N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Doc Pye on August 26, 2019, 11:43:55 PM

Title: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on August 26, 2019, 11:43:55 PM
As I have said before, I have come back into the hobby in the last year or so and have been playing catch up on all the latest developments, of which there have been many.

I recently spotted an interesting item on eBay that I thought would be useful for my collection, namely the following:

N Gauge Society Dapol 2P-000-300 Collett K41 Full Brake Coach BR GWR Chocolate

I was pretty sticker shocked when it sold for +£40....see below

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303258309695?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2546137.m43663.l10137 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303258309695?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2546137.m43663.l10137)

So my question is, how much did these things costs when they were first release by the N-Gauge Society and are any still about for a reasonable price?

As a follow-up query, why has N-Gauge gotten so darn expensive???
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: RailGooner on August 27, 2019, 12:00:21 AM
My 2P-000-307 cost £30 (inc. P&P) in 2015. It's insured value is £50.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: jpendle on August 27, 2019, 01:53:17 AM

As a follow-up query, why has N-Gauge gotten so darn expensive???

Probably when we started getting highly detailed models from Dapol & Farish around 5 years ago.

Even Revolutions Mk5's are about 37.50 pounds, and that's without retail mark ups.

The pound isn't doing well, so as everything is made in China that also has an effect.

Farish seems to be particularly expensive, but Dapol prices have gone up as well.

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: NGS-PO on August 27, 2019, 08:59:22 AM
In fairness, with regard to the OP's particular subject, the NGS Collet Brake, this was an exclusive model for the NGS and is no longer available, being completely sold out, has not been included in Dapol's main range (I'm not sure whether the commissioning agreement even allows for that) and so is likely to attract a premium for those who really want one.

The NGS also offered, and still has in stock, Thompson's full brakes; all but one of the produced liveries are in stock @£28.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: NeMo on August 27, 2019, 09:05:39 AM
As a follow-up query, why has N-Gauge gotten so darn expensive???

It's not just toy trains. My other hobby is tropical fish. For years and years I've not needed to buy any new fish, but this summer decided to have a bit of a sort out and refresh the tank. A school of tetras (little colourful chaps from the Amazon) that would have cost around £8-10 for six are now more like £12-15 for six.

Some of that's inflation, I'm sure, but most of it is down to the weak pound. Politics isn't a popular topic with moderators here, but suffice it to say that against the US Dollar the Pound Sterling is weaker than it has been for a long while, and since international wholesale prices are often done in US dollars, that means the price in Pounds has gone up dramatically.

Of course a weak Pound is great if you're an exporter of things grown and made in the UK -- pork pie manufacturers seem to be in the news a lot recently -- because it makes your prices more attractive to someone paying in US Dollars. But if anyone in the UK needs something that almost by definition needs to be made abroad (tropical fish fit that bill nicely!) then things look much grimmer. It seems unlikely the Pound is going to strengthen anytime soon, especially if PM Johnson wants to keep the Pound weak to encourage exports. Indeed, he may choose to allow the Pound to weaken still further, in which case expect further increases in prices of things imported from China.

You could argue, I suppose, that this might encourage manufacturer of toy train bits in the UK. Certainly, Union Mills prices are starting to look insanely competitive, almost pocket money prices by comparison to Farish and Dapol! But even if Farish or Dapol decide to switch manufacturing back to the UK, that would take years to do, and it would surely take a very long time to pay off any such investment in machinery, logistics, property, and staff training. So except in the most trivially small situations, I'd be highly surprised if either manufacturers chose to do that.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: LASteve on August 27, 2019, 09:14:26 AM

Some of that's inflation, I'm sure, but most of it is down to the weak pound. Politics isn't a popular topic with moderators here, but suffice it to say that against the US Dollar the Pound Sterling is weaker than it has been for a long while, and since international wholesale prices are often done in US dollars, that means the price in Pounds has gone up dramatically.


I'm on the upside of this equation, living in the US. I gave myself a "trade embargo" a few months ago to keep my dollars in the bank, or my retirement fund, but recently the exchange rate has got so attractive that I've bought at least six items on eBay or direct from the forum in the last month. Next year it'll all calm down again, but if I can spend almost 1-1 USD - GBP than it's a tough argument not to do so.

