Quote from: NeMo on August 04, 2015, 10:52:18 AM

But criticisms about the type of battery box catch on these models is to me the wrong sort of rivet counting. On a 2 mm model nobody is going to worry about them unless actively comparing them to close-up photos.

Cheers, NeMo

Sorry NeMo, but I would. Post Ealing battery box catches on maroon, or SYP blue,  Westerns (except in preserved condition) would be a case in point. The reason being because both the 'era' and livery are wrong.

But otherwise I totally support your comments.

Greg.

Quote from: tim-pelican on August 04, 2015, 06:52:15 PM

but for the bane of my life that is point motors.

Regards,
Tim.

Totally agree Tim, so much so that the points on my layout (currently building) are operated by hand.
Not so realistic, but far less trouble.

Greg.

Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 07:58:24 PM
Dress wise I've seen everything from the manky jeans & three day worn T-Shirt, to the collar & tie, and I know which one gives me a better impression, the least I would expect is smart casual and a co-ordination of club/layout/society shirt.

The irony of writing that whilst complaining about elitism and wanting to attract people to the hobby...

Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:06:48 PM

Quote from: grumbeast on August 04, 2015, 10:52:45 AMbe out from behind the layout amongst the public.

Arrgh - one of by pet hates as both an exhibitor - no escape from those who are economic with the soap; and as a viewer - I want to see the layout and the trains, not the back of the operator wandering up and down in front of me 

Wow!  Quite a reaction, and a pretty poor opinion of those people who came to see your layout...that critique could equally well apply to those behind the scenes, we're all train fans good and bad.  That said I confess it is easier to be out in front when there are 4 or 5 operators and over 50 linear feet of layout, plenty of space for everyone.  I guess I'd just mistakenly assumed that wanting to exhibit a layout meant you wanted others to see it, and by consequence wanted some level of interaction with them.  If that's not the case, just film it, stick it on YouTube,  more convenient for everyone and no risk of hygienic mishaps

That said I think your missing out on the interactionsy

Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 08:50:04 PM

Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 07:58:24 PM
Dress wise I've seen everything from the manky jeans & three day worn T-Shirt, to the collar & tie, and I know which one gives me a better impression, the least I would expect is smart casual and a co-ordination of club/layout/society shirt.

The irony of writing that whilst complaining about elitism and wanting to attract people to the hobby...

I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.

Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
But if they didn't what the heck do you think you would see for your money at exhibitions  

You're ignoring my point.  Sure, many hours and lots of money are put into the layouts (or most of them, anyway); but if you're arguing that we should bow down & worship before the exhibitors because they deign to attend ...    They're there because they want to be there; they're getting paid to be there (we've already covered that); and the paying customer expects more than what a large number give back ...  Kudos to those that do provide the entertainment, but there are far too many that think the punters should be thankful they have bothered to come ...   And most of said punters are there for the dealers, not the layouts.  You can see them in the magazines or the internet - having many dealers together means you can get items you've been hoping for, and maybe get all you're after - all in one place.

Quote
The reality is yes, exhibitors do receive payment to cover (most of) their expenses in attending, but overall in most cases they will more likely be slightly out of pocket by the end of the weekend...

Did you read my post of 8:05, as it appears you didn't ...

Quote
It is quite sad to read that the traders are a bigger attraction than the layouts, but having witnessed the spectacle of the stampede for the Bachmann stand I shouldn't be surprised (makes a herd of wilderbeeste look civilised) - from your postings in this thread you should fit in perfectly...

Thank you for the insult - I would point out that this is exhibited at pretty much the larger shows - including TINGS.  And no, I do not partake in the stampede ...

Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ?  Far too many follow this route.

We're going around in circles - various people here feel insulted because the paying public doesn't appreciate them, and the people paying the money in the first place feel they are being ripped off with layouts that are effectively in the way of those actually giving them value for money, and the stalls they want to buy from ...

Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM

Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
But if they didn't what the heck do you think you would see for your money at exhibitions  

You're ignoring my point.

