Quote from: NeMo on August 27, 2019, 11:22:54 AM
We still aren't getting Kato quality at Kato prices -- we're getting Dapol quality at Kato prices. I'm sure Dapol (and Farish) are boxed in a bit here because of the small volume of the UK market, so sort of accept this as the price to be paid for having nicely detailed, authentic UK locos made relatively cheaply. But it's still annoying for anyone used to Kato's reliability.

Sadly the market for UK outline isn't big enough to warrant the larger production runs Kato produce with the associated reduction in prices.

We're still behind in mechanical/electrical running qualities and the prices are still higher:

Kato 8 car Eurostar - £210
Farish 8 car Western Pullman - £350
(both Osborns, Pullman available for less than £300 elsewhere, and Eurostar for less than £180)

Kato SD70 - £99 (Osborns)
Farish 66 - £109 (Osborns)

It's amazing to think that when the Blue-Ribbon Mk1s first came out they were less than a fiver more than the Poole era models and still less than £20; Now they're over £30 and it's increasingly difficult to justify upgrading older stock. I'm in two minds about the air-con Mk2s - do I replace my existing three trains with one of the newer models or carry on with what I've got? (safe in the knowledge that I've got far more than I need!). If I wait and change my mind then I'll end up paying more as prices will rise with A, B and C releases.

Steven B.

Quote from: Doc Pye on August 27, 2019, 03:21:12 PM
So does anyone have a spare N Gauge Society Dapol 2P-000-300 Collett K41 Full Brake Coach in GWR colors suitable for pre-WW2 they would want to part with that won't cost me a kidney???

post this in small ads/wanted for a better response ( if you're lucky)

nr

Set up an eBay alert, asking on here is probably about as likely as asking down your local pub!

The new price isn't particularly relevant to the second hand value though. If my house cost £20k when it was new that's totally irrelevant now, you have to pay market price. If you don't like that you seek a cheaper option or you don't buy. Never quite understood correlating new cost to what something should now be worth.

Quote from: njee20 on August 28, 2019, 12:56:20 PM
Never quite understood correlating new cost to what something should now be worth.

That's an old idea going back to Publilius Syrus -- "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it."

It's why 'value' is a subjective concept, and it's very difficult to say with absolute certainty that one thing is good value when the other isn't.

Still, following on from what others are saying, @Doc Pye, if you're an NGS Member (and if not, why not!?) then putting an add (free!) in the Classified ads in the Newsletter would be well worthwhile. Everyone reading it will be an N gauge modeller and at least some will have the coach you're after. You might even state what you're willing to pay, or perhaps more useful, offer a swap. There are bound to be people who have that coach, have changed their modelling theme, and would be more than happy to swap for something else, like the Thompson full brake currently available in the NGS Shop.

Cheers, NeMo

@njee20 

QuoteThe new price isn't particularly relevant to the second hand value though.

Of course it is relevant, as it gives one a benchmark for the item. And of course market prices dictate things but if you have no idea what the item cost 'new' then you can't possibly make an informed decision about its value. That is just plain common sense. As for UK property prices, they are and remain completely out of whack but the correction is already coming.

@NeMo as for the NGS, I use to be a member a long long time ago...but when I exited the hobby I just lost touch. I am not sure if I want to join again, as with age, I am less inclined to be a 'joiner' these days    I do hope the NGS is able to sort out the decals situation, as I know the man sorting them out had severe health issues. I guess that's the point, as we are all getting older!

Thanks to everyone on their input.

Given everyone's comments, it seems odd to me that Dapol didn't make this K41 model a general release. Perhaps the NGS holds the rights on it, not sure. In any event, while it would be nice to have one I would not be willing to pay a 'kidney' for one. If someone else is, more power to them, but for me it is just not good use of resources.

But it's worth what people will pay. The new price is a component of that, but a small one. Say Dapol were commissioned to make a loco, then sold off 10 of them, but they were only £20. Would you expect it to have a lower second hand value too?

If you think the listed price is too much that's enough. If it sells at that price then the market disagrees. We often see things listed for hugely optimistic prices which don't sell, that's just the market saying it's too expensive. Models with an identical new price often have wildly different second hand values, due to popularity, scarcity etc.

Quote from: Doc Pye on August 28, 2019, 03:30:30 PM
Given everyone's comments, it seems odd to me that Dapol didn't make this K41 model a general release. Perhaps the NGS holds the rights on it, not sure.

With Dapol limited editions the tooling is owned by the Society (Collett K41 Full Brake, Snowplough & Stove R).