I'm not in love with the pork pie prospect, but if import restrictions against black pudding were to be removed, I'd be a VERY happy camper.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Bealman on August 27, 2019, 09:26:48 AM
Black puddin'??! You are weird.  :sick2:

Anyway, your up-coming visit to TINGS will sort your wallet out, Steve.  ;D

I had every intention of being there until me ankle went pear shaped. Bloody shame, would have loved to have had meet up!  :beers:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: LASteve on August 27, 2019, 09:33:48 AM
I had every intention of being there until me ankle went pear shaped.

You've got a pear-shaped ankle? That's serious stuff. Just wait until it goes sausage-side-up and then you'll be pleading for a pork pie and some black pudding for (comic) relief.

Mrs Steve also shares your disdain for all things black pudding, but she's a trooper. She wanted a ticket to TINGS also, much to my surprise. I think it's a cunning plan to divert to Birmingham for a balti. She was there 30 years ago and still talks about it.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Bealman on August 27, 2019, 09:42:00 AM
It sounds like an awesome day out for both of you. Enjoy!!

And by the way, I quite like a bit of black pudding in moderation.  :beers:

Full TINGS report expected!  :thumbsup:

Thread hijack.... sorry!
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Newportnobby on August 27, 2019, 10:26:43 AM
I would suggest one of the main developments while Doc Pye was absent from the hobby was the Chinese government insisting wages for their workers should rise by 20% every year for a 5 year period. Whether that was a decent thing to do I'll leave to the individual. However, my opinion is Farish made 'much more use' of this than Dapol resulting in some large disparities when comparing, for example, coach prices.

As to the K41 availability, every now and then someone queries the wisdom of pre ordering or snapping up items when they are issued and this carriage is a prime example of losing out on a limited run. Obviously not applicable in this case as a long absence could be the cause.
Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: LASteve on August 27, 2019, 10:33:57 AM
Hopefully not derailing the thread, but just in the last couple of days I received a Farish, recent model (Chinese) Mk1 Buffet Car in BR Blue/Grey. Frankly, I was stunned by the detail and the quality of the model. This damn thing is six inches long and the quite incredible detailing is beyond description.

So - maybe you get what you pay for. The coach was not cheap, but, hellfire, it's not cheap to look at either.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: NeMo on August 27, 2019, 11:22:54 AM
Hopefully not derailing the thread,
I'd say you're re-railing it!

Frankly, I was stunned by the detail and the quality of the model. This damn thing is six inches long and the quite incredible detailing is beyond description.
Oh, that's certainly part of the story. A modern 'blue riband' Mk1 coach is substantially better than the ones Farish was selling ten or so years ago. Those older coaches went for about £12-14 the last time I bought some, which was at least ten years ago.

According to the official UK inflation calculator, that works out at around £16-19. Modern blue riband coaches of the same prototype, albeit to a higher standard, are retailing at around £36 from the box shifters. So they cost twice as much, even allowing for inflation. That means the question is are they twice as good? I'd say they are, but let's remember that many other things we buy not only better across the same time interval but cheaper as well -- computers, phones, and other electronics in particular.

So in short, "stuff" is definitely much more expensive, well beyond what inflation can explain. Partly exchange rates are a factor, and even if the models were identical, they'd cost more. But the models themselves are not the same, but more complex and detailed, which means more labour is needed, and as Chinese labour costs increase (perhaps becoming more liveable and fair) exchange rates really start to bite.

HOWEVER, the big caveat to this is while I'd accept UK outline rolling stock is now as good as anything you'd see in the US, Japan, or Germany from the big manufacturers, the locomotives remain less reliable. We still aren't getting Kato quality at Kato prices -- we're getting Dapol quality at Kato prices. I'm sure Dapol (and Farish) are boxed in a bit here because of the small volume of the UK market, so sort of accept this as the price to be paid for having nicely detailed, authentic UK locos made relatively cheaply. But it's still annoying for anyone used to Kato's reliability.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on August 27, 2019, 03:21:12 PM
So does anyone have a spare N Gauge Society Dapol 2P-000-300 Collett K41 Full Brake Coach in GWR colors suitable for pre-WW2 they would want to part with that won't cost me a kidney???

 :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: PLD on August 27, 2019, 04:18:32 PM
According to the official UK inflation calculator, that works out at around £16-19. Modern blue riband coaches of the same prototype, albeit to a higher standard, are retailing at around £36 from the box shifters. So they cost twice as much, even allowing for inflation. That means the question is are they twice as good? I'd say they are...
That's the selling point for me... If you take an old type coach as a starting point, could you produce an equivalent standard of detail as the Blue Riband version for the cost difference either by dong it yourself pricing up materials and your own labour at Minimum Wage c £8.50/hour or employing a professional.