NO you are ignoring the point - Exhibitors get no wage/salary or appearance fee for attending.

QuoteDid you read my post of 8:05, as it appears you didn't ...

Yep - I noticed you contradict yourself by arguing against exhibitors being paid expenses then admitting your group claims expenses... 

Quote

Quote
It is quite sad to read that the traders are a bigger attraction than the layouts, but having witnessed the spectacle of the stampede for the Bachmann stand I shouldn't be surprised (makes a herd of wilderbeeste look civilised) - from your postings in this thread you should fit in perfectly...

Thank you for the insult

You're Welcome! 

Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ?  Far too many follow this route.

QuoteWe're going around in circles -

Of course we are, because like most things in life we all want and expect different things Some go purely for traders, some (like me) avoid them unless necessary. Some expect operators to be in bow-tie and DJ, others couldn't care less what the op looks like as long as the layout is running. Some expect 100% attention-to-detail and snub their nose at "lesser" efforts, some are happy watching a trainset out of a box.

If people just accepted that others have different expectations and not everything should be tailored to their little world this whole thread based on criticising other people wouldn't even exist


Paul

Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM

Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
But if they didn't what the heck do you think you would see for your money at exhibitions  

You're ignoring my point.  Sure, many hours and lots of money are put into the layouts (or most of them, anyway); but if you're arguing that we should bow down & worship before the exhibitors because they deign to attend ...    They're there because they want to be there; they're getting paid to be there (we've already covered that); and the paying customer expects more than what a large number give back ...  Kudos to those that do provide the entertainment, but there are far too many that think the punters should be thankful they have bothered to come ...   And most of said punters are there for the dealers, not the layouts.  You can see them in the magazines or the internet - having many dealers together means you can get items you've been hoping for, and maybe get all you're after - all in one place.

Quote
The reality is yes, exhibitors do receive payment to cover (most of) their expenses in attending, but overall in most cases they will more likely be slightly out of pocket by the end of the weekend...

Did you read my post of 8:05, as it appears you didn't ...

Quote
It is quite sad to read that the traders are a bigger attraction than the layouts, but having witnessed the spectacle of the stampede for the Bachmann stand I shouldn't be surprised (makes a herd of wilderbeeste look civilised) - from your postings in this thread you should fit in perfectly...

Thank you for the insult - I would point out that this is exhibited at pretty much the larger shows - including TINGS.  And no, I do not partake in the stampede ...

Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ?  Far too many follow this route.

We're going around in circles - various people here feel insulted because the paying public doesn't appreciate them, and the people paying the money in the first place feel they are being ripped off with layouts that are effectively in the way of those actually giving them value for money, and the stalls they want to buy from ...

This really is starting to get silly and I'm not sure why you feel the need to exaggerate so aggressively in your posts.

Firstly, nobody is asking anybody to bow down and I for one feel very much appreciated at the shows I exhibit at. You're right we don't have to do it but we enjoy it and, as I said, have invites several years in advance.

Secondly where is your evidence that most people go to shows for the traders. I certainly don't and nor do most modellers I know. I go to see great modelling of all flavours.

This notion that most layouts have long spells with nothing happening simply isn't true. I walk around shows and there are trains running all over the place. If, by your own admission, you only spend a minute or less  at layouts whilst skipping between traders how do you know nothing runs for ten minutes at a time?

If you don't know the difference between being paid and a contribution to out of pocket expenses I don't know what to say really.

Jerry

The only exhibition I ever attended in the UK was the National Model Railway Exhibition at Central Hall in London in 1976 (got the program in front of me now) so I can't comment on personal experience of exhibitions.

However, I get the impression from visiting one or two web sites (not this one) that there is a "clique" of self-professed "elite modellers" whose motivation for attending exhibitions is to meet up with their mates and check out each others layouts.

Entertaining the public is not their priority, although the embarassment of locos not running properly, and having to use the "finger from the sky" certainly is.

Almost all of these guys model in gauges other than N so I'm not referring to anyone here. In fact this forum is a haven of modesty and absence of rivalry. Those of us whose layouts do feature in exhibitions are rightly chuffed but there is no element of vanity there.

