers

Quote from: KevTheBusDriver on October 20, 2020, 09:25:46 PM
Ooops - damage! How much has been spent developing this 'technology'? That's why the only self-driving vehicle I'd ever want to travel in is called a train!

Please do not take this question as anything other than genuine interest in my part; Have you flown on a commercial jet in the last 30 years? Chances are a very high % of that flight was flown by software.

Skyline2uk

Quote from: zwilnik on October 20, 2020, 07:42:16 PM

Quote from: stevewalker on October 20, 2020, 07:37:40 PM

Quote from: zwilnik on October 20, 2020, 05:34:16 PM

Quote from: njee20 on October 20, 2020, 05:16:49 PM
At risk of continuing that tangent there's also the fascinating hypothetical morality questions around the car deciding whether to kill its occupants or a pedestrian, and at what point that balance shifts! If a whole school ran in front of the car should it swerve and crash?!

That one's a bit of a 'poorly understood science by the media' one. In engineering terms, if the AI driving the car had to make that decision it means it's already driving too fast for the conditions and has failed. It's exactly the same moral issue as a human driver in that scenario. You've already killed someone by driving poorly, it's just a matter of who.

Not at all. If an AI car (or a normal one) is approaching a green light, where there is a red light for pedestrians, it cannot be expected to slow so far that even in the last second, it could stop if a pedestrian suddenly set off against the lights. It is not that the AI has failed, it is that someone else has broken the rules. At that point the decision becomes do you risk the occupants of the vehicle, that have themselves done nothing wrong or the pedestrian who has.

In which case, if the AI is following the rules the same as a sane driver would (which is always to apply caution around pedestrians) then you hit the pedestrian if nothing else can be done. You don't swerve off the road and kill your occupants. Same as with a real driver, you do an emergency stop.

As far as self driving cars in terms of real practicality though, the future is essentially when humans are banned from driving, at least in city areas. Then the self driving cars can work more like trains and be a lot more safe and efficient.

But what if it's not one pedestrian who steps out within the braking distance, but 5 children, not looking. The car can't stop. You can't apply the same logic as a human driver (sane or not) because their response will not be the same. That's the exact scenario I said. It's not "media misunderstanding science" it's actually a very interesting facet of the software development!

Quote from: Paddy on October 20, 2020, 07:13:32 PM
That is a real shame and so frustrating.

Personally speaking I have no desire for automated cars that drive and/or park themselves.  I will make an exception for Climate Control though. 

This is not so much driven by a fear of the technology (although, as someone who has spent their entire career in the software industry I would not trust it) but rather I enjoy driving my car.  If I wanted to be a passenger then I would get a taxi, bus or train.  Even automatic gearboxes are step too far for me although sadly I think the gear shift will become a thing of the past.

My biggest bug bear is the replacement of all the knobs and switches in new cars by a touch screen.  IMHO I believe they offer a less tactile and harder to use experience.  In addition, I fear they will prove to be dangerous especially in right hand drive vehicles.  If you are not allowed to use a phone whilst driving then how on earth is a tablet any better?

Totally agree on touchscreens, you have to look at them. Physical buttons are easier to use without looking.

Like you I like driving, and have little desire for a self driving car, even if that means spending 90% of my life plodding along at 30mph behind the car in front! I do like my automatic though. It's got paddles if I want to feel a bit more involved, but it makes for very easy driving. They rarely get used, even if one gets a chance for a bit more 'spirited' driving. Always below the speed limit of course! 

Quote from: Skyline2uk on October 20, 2020, 09:53:40 PM

Quote from: KevTheBusDriver on October 20, 2020, 09:25:46 PM
Ooops - damage! How much has been spent developing this 'technology'? That's why the only self-driving vehicle I'd ever want to travel in is called a train!

Please do not take this question as anything other than genuine interest in my part; Have you flown on a commercial jet in the last 30 years? Chances are a very high % of that flight was flown by software.

Skyline2uk

Fortunately there is loads of empty sky up there and no pedestrians. I have been on flights where they do their statutory hands off landing and the plane gets slammed down, but usually pilots do their bit at both ends of the flight. In fact the definition of a good pilot is one that has the same number of take offs as landings.

I hate driving, full stop (said he, having just returned from a 500km round trip up the coast of NSW). My car is automatic, which is just as well, as after my ankle operation, there's no way I could operate a clutch pedal.