I bet you the price of a Blue Riband Mk1 you couldn't... ...  :D
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Ben A on August 27, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
We still aren't getting Kato quality at Kato prices -- we're getting Dapol quality at Kato prices. I'm sure Dapol (and Farish) are boxed in a bit here because of the small volume of the UK market, so sort of accept this as the price to be paid for having nicely detailed, authentic UK locos made relatively cheaply.

Cheers, NeMo

Nail hit on head.  The low UK volume is the kicker compared to US, German and particularly Japanese markets.

BUT... I have a sense that model railways is enjoying a renaissance.  We have shows that don't just poke fun at it, and if you go into any branch of WHSmith's you'll see more railway magazines than ever before.

Add to this that Kato are at TINGS to launch their new British range, starting with a Class 800 in N and a couple of 009 steam locos, and you start to see real possibilities.

It is my view that while there is always going to be some grumbling about price it is far better to have high quality models we can be proud of, than have to suffer the jibes of N gauge models being like "cake decorations."

I agree that chassis qualities is the next big challenge.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Steven B on August 28, 2019, 09:36:27 AM
We still aren't getting Kato quality at Kato prices -- we're getting Dapol quality at Kato prices. I'm sure Dapol (and Farish) are boxed in a bit here because of the small volume of the UK market, so sort of accept this as the price to be paid for having nicely detailed, authentic UK locos made relatively cheaply. But it's still annoying for anyone used to Kato's reliability.

Sadly the market for UK outline isn't big enough to warrant the larger production runs Kato produce with the associated reduction in prices.

We're still behind in mechanical/electrical running qualities and the prices are still higher:

Kato 8 car Eurostar - £210
Farish 8 car Western Pullman - £350
(both Osborns, Pullman available for less than £300 elsewhere, and Eurostar for less than £180)

Kato SD70 - £99 (Osborns)
Farish 66 - £109 (Osborns)

It's amazing to think that when the Blue-Ribbon Mk1s first came out they were less than a fiver more than the Poole era models and still less than £20; Now they're over £30 and it's increasingly difficult to justify upgrading older stock. I'm in two minds about the air-con Mk2s - do I replace my existing three trains with one of the newer models or carry on with what I've got? (safe in the knowledge that I've got far more than I need!). If I wait and change my mind then I'll end up paying more as prices will rise with A, B and C releases.

Steven B.

Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Railwaygun on August 28, 2019, 10:00:46 AM
So does anyone have a spare N Gauge Society Dapol 2P-000-300 Collett K41 Full Brake Coach in GWR colors suitable for pre-WW2 they would want to part with that won't cost me a kidney???

 :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

post this in small ads/wanted for a better response ( if you're lucky)

nr
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: njee20 on August 28, 2019, 12:56:20 PM
Set up an eBay alert, asking on here is probably about as likely as asking down your local pub!

The new price isn't particularly relevant to the second hand value though. If my house cost £20k when it was new that's totally irrelevant now, you have to pay market price. If you don't like that you seek a cheaper option or you don't buy. Never quite understood correlating new cost to what something should now be worth.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: NeMo on August 28, 2019, 01:49:12 PM
Never quite understood correlating new cost to what something should now be worth.

That's an old idea going back to Publilius Syrus -- "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it."

It's why 'value' is a subjective concept, and it's very difficult to say with absolute certainty that one thing is good value when the other isn't.

Still, following on from what others are saying, @Doc Pye (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7313), if you're an NGS Member (and if not, why not!?) then putting an add (free!) in the Classified ads in the Newsletter would be well worthwhile. Everyone reading it will be an N gauge modeller and at least some will have the coach you're after. You might even state what you're willing to pay, or perhaps more useful, offer a swap. There are bound to be people who have that coach, have changed their modelling theme, and would be more than happy to swap for something else, like the Thompson full brake currently available in the NGS Shop.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on August 28, 2019, 03:30:30 PM
@njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147) 
Quote
The new price isn't particularly relevant to the second hand value though.
Of course it is relevant, as it gives one a benchmark for the item. And of course market prices dictate things but if you have no idea what the item cost 'new' then you can't possibly make an informed decision about its value. That is just plain common sense. As for UK property prices, they are and remain completely out of whack but the correction is already coming.

