Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 10:03:19 PM

Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.

Which was precisely my point - if it doesn't affect the layout and the running why does it matter.  Furthermore you started off on the premise that exhibitions were making the hobby elitist, then proceeded to set out a dress code to suit your ideals - quite frankly something guaranteed to turn off new younger members and even those of us not so young!

If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform.  If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.

Cheers, Mike

This is fascinating to me.  The club I belong to has been paid (sometimes a good deal) to exhibit at special events (e.g., a new municipal train station opening or as part of a museum display).  But aside from those special events, here in California, our club (like every other one out here) has never been paid to attend a model train exhibition.  We have never been paid a reimbursement for travel cost or a per diem.  In fact, we actually have to pay to park our cars at a show.  Travel, petrol, labor, parking, food and drink - all of this is out of each club member's individual pocket - the club budget doesn't cover any of this.  The only "freebie" we get is that we don't have to pay admission to the show!  We even all wear our club uniform shirts, which we personally have to buy ourselves.

All this and yet we don't complain because we enjoy running trains and entertaining the people at the show.  And yet we still consider ourselves to be friendly bunch of amateurs.

We wear our club uniforms because model train exhibitions here are targeted at families.  The exhibition organizers specify a dress code for exhibitors because they know that exhibitors wearing certain clothes can make some people uncomfortable, and uncomfortable people leave shows more quickly and spend less money than people who are comfortable.  Exhibition organizers who make money stay in business which means they might have enough capital to put on more shows.  It isn't about clubs or club members being elitist one iota.  It's about clubs helping the the organizers have a successful show so that their might be more shows.  As it is, there are very, very few shows here in southern California each year (<5 at a guess) which can be at least 100 miles apart, and there are what, maybe 20 million people who live in the area?  Hmm.

So I really am genuinely surprised at the attitude that professional appearances don't matter and that people should be paid to exhibit their layouts at shows.  There's nothing wrong with that attitude at all, but it is completely unfamiliar to me and is perhaps (as NeMo alluded to in a prior post) a cultural difference between the US and UK, or maybe it is just a consequence of there being so many more exhibitions in the UK than in the US that (given the geographical size of the US) any given club can actually possibly travel to and attend each year.

Matt

oreamnos

It would seem that our experiences, despite being some 4,000 miles apart are somewhat similar.  As things stand locally (New Zealand), the national practice tends to be as follows: The Model Railway Club (MRC) hires the hall, pays the hireage fee (and sometimes a monetary bond to cover 'damage' 'just in case') to the hall owner (usually a local authority or a Hall Organising Committee associated with a church or sports club). The club then puts on the show, while providing all the necessary for the viewing public (including food  BTW; hot dogs etc.).  The traders come in, pay the MRC an appropriate fee and are left in peace to do what they do best, and if any 'collector' has things to sell, he 'hires' a table from the club.  The MRC has its own 'organising committee, with a designated 'Officer in Charge' (OIC) and they do all the liaising with the Hall owners, local authorities, traders etc. while the members turn up on the day, set up their own layouts at the spot allocated to them and (literally), play trains. 

On exhibition day/s the OIC (or someone designated for the purpose) assumes a 'roving brief' and acts as a 'troubleshooter' to solve problems and make sure that both the exhibitors and viewing public have an enjoyable time. For personal health reasons (no details), I have found this individual to be absolutely essential to may own situation. They are always very good at their job. 

At the end, the exhibitors pull everything down, tidy up the venue and after an inspection of the premises by the hall owners, return the key (or pay; via the bond, for any damage), retrieve the bond and  walk away - until next year.

Such events tend to be held at the same venues on an annual or semi-annual basis, and are part of the local scene in the towns where they take place.

And in respect of payment 'to attend'?

Like you, we all go 'for the fun of it', and expect nothing in return. I travelled 600 miles (round trip) to one exhibition, meeting all my own costs (including accommodation and meals), and got nothing financially in return. I DID however get  the experience and a fun-filled three days.

Sometimes an 'expenses' cheque arrives several weeks after the event, and this is, of course always appreciated, but it it NOT sought beforehand; it is, if you will, a nice 'bonus' for an entertaining time.

As I said, our respective national experiences do seem to be similar, and it would seem that  the British way of doing things in respect of exhibitions is evidently a lot more complicated. 

Based on what has so far been written, as exhibitors in the USA and New Zealand, we would seem to be being let off lightly...