However, there is no way I would trust automatic parking, the reason for this being illustrated by the OP.

I hate driving too and don't have a car but sometimes I have to drive my wife's car.

It has a system that detects when you wander out of the lane you're in, or onto the hard shoulder, and the steering wheel moves on its own to correct your trajectory.

I hate it ! It makes me jump when the steering wheel moves without me turning it.

In my opinion that is dangerous.

Having been a Sales Manager (all mouth and motorway) and having put 100,000 miles each on 4 cars (cheapskate company) + my own personal mileage I consider I've driven at least to the moon and back. I just love driving but the thought of how a self drive car would act on an English motorway with the current standard of driving makes me shudder. I wonder how many appointments I'd miss
Here's another thought. Build the self drive cars with access to the controls by police forces and we wouldn't have these high speed chases in which innocents get caught

Quote from: Malc on October 20, 2020, 11:04:49 PM
... In fact the definition of a good pilot is one that has the same number of take offs as landings.

So all the bad ones are still up there then 

Until I retired two years ago (great timing on my part!), I was doing 125+ miles a day commute to Reading.  The M4 was a nightmare especially after Newbury but modern cars are warm, safe, smooth and very easy to drive.  The TomTom did its best to avoid the worst delays and I just popped the wireless on and made my way calmly.  It never ceased to amaze me how many people were in a rush to get to their graves.  Despite my personal dislike for auto driving cars, one would have to admit that they cannot be much worse than some of the exploits I saw on the M4!

I suppose BMW will have to change its strapline from "The Ultimate Driving Machine" to "The Ultimate Driverless Machine". 

Kind regards

Paddy

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 21, 2020, 11:39:47 AM
I hate driving too and don't have a car but sometimes I have to drive my wife's car.

It has a system that detects when you wander out of the lane you're in, or onto the hard shoulder, and the steering wheel moves on its own to correct your trajectory.

Yep, I also have that, and hate it, got switched off on its second journey! It wasn't a very positive correction (that I found), but it would certainly provide a marked 'resistance' to the wheel if you moved toward the centre line.

Mine also beeps very loudly if it thinks you've not seen something and might collide - so if a car in front indicates and slows down, but you don't match their speed (becuase they're about to get out of the way and you're not right behind them) you get this massive red exclamation mark taking up the entire dashboard, I guess it's designed to make you jump, in case you're actually not paying atteniton, but it's happened three times, and terrified me (for all the wrong reasons) each time! Did it once for someone on a ladder beside the road, presumably thought I was going to hit them or something.

Quote from: njee20 on October 21, 2020, 01:18:42 PM

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 21, 2020, 11:39:47 AM
I hate driving too and don't have a car but sometimes I have to drive my wife's car.

It has a system that detects when you wander out of the lane you're in, or onto the hard shoulder, and the steering wheel moves on its own to correct your trajectory.

Yep, I also have that, and hate it, got switched off on its second journey! It wasn't a very positive correction (that I found), but it would certainly provide a marked 'resistance' to the wheel if you moved toward the centre line.

Mine also beeps very loudly if it thinks you've not seen something and might collide - so if a car in front indicates and slows down, but you don't match their speed (becuase they're about to get out of the way and you're not right behind them) you get this massive red exclamation mark taking up the entire dashboard, I guess it's designed to make you jump, in case you're actually not paying atteniton, but it's happened three times, and terrified me (for all the wrong reasons) each time! Did it once for someone on a ladder beside the road, presumably thought I was going to hit them or something.

Ah yes, the danger of a "false positive", at least you have turned off the wheel thing. The "alert you are going to hit something" could become a classic case of the electronic "boy who cried wolf".

As with all electronic nannies, this sort of thing needs very very careful thought in terms of "human factors", lest it cause an accident.

And to think I get annoyed when my Focus suggest when it's time to change gear!

Skyline2uk

This reminds of tyre pressure monitor I had on one of my Audis.  The damn thing was forever reporting a low tyre but not once was it right!  In fact, the one time I had a puncture it did not spot it. 

Kind regards

Paddy

Quote from: njee20 on October 20, 2020, 10:41:27 PM
I do like my automatic though. It's got paddles if I want to feel a bit more involved

Helpful in flooding situations