@NeMo (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=945) as for the NGS, I use to be a member a long long time ago...but when I exited the hobby I just lost touch. I am not sure if I want to join again, as with age, I am less inclined to be a 'joiner' these days  :smiley-laughing:  I do hope the NGS is able to sort out the decals situation, as I know the man sorting them out had severe health issues. I guess that's the point, as we are all getting older!

Thanks to everyone on their input.

Given everyone's comments, it seems odd to me that Dapol didn't make this K41 model a general release. Perhaps the NGS holds the rights on it, not sure. In any event, while it would be nice to have one I would not be willing to pay a 'kidney' for one. If someone else is, more power to them, but for me it is just not good use of resources.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: njee20 on August 28, 2019, 03:41:44 PM
But itís worth what people will pay. The new price is a component of that, but a small one. Say Dapol were commissioned to make a loco, then sold off 10 of them, but they were only £20. Would you expect it to have a lower second hand value too?

If you think the listed price is too much thatís enough. If it sells at that price then the market disagrees. We often see things listed for hugely optimistic prices which donít sell, thatís just the market saying itís too expensive. Models with an identical new price often have wildly different second hand values, due to popularity, scarcity etc.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Steven B on August 28, 2019, 03:45:14 PM
Given everyone's comments, it seems odd to me that Dapol didn't make this K41 model a general release. Perhaps the NGS holds the rights on it, not sure.

With Dapol limited editions the tooling is owned by the Society (Collett K41 Full Brake, Snowplough & Stove R).

Those done with Bachmann/Farish are a time limited exclusive. After around 3 years the tooling reverts to Bachmann and they can re-release models as they see fit - hence the LMS Inspection Saloon has become a standard release. No doubt the Thompson BG and Mk1 Carflat will follow suit in a year or two.

Steven B
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Dr Al on August 28, 2019, 07:56:44 PM
It's amazing to think that when the Blue-Ribbon Mk1s first came out they were less than a fiver more than the Poole era models and still less than £20; Now they're over £30 and it's increasingly difficult to justify upgrading older stock.

Probably heading OT....but:

When the first new tool Mk1s arrived, I bought a significant number, cost £13 each, and that was in 2011. Inflated, this is now approximately £15.71 (average inflation 2.4%); the actual prices are now 3x the £13 a coach I paid - such that I've actually retained ones I was planning to sell on in the off chance I find I need them.

We can all speculate, moan, grumble and cite various reasons for the rises (lets not go there), but I think the key thing is that this level of change (average inflation ~13-15% per annum) is going to influence the hobby - it simply must.

Will you be buying less?

I already am, and the old unfinished modelling projects have started coming out of mothballs.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: NeMo on August 28, 2019, 08:04:55 PM
I already am, and the old unfinished modelling projects have started coming out of mothballs.

Certainly true for me. I'm focusing on kits or scratch-builds, on repainting and detailing older models, or even simply buying fun, older models (like Peco or Minitrix locos) that just happen to appeal. I can't remember the last time I bought a new British-outline model!

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: The Q on August 29, 2019, 01:34:21 PM
you wonder is the costs are such , it may be worth bringing production back to the UK.. if they can get the moulds out of the chinese hands..
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: jpendle on August 29, 2019, 02:18:16 PM
you wonder is the costs are such , it may be worth bringing production back to the UK.. if they can get the moulds out of the chinese hands..

Then it would cost even more, the chinese minimum wage is still very low, even after wage hikes over the past few years, 300 USD /month in Guangdong province where most of the factories are, and anyhow Bachman/Farish have their hands tied as they are owned by Kader.

John P
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: red_death on August 29, 2019, 02:18:54 PM
you wonder is the costs are such , it may be worth bringing production back to the UK.. if they can get the moulds out of the chinese hands..

That would only increase production costs - look at average wages of the UK and China. Last time I looked China was still about 25% of the wages of the UK. So bringing production back would increase assembly and decoration costs 4 fold.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on August 29, 2019, 03:37:12 PM
Quote
So bringing production back would increase assembly and decoration costs 4 fold.

With all due respect, your figures (and your premise) are not correct at all. Your excluding shipping, taxes, FX rates, and loads of other factors. The key question to ask is whether or not one can produce a quality product at a given price point (cost point too) in any given location. That's simple business thinking, and sadly one many people don't always grasp.

Ask yourself why Union Mills can produce better locos (motor wise) than others? And also why UM can offer its locos at a much lower price point?

People always want to assume labor is a major component in manufacturing but it really does depend on what you are making. Also, it is important to note that China is not cheap to produce in (there are loads of other cheaper options, like Vietnam). There are loads of other problems associated with working with Chinese suppliers.