Long may it continue.

Best regards,


Joe

Quote from: Sprintex on August 04, 2015, 09:16:28 PM

Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ?  Far too many follow this route.

QuoteWe're going around in circles -

Of course we are, because like most things in life we all want and expect different things Some go purely for traders, some (like me) avoid them unless necessary. Some expect operators to be in bow-tie and DJ, others couldn't care less what the op looks like as long as the layout is running. Some expect 100% attention-to-detail and snub their nose at "lesser" efforts, some are happy watching a trainset out of a box.

If people just accepted that others have different expectations and not everything should be tailored to their little world this whole thread based on criticising other people wouldn't even exist


Paul

Like all discussions, this one has tended to go off track ( no pun) a little.

It's not much to expect operators to be "well presented" whether they are operating a layout that is detailed to the eyeballs, or not.
IMO it's not too much to expect the operators to indulge in conversation with the public, personally I have never found one unwilling to do it, most are only too pleased to talk about their layout.

While referring to "elitism" I wasn't taking into consideration the expenses incurred, or how they are repaid, although from a little experience it does seem that some of the bigger layouts operators stretch the costs a little !

I was simply referring to the fact that some layouts are getting so complicated that even the operators are unable to control them properly, and this results in dead moments on the layout. some of these dead moments can last minutes as they figure out how to move some thing from the fiddle yard or the engine shed/station.

A layout can have all the bells and whistles money can buy, but if you can't operate it to entertain the public, what use is it, other than a showpiece for the size of you  wallet or the depth of your skills.

Quote from: queensquare on August 04, 2015, 09:26:46 PM
This notion that most layouts have long spells with nothing happening simply isn't true. I walk around shows and there are trains running all over the place. If, by your own admission, you only spend a minute or less  at layouts whilst skipping between traders how do you know nothing runs for ten minutes at a time?

Maybe because I asked, hmmm ?  And got told 'nothing scheduled for another xx minutes, we only run 3 trains an hour' ?   That happens far more often than you seem to realise.  I'm certainly not going to waste my time standing around waiting for the 12:23 when it's 12:05 !  And this kind of 'display' doesn't attract new people either, especially the kids.

Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 09:34:18 PM
A layout can have all the bells and whistles money can buy, but if you can't operate it to entertain the public, what use is it, other than a showpiece for the size of you  wallet or the depth of your skills.

Exactly.

Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.

Which was precisely my point - if it doesn't affect the layout and the running why does it matter.  Furthermore you started off on the premise that exhibitions were making the hobby elitist, then proceeded to set out a dress code to suit your ideals - quite frankly something guaranteed to turn off new younger members and even those of us not so young!

If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform.  If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 10:03:19 PM

Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.

Which was precisely my point - if it doesn't affect the layout and the running why does it matter.  Furthermore you started off on the premise that exhibitions were making the hobby elitist, then proceeded to set out a dress code to suit your ideals - quite frankly something guaranteed to turn off new younger members and even those of us not so young!

If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform.  If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.

Cheers, Mike

No-one is "forcing" you to do anything.
Apart from anything else operators from the same club all wearing a club shirt, is a bit of advertising, and doesn't reek of elitism.

I didn't set out the ideals of dress either, I suggest you read through all the posts, to see who brought the subject up, as for a premise, I was simply asking the question about exhibitions based on my experiences and those of some fellow club members, in plain English the emphasis seems to have moved from being "fun" to see who can spend the most money making a layout that is virtually inoperable !

Quote from: Bealman on August 04, 2015, 08:12:50 AM
Here at the Antipodes, exhibitions tend to be far apart both chronologically and geographically!

I am always staggered by the number of UK exhibitions I see advertised in mags and even on this forum. In a way you are spoiled for choice over there and are able to have this (very interesting) discussion about layout and exhibition standards. 

Too true. If you aren't in a capital city over here then you can forget seeing exhibitions. My trips to the big smoke are always poorly timed as well......