Those done with Bachmann/Farish are a time limited exclusive. After around 3 years the tooling reverts to Bachmann and they can re-release models as they see fit - hence the LMS Inspection Saloon has become a standard release. No doubt the Thompson BG and Mk1 Carflat will follow suit in a year or two.

Steven B

Quote from: Steven B on August 28, 2019, 09:36:27 AM
It's amazing to think that when the Blue-Ribbon Mk1s first came out they were less than a fiver more than the Poole era models and still less than £20; Now they're over £30 and it's increasingly difficult to justify upgrading older stock.

Probably heading OT....but:

When the first new tool Mk1s arrived, I bought a significant number, cost £13 each, and that was in 2011. Inflated, this is now approximately £15.71 (average inflation 2.4%); the actual prices are now 3x the £13 a coach I paid - such that I've actually retained ones I was planning to sell on in the off chance I find I need them.

We can all speculate, moan, grumble and cite various reasons for the rises (lets not go there), but I think the key thing is that this level of change (average inflation ~13-15% per annum) is going to influence the hobby - it simply must.

Will you be buying less?

I already am, and the old unfinished modelling projects have started coming out of mothballs.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on August 28, 2019, 07:56:44 PM
I already am, and the old unfinished modelling projects have started coming out of mothballs.

Certainly true for me. I'm focusing on kits or scratch-builds, on repainting and detailing older models, or even simply buying fun, older models (like Peco or Minitrix locos) that just happen to appeal. I can't remember the last time I bought a new British-outline model!

Cheers, NeMo

you wonder is the costs are such , it may be worth bringing production back to the UK.. if they can get the moulds out of the chinese hands..

Quote from: The Q on August 29, 2019, 01:34:21 PM
you wonder is the costs are such , it may be worth bringing production back to the UK.. if they can get the moulds out of the chinese hands..

Then it would cost even more, the chinese minimum wage is still very low, even after wage hikes over the past few years, 300 USD /month in Guangdong province where most of the factories are, and anyhow Bachman/Farish have their hands tied as they are owned by Kader.

John P

Quote from: The Q on August 29, 2019, 01:34:21 PM
you wonder is the costs are such , it may be worth bringing production back to the UK.. if they can get the moulds out of the chinese hands..

That would only increase production costs - look at average wages of the UK and China. Last time I looked China was still about 25% of the wages of the UK. So bringing production back would increase assembly and decoration costs 4 fold.

Cheers Mike

QuoteSo bringing production back would increase assembly and decoration costs 4 fold.

With all due respect, your figures (and your premise) are not correct at all. Your excluding shipping, taxes, FX rates, and loads of other factors. The key question to ask is whether or not one can produce a quality product at a given price point (cost point too) in any given location. That's simple business thinking, and sadly one many people don't always grasp.

Ask yourself why Union Mills can produce better locos (motor wise) than others? And also why UM can offer its locos at a much lower price point?

People always want to assume labor is a major component in manufacturing but it really does depend on what you are making. Also, it is important to note that China is not cheap to produce in (there are loads of other cheaper options, like Vietnam). There are loads of other problems associated with working with Chinese suppliers.

Add to that the limited appeal of the UK train market, perhaps it would be more advantageous to produce items somewhere else, like in the UK.

Mike's figures, and logic, are spot on. He didn't say the cost of the model would increase 4-fold, but the cost of assembly and painting (ie the bits you're basically only paying labour for), would. That's correct.

Yes that'll be marginally offset by a reduction in the things you mention.

You may also want to double check who Mike is before you tell him how to run a business

Thanks for the lecture, I'm fully aware of all that (having run a Model Train manufacturing company for the last 5 years!) but on paid for tooling (which is what was being discussed then employment costs are the major fact.

Currency, shipping etc is peanuts compared to production costs.

UM is not a particularly helpful analogy as they produce a (deliberately) limited range which is well-regarded. However there is no real secret to why their costs are lower ie one man band, selling direct, with limited details ie less assembly and simpler liveries (ie little or no tampo printing). Great at what Colin does but not comparable to Farish or Dapol or even dare I say it what we produce - please note I'm not claiming one is better just that they are very different business models.

One of the main advantages that China has for model train manufacturers is they have the skills readily accessible and very professional they are too. The same is not true of the UK. I've seen quotes from UK tool makers that would cost the same for tooling as two complete assembled models in China. The greatest irony being that the UK company was still outsourcing the actual tooling to China to be brought back.