Add to that the limited appeal of the UK train market, perhaps it would be more advantageous to produce items somewhere else, like in the UK.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: njee20 on August 29, 2019, 04:01:52 PM
Mike's figures, and logic, are spot on. He didn't say the cost of the model would increase 4-fold, but the cost of assembly and painting (ie the bits you're basically only paying labour for), would. That's correct.

Yes that'll be marginally offset by a reduction in the things you mention.

You may also want to double check who Mike is before you tell him how to run a business ;)
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: red_death on August 29, 2019, 04:03:55 PM
Thanks for the lecture, I'm fully aware of all that (having run a Model Train manufacturing company for the last 5 years!) but on paid for tooling (which is what was being discussed then employment costs are the major fact.

Currency, shipping etc is peanuts compared to production costs.

UM is not a particularly helpful analogy as they produce a (deliberately) limited range which is well-regarded. However there is no real secret to why their costs are lower ie one man band, selling direct, with limited details ie less assembly and simpler liveries (ie little or no tampo printing). Great at what Colin does but not comparable to Farish or Dapol or even dare I say it what we produce - please note I'm not claiming one is better just that they are very different business models.

One of the main advantages that China has for model train manufacturers is they have the skills readily accessible and very professional they are too. The same is not true of the UK. I've seen quotes from UK tool makers that would cost the same for tooling as two complete assembled models in China. The greatest irony being that the UK company was still outsourcing the actual tooling to China to be brought back. 
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: railsquid on August 29, 2019, 04:08:52 PM

UM is not a particularly helpful analogy as they produce a (deliberately) limited range which is well-regarded. However there is no real secret to why their costs are lower ie one man band, selling direct, with limited details ie less assembly and simpler liveries (ie little or no tampo printing).

Also I think Union Mills is exempt from VAT.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on August 29, 2019, 06:54:02 PM
Quote
Thanks for the lecture, I'm fully aware of all that (having run a Model Train manufacturing company for the last 5 years!) but on paid for tooling (which is what was being discussed then employment costs are the major fact.

Currency, shipping etc is peanuts compared to production costs.

Well with that attitude I wish your venture the best of luck going forward. I would suggest, in a very friendly way, that you gain more knowledge about the 'peanut' costs you referred to, as they aren't necessarily accurate. But hey, it is your business to do as you like, and for the market to decide if you win or lose, which is still a great thing about capitalism.

Quote
You may also want to double check who Mike is before you tell him how to run a business ;)

And yes, I do know that Mike is listed as a Director at Revolution Trains. I have never done any business with them so can't comment further but from what I have read people are happy with what they are doing. And I wish them all the best, as I know how hard it is to run successful businesses.


Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: njee20 on August 29, 2019, 07:05:29 PM
This is like epic mansplaining! Revolution has produced and shipped literally thousands of units from China, I suspect Mike has a reasonable handle on the numbers, even if heís probably too polite to defend himself as vigorously as is deserved!
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on August 29, 2019, 07:11:01 PM
Quote
This is like epic mansplaining!
Now there is a phrase one doesn't hear every day.

FYI, I wasn't attacking anyone and if you would read - instead of you attacking - perhaps you would get that point.

Like I said, I wish him well, plain and simple.


Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: exmouthcraig on August 29, 2019, 07:35:43 PM
revolutioN are winning. They have been for a good while as far as I can tell and continue to do so with their fantastically produced perfect examples of wonderful rolling stock.

And with their steam engine coming as well as diesels produced I suspect GF and Dapol are particularly envious of their succes and their winning streak will continue.

Never met either Ben or Mike other then the times Mr Ando appears on tele BUT I have had communication with both through this forum and they are the nicest blokes I think you could meet, passionate about their business, their customers, the industry we all love and their success and I think that's a rare thing these days especially with how successful their business is.

I'm very pleased they are so successful and have shaken the industry up a considerable amount for the better and Im more then happy to buy their items that suit my era, which isn't nearly enough guys!!

 :beers: to revolutioN
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: njee20 on August 29, 2019, 07:47:19 PM
Quote
This is like epic mansplaining!
Now there is a phrase one doesn't hear every day.

FYI, I wasn't attacking anyone and if you would read - instead of you attacking - perhaps you would get that point.

Like I said, I wish him well, plain and simple.

I didnít suggest you were attacking (and Iím not attacking you), but you originally told Mike how his estimate of the costs were wrong (from a position of ignorance I assume, not unreasonable if youíve not been around for a few years), then told him he needs to better understand the costs associated with his business, even once you claim to know who Revolution are.