Let the discussion continue.

Quote from: Komata on August 04, 2015, 11:56:13 PM

Let the discussion continue.

Please, no.

The one message that come out of this six pages of argument is that it takes all sorts.

The other message that comes out is that some people aren't happy with that concept.

Hat, coat, door.

Perfectly made point Tony!!!

Best wishes
Simon

Quote from: Yet_Another on August 05, 2015, 12:04:05 AM

Quote from: Komata on August 04, 2015, 11:56:13 PM

Let the discussion continue.

Please, no.

The one message that come out of this six pages of argument is that it takes all sorts.

The other message that comes out is that some people aren't happy with that concept.

Hat, coat, door.

Yes - I've got to admit I was wrong...

Quote from: PLD on August 03, 2015, 09:56:51 PMthere is an equally small minority at the other end of the scale - a kind of anti-progressive "inverted snobbery".

There a worryingly large number and they all seem to be rather vocal in this thread...
 

Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 10:03:19 PM
If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform.  If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.

I think we're slamming into a UK/US difference in culture.

For a lot of Brits, being asked to make any effort to look smarter than usual is an insult, like asking them to wear their school uniform again! They simply don't accept the idea that as a club or layout operator they're the visible face of the hobby. The British like the idea of being amateurs, and for them, that means being left to get on with their own thing in their own way without any interference 'from above'.

Americans view things differently. Clubs are teams, and teams share an identity. Being given a team shirt is an act of inclusion, making that person part of a group that shares a set of values and aspirations. A team shirt isn't a uniform you're forced to wear but something you want to wear proudly. It shows that you belong to this group.

A while back I think you asked whether a heavy metal t-shirt and jeans is inappropriate. Personally, I'd say it depends on how old you are. If you're in your teens or twenties, then fine, wear your Cradle of Filth shirt with all the swagger and pride you want. But if you're in your forties or fifties, then at a public event it might come across a little bit Comic Book Guy. Of course you may have the physique of a Greek god and totally rock the look, in which case more power to you! I just don't know, and don't want to insult your sartorial choices any more than I'd want mine challenged (I've been told I dress like a hobbit).

But at the end of the day what we're talking about whether we should be making the hobby look smarter than its current crusty old man image. I think we can, and should, and part of that would be a slightly more professional approach to model train shows.

Cheers, NeMo

An interesting comment, and one which I heartily agree with. I would not go and trust my health to a doctor who was dressed like a ragamuffin. Likewise, when I was fortunate enough to be asked to return to work for 5 weeks recently to teach Physics, it was shirt and tie stuff, not ragamuffin.

As I have already posted, here in Aus we are a bit starved for exhibitions compared to the UK, but almost all exhibitors now have a 'corporate image' and are always smartly dressed with their club shirts and logos prominent.

I visit between 20 – 25 model railway shows a year, ranging between the biggies such as TINGS, Wigan and Stafford to the very small charity shows held in the local church hall. Like some others I make a beeline for the traders first in (mostly vain) attempts to find a bargain as I work on the basis the layouts will be there all day. I tend to find that layouts being run by Model Railway Clubs/Societies have their operators attired in Club regalia – mostly printed polo shirts and that the scruffier the appearance of the operator, the scruffier the layout is. Far too often I come across layouts which, and I'm being polite here, are 'tired' to say the least (torn backscenes, holes where there shouldn't be any etc). To balance this, I would not necessarily say the beardies/weirdies are not happy to discuss any aspect of the model and would further an observation that the larger the gauge the more unapproachable the operators are and that N gauge users are generally the ones up for a chat and a laugh.
My approach to looking at a layout is that, if I have seen nothing running in a span of 2 minutes or so I will walk away, possibly to return later to see if things have improved as, let's face it', gremlins can strike at any time. I'm no purist so wouldn't know if a loco had the wrong size driving wheels but I do like to see what I believe to be a prototypical train running and take the attitude if the operators want to run what they want then stay at home or in their clubrooms.
I don't believe 'bigger is better' either with layouts or the show itself, although chances are there'll be more traders at the bigger shows. Generally the bigger the show the more malodorous folks can be sensed, due to maybe the sheer numbers/hot weather/inadequate ventilation in some venues. Yes, I do carry a small rucksack but it is at least 25% smaller than some of the ones wielded as weapons by some attendees who seem oblivious to the damage they can cause by a sudden 180 degree turn and the inertia generated by their huge 'bergens'.
I, for one, believe there are many shows which have given me great pleasure and the ones that don't are in a tiny minority. As others have said, our hobby is a broad church and should be closed to no one so I am saddened to see some of the sniping that has occurred in this thread. It would possibly help any potential visitors to shows that we rate things such as signage to the venue, ventilation, lighting, facilities, refreshments, disabled access, layouts etc before giving an overall count out of 10 (although even this would be subjective dependent on an individuals experience of their visit)

Purely a personal observation.