Perhaps it was unintentional, but your well wishes read as very condescending.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Newportnobby on August 29, 2019, 08:48:52 PM
Global Moderator Comment Please cease the sniping, agree to differ and move on. The thread is fast becoming a battleground
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Leon on August 30, 2019, 12:08:12 AM
I was pretty sticker shocked when it sold for +£40

It's astounding to me that there were six distinct bidders for this item which sold for 43.50 GBP + shipping charges! For me, it speaks clearly to the hobbyists having a lot more money than me, or the extent to which some people become addicted to our hobby and will pay any price for the object they want/need. I suppose, to be charitable, one can imagine the last two bidders are investors. Prices will go up further, no doubt, but in real terms, the price for this coach will unlikely appreciate further.

Leon
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Ben A on August 30, 2019, 01:42:22 AM

Hi Doc Pye,

MIke and I will be on the Revolution Stand at the Internaional N Gauge Show in just over  a fortnight's time.

If you're able to visit please come and have a chat. 

Getting production back to the UK would make life a lot easier for us, and be something that would almost certainly be popular with modellers, but in practical terms - for a variety of reasons that I'd be happy to debate with you - we think it's currently a non-starter.

That is not to say it can't ever happen, but aside from the labour costs there are a number of specialist skills that would require significant levels of training and investment to even start approaching the standards we now expect.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: LASteve on August 30, 2019, 02:16:09 AM
MIke and I will be on the Revolution Stand at the Internaional N Gauge Show in just over  a fortnight's time.

Hi Mke and Ben - wy wife and I will be at TINGS after a long trip from Los Angeles, I'll stop by the stand and say hi! This thread has got a little ridiculous in terms of who values what at what price. I posted earlier - the quality of the models is quite astounding, and I budget my income according to what I think i can spend on the hobby. If anyone has income-envy, don't bother fighting about it. I'm in no way a wealthy man, my wife and I decide on priorities, and we save for the luxuries we want.

Which includes admission to TINGS.

We're looking forward to seeing you on Sunday 15th.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Bealman on August 30, 2019, 03:07:13 AM
Well said, Steve. Good one, mate  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: exmouthcraig on August 30, 2019, 07:03:35 AM
Earlier this year I paid £63 for one coach I wanted, had never seen in a shop or online before so got into a bidding war and had to win at all costs, maybe I'm fortunate to be able to spend that much on one or I'm stupid  ???

Interestingly I bought 2 of the exact same coach this week and won the pair for £36.

Presumably I wasnt bidding against someone with the same win at all costs attitude this time.

We only ever have "discussions" about high prices, I have also won a brand new never out the box 4MT for £46, we never mention the poor people that loose out when we get a bargain like that  :hmmm:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: LASteve on August 30, 2019, 08:17:35 AM
We only ever have "discussions" about high prices, I have also won a brand new never out the box 4MT for £46, we never mention the poor people that loose out when we get a bargain like that  :hmmm:

I completely agree that we never hear about the "upside" when we find a good deal. I have bid on eBay on some tremendous bargains, even though I am relatively new to this hobby. But, I think I'm fair. I found a 3-car CL 101 DMU last year listed by a charity store in the UK who didn't know what they had. It was listed as a donation, three coaches, not a drivable unit. I emailed the guy listing it and told him he was selling himself short. I won the auction, and it cost me GBP60 more than he was asking, but I felt comfortable with the trade and the Colchester charity made a little more than they might have expected. It was the first set I fitted with DCC sound and I love it.

I bid on a DP1 prototype listed here in the US and won that at a bargain, but I didn't feel the need to upsell the seller - as well as it turned out, as he mailed a quite incredible diatribe to the purchaser of another item - he's on the forum, he can tell the story if he wants to share.

I also bid and won on a CL42, and a 4-CEP set, none of which are available at retail. It's up to us to decide which is a fair price for what we want to add to our collections, not to engage in arbitrary arguments about "well, it cost this new, so how can it cost this much used?"

OK, probably that's enough ramble from me. If I was being rude, I'd tell Mr. Pye what to do next, but I'll be nice.

Thank you for your attention. See any or all of you at TINGS. The flight leaves LAX on the 11th, so I think even with delays, myself and SWMBO will be there on the 15th, fingers crossed and remembering how to drive a rental stick shift sitting on the wrong side of the car and driving on the wrong side of the road on the world's narrowest notwithstanding.

Watch out, M40
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Train Waiting on August 30, 2019, 08:49:12 AM

Getting production back to the UK would make life a lot easier for us, and be something that would almost certainly be popular with modellers, but in practical terms - for a variety of reasons that I'd be happy to debate with you - we think it's currently a non-starter.

That is not to say it can't ever happen, but aside from the labour costs there are a number of specialist skills that would require significant levels of training and investment to even start approaching the standards we now expect.

Cheers

Ben A.

I think that this is an excellent summary of the situation at present.  I should be absolutely delighted to see more of our models manufactured in the UK.  I make a definite and continuing effort to support UK model manufacturing.

By the early 1980s it looked very likely that the UK motorcycle industry was dead, at least for volume production.  And just look at Triumph now!  A case study with regard to Ben's closing paragraph.

I live in hope, but accept for the present that the very nice carriages on my layout are produced overseas.  And, yes, although these are expensive, I still bought an ex-SECR 'Birdcage' set which is a delight.  The price is what I paid and the value is what I get.  Which is a lot of pleasure watching it trundling round my little layout behind a Union Mills locomotive.

Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Bealman on August 30, 2019, 09:04:47 AM
I was sort of hoping for a birdcage set from the Bealettes for me birthday, but seeing as I didn't even hint at it, I'll have to make do with a dozen DVDs from the Marvel universe. OK with me!  :thumbsup:

Regarding the coach in the OP, I'd quite happily pay big $$ for one if it came my way. Lovely model.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: dannyboy on August 30, 2019, 09:15:52 AM
@Train Waiting (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6222)
Whatever we think of the price of rolling stock, (or anything else for that matter), I think John has summed it up perfectly -

The price is what I paid and the value is what I get.  Which is a lot of pleasure watching it trundling round my little layout

I will pay what I think is a fair price for an item, even if it seems expensive at the time, but if I feel that it is good value, to me, the price is worth it.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Bealman on August 30, 2019, 09:33:45 AM
Exactly. I wish I'd bought one of those coaches when the NGS brought them out.

But I didn't. My stupid fault.

It's a great model, and as you say, the value is to yourself. I'd be happy even if technically I'd been ripped off.

Serves me right for not getting one in the first place.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: zwilnik on August 30, 2019, 09:34:31 AM
Think of it this way.. If you think you've paid a lot for your model railway, you should take more time to actually run it and enjoy it to get the value for money :)
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: njee20 on August 30, 2019, 09:48:04 AM
I try and avoid going down the "if only I'd bought this when they were at x price" thought process, that way madness lies! Ignoring buyer's remorse I think we're all just right to be content with the price we pay for things. I don't think you can (or should attempt to) confer wealth from others purchasing habits. Comparison to others achieves nothing.
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Dr Al on August 30, 2019, 09:56:21 AM
Getting production back to the UK would make life a lot easier for us, and be something that would almost certainly be popular with modellers, but in practical terms - for a variety of reasons that I'd be happy to debate with you - we think it's currently a non-starter.

Do you as a manufacturer feel any concern about the utter reliance we have on Chinese manufacture for, essentially, everything?

Reason I ask is the recent threads on failing and replacement coreless motors for Farish stock - it seems we are utterly reliant on Chinese sources for these components (if we can call a motor a component), with nowhere else in the world appearing to make anything equivalent, and the trouble of getting them is not insignificant.

Maybe this isn't a concern for manufacturers as much as us consumers - I'm intrigued to know.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: railsquid on August 30, 2019, 10:46:38 AM
I was sort of hoping for a birdcage set from the Bealettes for me birthday

For some reason my mind raced ahead and imagined the next part of the sentence would read something like "but now I have to go and buy some actual birds for them, remind me to be more specific next time"
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on September 06, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
To update, I finally got myself one of the K41 in GWR choc/cream (No 109) livery courtesy of 'Nighthawk'.  :claphappy: :claphappy: :claphappy: It is indeed a nice looking model!

I also quite the look of the GWR Unlined Chocolate (No 181) one but don't know if I can justify another one.

So the new question is, which trains are people using the K41's on? Since I am specific to pre-War GWR, info on that period would be most welcomed. :thankyousign:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Newportnobby on September 06, 2019, 03:36:36 PM
Calling @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207)
One for you, Matt
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Karhedron on September 06, 2019, 03:48:19 PM
So the new question is, which trains are people using the K41's on? Since I am specific to pre-War GWR, info on that period would be most welcomed. :thankyousign:

K41s were used on a variety of workings from quite prestigious to distinctly humdrum. Here are some examples:


The best way to get an idea of just how varied their uses were is to look at the brandings that were applied to them. The GWR often allocated specific vehicles to particular workings and branded them accordingly. I have compiled a list of known K41 brandings which gives a great snapshot of their working lives.