As a man who won't even go to the post box 100 yards along the road without a jacket and tie on I agree that much can be done to smarten up both exhibitors and visitors to model railway shows, and indeed life in general.

Mick, I am immediately reminded of my visit to the Wigan show last year, and you have summed everything up very succinctly. 

George

I think Exhibition's  are only as good or as bad as the club yes we here in the UK have many show but of what kind of quality there are many show I give a wide birth too as the elitist get right on --ts  if your not  fine scale or EM  then look down at you even this forum has its elitist group  like so many other forums  I do wish some times the demi gods would take a deep breath and remember  where they come Please NOTE THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION.Mike

Quote from: NeMo on August 04, 2015, 06:19:47 PM
I like seeing layouts that inspire me, regardless of era, scale or even country. I'm almost never inspired by attention to detail though. What gets me is if the layout portrays a place and time so effectively I think I'm there.
<snip>
So long as the layouts are busy and well presented, I don't really care much whether the little pannier tank has the wrong GWR symbol for the year that the cinema posters at the station would seem to suggest.
Cheers, NeMo

Surely part of portraying a place and time effectively is all about getting the detail right. Painting a fence the correct colour or not running a BR 9F with "Gone with the Wind" is showing at the local cinema is all part of making the model more believable.

There have been comments on this thread about tin-plate three rail layouts being enjoyable - they are because of the attention making the detail consistent. Run a tin-plate loco through a town of Hornby Scaledale buildings and some of the magic will be lost.

A well operated layout, built to consistent standards will encourage the experienced modellers and the families on a day out to stay and watch the trains for a while.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

I'll add my two pennyworth for what it's worth.
Firstly, I've only exhibited at small local shows and I try to have something running all the time. Barring the occasional mishap of course. I have had people give all sorts of comments ranging from "That is fantastic and the best layout here "  to "That is only a train set and shouldn't be here at all!".  Most people however are very kind and offer their thanks, encouragement or advice/tips.
Most people are genuinely interested in how things have been achieved and it's only my opinion but as long as something is moving they are not really bothered if is prototypically correct or not. Occasionally someone will comment that I have the wrong brakevan for that freight or something similar but that's the way it goes.
Mostly, people will look, if they are interested they will linger if not they will walk on by. That is their choice and doesn't bother me one way or the other.
I do notice however that people are frequently reluctant to ask questions so I try to spot those and try to open up a conversation with them. I frequently find that they then feel happy to ask away. People are often afraid to ask a question for appearing to look silly.  Often these are people who want to start building up a model railway and have no inkling where to start.
As for trade stands. I think they are vital and add enormously to the overall appeal of a show. Only trouble is at the last show I attended as an exhibitor I ended up spending close on £200.
I don't take a fee for exhibiting at all and am happy to travel up to 50 miles or so.
I now avoid the big shows completely either as an exhibitor or visitor. There are simply too many people and frankly the last two I've been to have been very disappointing in terms of the quality of  layouts being displayed.

Quote from: Steven B on August 05, 2015, 01:13:47 PM

Quote from: NeMo on August 04, 2015, 06:19:47 PM

So long as the layouts are busy and well presented, I don't really care much whether the little pannier tank has the wrong GWR symbol for the year that the cinema posters at the station would seem to suggest.
Cheers, NeMo

Surely part of portraying a place and time effectively is all about getting the detail right. Painting a fence the correct colour or not running a BR 9F with "Gone with the Wind" is showing at the local cinema is all part of making the model more believable.

Steven B.

Ah, but is the film on its first showing? I have seen both "Reach for the Sky" and "The Dambusters" in a cinema in the late 1960s, but both films were made in the early/mid 1950s so is the film on at the local 'fleapit' any real guide?

No doubt someone will have a GWR layout with a poster for "Skyfall" on it, using Rule 1
you could say that a time traveller went back to the Thirties and stuck the poster up
for a prank................