103   Return to Paddington 11 Aug 1947; "Paddington & Birmingham" 5 Jul 1952
105   Wolverhampton, Swindon & Swansea date unknown but before 25 Oct 1952
107   Milford Haven & Yeovil Fish Train: 21 Apr 1947.
108   Paddington & Plymouth: 10 Mar 1947.
109   Swindon & Plymouth: 4 Oct 1952.
111   Paddington and Shrewsbury: 3 Oct 1947. Paddington, Greenford and Chester": 8 Mar 1958.
114    "Paddington and Swansea": 8 Apr 1947.
116   Whitland & Kensington Milk Train:9 Mar 1947
117   Wooton Bassett & Kensington Milk Train 18 Mar 1947.
119   Paddington & Penzance Paddington & Shrewsbury: 27 Jul 1957.
120   Paddington & Shrewsbury: 20 Aug 1952. "Paddington, Greenford & Chester": 10 Dec 1956.
185   Milford Haven & Paddington Fish Trains: 18 Mar 1947.
186   Birmingham & Bristol: 18 Mar 1947.
190   To work between Birmingham (Snow Hill W.R.) , Banbury & York: 24 Apr 1951. Erased Aug 1953.
194   Paddington & Neyland: 18 Mar 1947.
195    "Paddington & Penzance": 18 Mar 1947. "Paddington & Penzance, Paddington & Chester": 23 Oct 1948. Photo in RC2 Fig 374.
198   Not to work off WR: 7 Jun 1958.
200   Whitland & Kensington Milk Train: 3 Aug 1947.
138    "To work between Penzance & Cardiff": 9 Aug 1938.
140    "To work 1.25 a.m. Cardiff (MX)1.28 Cardiff Saturday 4.38 pm Neyland (SX)": 1938(?). Obliterated 28 Jan 1939.
141   To work 12 noon Cardiff 7.45 p.m. Neyland 29 Jan 1938. "Paddington & Birkenhead" 14 Apr 1947.
142   Penzance & Kensington Milk Train: 18 Sep 1948.
144   Whitland & Wood Lane": 12 Dec 1936. Penzance .... & Cardiff: Apr 1947. Obliterated Feb 1955. "Penzance & Kensington": 19 Feb 1955.
145    "Milford Haven, Plymouth & Weymouth": 26 Jun 1954.
147   Swindon & Carmarthen: 28 Oct 1947.Photos in RCA2 Fig 375 & 376. This shows it also had "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN".
149   "Penzance & Kensington": 10 Sep 1955.
151    "Return to Paddington": 30 Jun 1947.
152   Paddington & Carmarthen: 18 Mar 1947. AE West photo Apr 1951 shows coach in crimson & cream with left end W 152 "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" and "PADDINGTON AND CARMARTHEN".
153   "Penzance & Manchester Exchange": May 1941.
155   To work on 6.25a.m. Fishguard Harbour to Cardiff & 12.0 Cardiff to Fishguard Harbour [date not legible.] Later Weymouth & Kensington Milk Train (No Date).
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Newportnobby on September 06, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
Smashing info, Matt, but 'Obliterated 28th Jan 1939' and 'Obliterated Feb 1955' sound very final :worried:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Karhedron on September 06, 2019, 03:59:06 PM
Smashing info, Matt, but 'Obliterated 28th Jan 1939' and 'Obliterated Feb 1955' sound very final :worried:

Don't worry, only the brandings were obliterated. No coaches were harmed in the compiling of this list.  :laugh:
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Karhedron on September 06, 2019, 04:02:40 PM
As the above list shows, milk trains were a particular popular work for these vehicles. The picture below shows a typical GWR milk train from the 1930s (the Dorrington Milk). The brake is too far to identify conclusively but it is definitely a Collett full brake.

(https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/birmingham-snowhill/locomotives/gwrbsh47.jpg)
Title: Re: So how much did the N-Gauge Society Collett K41 Full Brake Coach Cost???
Post by: Doc Pye on September 06, 2019, 04:06:48 PM
Great info Karhedron!!!!!!!!! Many thanks!!!!!!!!!! :thankyousign:
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal