This is causing me a lot of headaches as I am not familiar with what order (formation) a rake of coaches are in. Yes I have searched the internet but am not getting the right answers. Is there any particular order a set of coaches are formed in, and if so can someone please explain before I go mad

I hope to run rakes of between 2 and 7 coaches I don't have room for anymore. I also would like to know if any LMS coaches ever run in the south east as I have 5 of these, bit of an impulse buy  you know how it goes.

And while I am asking what would have pulled SR coaches in the ealy 50s 60s in the south east of England that are available in N Gauge please, Steam or Diesel.

Any help with this would be much appreciated. Or any links as I am at a loss to find these.

Quote from: UPINSMOKE on January 26, 2015, 12:29:53 AM

I hope to run rakes of between 2 and 7 coaches I don't have room for anymore. I also would like to know if any LMS coaches ever run in the south east as I have 5 of these, bit of an impulse buy

I struggled horribly to find example rakes of Coaches, but after a pretty exhaustive trawl of the inter web came up with some rules of thumb. Can't help you with the LMR or Southern questions but here are some general answers for 2-5 coach trains. I will refer to currently available Farish Mk 1 stock to keep things simple.

1) All loco hauled trains need a brake (or guard) section. At a minimum this would mean a brake section in a coach at one end of the train and for a longer train maybe a brake coach at both ends. Examples of a brake include brake second corridor (BSK), brake composite corridor (BCK) or a full brake (BG).

2) 2-4 coach rakes would typically be used for local services and would usually be second class only. So a typical 3 coach formation might be second corridor (SK), SK, BSK. A 4 coach formation could be SK, SK, SK, BSK, or BSK, SK, SK, BSK. In later years second open coaches (SO) might replace the SK's. Occasionally first class accommodation might be included in the form of a BCK (brake composite (ie first and second class compartments) corridor)  - an example 2coach  rake would be SK, BCK

3) 3-6 coach rakes might represent intra or inter regional services (eg Cardiff to Weymouth). These would probably include some First Class accommodation, perhaps 10-20% of the total. Example rakes might include BSK, SK, SK, CK (Composite Corridor ie first and second class), or SK, SK, FK (first corridor), SK, BSK.

4) 5-8 coach rakes might be intra regional services or be part formations of longer trains that might join at a an intermediate station. Being longer services these might also include restaurant or buffet coaches eg restaurant mini buffet (RMB) or restaurant unclassified (RU). This is the most common length I run and example rakes might include:

BSK, SK, SK, FK, RMB, SK, BSK
BG, SK, SK, SK, SK, CK, SK, BSK
SK, SK, RMB, FK, CK, SK, BSK
SK, SK, SK, RU, FK, FK, SK, BSK

5) finally another vehicle you could add into your longer rakes is the non gangwayed General Utility Vehicle (or GUV); these would typically replace BGs.

Good luck!

Stanier coaches did work to the south east on excursions or weekend holiday trains.  Up until the early 1960's it was mandatory, unless authorised, for all trains to have a brake compartment at each end. There were many were many exceptions, especialy short trains.

If you are modelling the Southern the Oakwood books on Maunsell and Bulleid coaches give infromation on some formations.

Dodger

I have a photo in one of the Middleton Press books of an N pulling a holiday train made up of LNER stock into Gravesend West in BR days.

N's were ubiquitous of the South Eastern, as would be L1's - I don't know if you could convert an old Farrish 2p into one.

Bullied light Pacifics seemed to be hooked up to anything, but mainly did the harbour runs in Kent.  When it comes out - it think you could apply the same to the schools but most pictures I have, they are hauling either Bullied or Maunsell stock.

The Southern Railway and its constituents (particularly the LBSC and LSWR) ran their loco-hauled passenger stock in fixed sets. The SEMG has a page on this, with a link to a spreadsheet detailing most of the set formations, at:

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html

...a photo gallery of the various coach types and versions is on the SEMG site at:

http://www.semgonline.com/photoind.html#coaches

...and I have produced a 'potted version' specifically for the Farish Bulleid coaches in the Knowledgebank here:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19041.msg193310#msg193310

For the Southern Railway/Region, refer to Talisman's post above regarding the use of fixed formation sets.

On the LMS, things were more fluid, but a few general rules applied.

Brake coaches:

• At least one provided per train.
• If the train joined/divided at some point on route, at least one per section of the train.
• The inclusion of more than one in the train or section would be to provide required luggage capacity rather than additional Guards accommodation.
• The most common location would be at the end(s) of the train or section of the train but this was NOT mandatory. In some cases it was deliberately located in the middle for operational reasons including serving short platforms or sighting on curved platforms.
• The Guard would normally ride in the rearward brake vehicle of the main section of the train.

First Class Accommodation:

• Trains with no 1st Class accommodation were rare.
• The precise amount varied from train to train to meet the demand on the individual journey. It could be anything from a single composite vehicle up to 50% of the train.
• Normally as much of the first class accommodation as possible was marshalled together.
• Normally on main line/intercity trains the 1st class accommodation would be to the UP (in most circumstances London) end of the train.
• On local trains particularly non-corridor stock, the 1st Class was commonly in the middle of the train.

Catering vehicles:

• Most longer distance trains had some form of provision from a buffet car up to full restaurant facilities.
• Again this depended on expected demand on the individual journey.
• Most commonly catering vehicles were located between the classes. This was particularly the case when dedicated kitchen cars were used as they tried to avoid passengers having to pass through these if possible.
• It was not uncommon for restaurant cars to be added/removed from trains en-route so the service was only available for part of the journey.

Quote from: UPINSMOKE on January 26, 2015, 12:29:53 AM

And while I am asking what would have pulled SR coaches in the ealy 50s 60s in the south east of England that are available in N Gauge please, Steam or Diesel.

Any help with this would be much appreciated. Or any links as I am at a loss to find these.

For steam I'd suggest:-
Class 5MT 4-6-0 (current Farish)
Class 4MT 2-6-4T (current Farish)
Class 3MT 2-6-2T (current Farish)
N class 2-6-0 (awaited from Farish)

The SR weren't great proponents of diesels so you're really limited to the class 33 (current Farish + awaiting new version from Dapol)
The class 73 electro-diesels were introduced in 1962 so could be used (current Dapol)

Ex LMS stock could appear on the "Sunny South Express" from the midlands via Reading>Redhill, not sure if that was operated in the same way as inter regional services from Bournemouth to York & Birkenhead where Southern stock would run northwards Monday, Wednesday and Friday and GWR, LNER or LMS stock came south, returning to their own region on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

For Southern set formations the SEMG pages linked in a previous post are the best source, the Southern Region also marshalled BR Mk1s in fixed sets.

For locos, the Farish N class mogul and Dapol Schools will be correct - if they ever arrive! The Union Mills T9 is also valid, a number were transferred from the Ex LSWR lines and would be seen particularly during the summer months. A few M7s also appeared on branches (Dapol), Bulleid pacifics worked boat trains and other services.

The suggestion above re converting a Farish 4P to either a D/D1, E/E1 or L/L1  is good, N15 and S15 kits need a bit of work for Eastern section workings, both kits represent the Urie ex LSWR versions so need the cab roof hacking to the composite loading gauge and the tenders replaced with 6 wheeled Ashford pattern.  Note the difference in cab roof and tenders

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/n15class_2.html

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/s15class_1.html

Main reason for 6 wheel tenders was the shortness of Eastern section turntables.

After the Kent coast electrification you could use the Dapol class 73 electrodiesel, shunters 04 and 08,  SEMG again provide a listing of all motive power

http://www.semgonline.com/photoind.html#dedhl

For BR steam see Newport Nobby's post

Quote from: Chetcombe on January 26, 2015, 03:54:34 AM

Quote from: UPINSMOKE on January 26, 2015, 12:29:53 AM

I hope to run rakes of between 2 and 7 coaches I don't have room for anymore. I also would like to know if any LMS coaches ever run in the south east as I have 5 of these, bit of an impulse buy

I struggled horribly to find example rakes of Coaches, but after a pretty exhaustive trawl of the inter web came up with some rules of thumb. Can't help you with the LMR or Southern questions but here are some general answers for 2-5 coach trains. I will refer to currently available Farish Mk 1 stock to keep things simple.

1) All loco hauled trains need a brake (or guard) section. At a minimum this would mean a brake section in a coach at one end of the train and for a longer train maybe a brake coach at both ends. Examples of a brake include brake second corridor (BSK), brake composite corridor (BCK) or a full brake (BG).

2) 2-4 coach rakes would typically be used for local services and would usually be second class only. So a typical 3 coach formation might be second corridor (SK), SK, BSK. A 4 coach formation could be SK, SK, SK, BSK, or BSK, SK, SK, BSK. In later years second open coaches (SO) might replace the SK's. Occasionally first class accommodation might be included in the form of a BCK (brake composite (ie first and second class compartments) corridor)  - an example 2coach  rake would be SK, BCK

3) 3-6 coach rakes might represent intra or inter regional services (eg Cardiff to Weymouth). These would probably include some First Class accommodation, perhaps 10-20% of the total. Example rakes might include BSK, SK, SK, CK (Composite Corridor ie first and second class), or SK, SK, FK (first corridor), SK, BSK.

4) 5-8 coach rakes might be intra regional services or be part formations of longer trains that might join at a an intermediate station. Being longer services these might also include restaurant or buffet coaches eg restaurant mini buffet (RMB) or restaurant unclassified (RU). This is the most common length I run and example rakes might include:

BSK, SK, SK, FK, RMB, SK, BSK
BG, SK, SK, SK, SK, CK, SK, BSK
SK, SK, RMB, FK, CK, SK, BSK
SK, SK, SK, RU, FK, FK, SK, BSK

5) finally another vehicle you could add into your longer rakes is the non gangwayed General Utility Vehicle (or GUV); these would typically replace BGs.

Good luck!

Thank you for the information. When I first read this it was like someone telling me the rules to cricket (You know the old joke)  After reading it a few times it all started to sink in and was not as difficult to understand. Again thank you for you time in writing this for me. I hope it will be as useful to others as it is for me.

QuoteThe Southern Railway and its constituents (particularly the LBSC and LSWR) ran their loco-hauled passenger stock in fixed sets. The SEMG has a page on this, with a link to a spreadsheet detailing most of the set formations, at:

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html

...a photo gallery of the various coach types and versions is on the SEMG site at:

http://www.semgonline.com/photoind.html#coaches

...and I have produced a 'potted version' specifically for the Farish Bulleid coaches in the Knowledgebank here:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19041.msg193310#msg193310

Again thank you for the links another useful reading for me, and I hope others.

QuoteFor the Southern Railway/Region, refer to Talisman's post above regarding the use of fixed formation sets.

On the LMS, things were more fluid, but a few general rules applied.

Brake coaches:
At least one provided per train.
If the train joined/divided at some point on route, at least one per section of the train.
The inclusion of more than one in the train or section would be to provide required luggage capacity rather than additional Guards accommodation.
The most common location would be at the end(s) of the train or section of the train but this was NOT mandatory. In some cases it was deliberately located in the middle for operational reasons including serving short platforms or sighting on curved platforms.
The Guard would normally ride in the rearward brake vehicle of the main section of the train.

First Class Accommodation:
Trains with no 1st Class accommodation were rare.
The precise amount varied from train to train to meet the demand on the individual journey. It could be anything from a single composite vehicle up to 50% of the train.
Normally as much of the first class accommodation as possible was marshalled together.
Normally on main line/intercity trains the 1st class accommodation would be to the UP (in most circumstances London) end of the train.
On local trains particularly non-corridor stock, the 1st Class was commonly in the middle of the train.

Catering vehicles:
Most longer distance trains had some form of provision from a buffet car up to full restaurant facilities.
Again this depended on expected demand on the individual journey.
Most commonly catering vehicles were located between the classes. This was particularly the case when dedicated kitchen cars were used as they tried to avoid passengers having to pass through these if possible.
It was not uncommon for restaurant cars to be added/removed from trains en-route so the service was only available for part of the journey.

Once again I have to say thank you I am so pleased I joined this forum with the wealth of knowledge you all have, and the willingness to help others.

QuoteThe SR weren't great proponents of diesels so you're really limited to the class 33 (current Farish + awaiting new version from Dapol)
The class 73 electro-diesels were introduced in 1962 so could be used (current Dapol)

Thank you for the list of relevant Loco's. And as for the class 73 I have just ordered 2 of them from Gaugemaster Dapol DAGM234 in Southern Region Livery a limited edition of 150.

Once again I would like to thank you all for your help.

QuoteThe suggestion above re converting a Farish 4P to either a D/D1, E/E1 or L/L1  is good, N15 and S15 kits need a bit of work for Eastern section workings, both kits represent the Urie ex LSWR versions so need the cab roof hacking to the composite loading gauge and the tenders replaced with 6 wheeled Ashford pattern.  Note the difference in cab roof and tenders

I am sorry to say that modifying loco's is not for me, I have enough trouble seeing to build building kits to even attempt taking engines apart etc . But thank you for you input anyway.

Graham Hughes used to make a L1 body kit to fit the Farish Compound but I believe it is not available anymore.

The only cross country train that used the Reading-Redhill route Mondays to Fridays in the 50's and 60's was the South Coast to Birkenhead service and from memory both sets were Southern stock.

Dodger

QuoteThe only cross country train that used the Reading-Redhill route Mondays to Fridays in the 50's and 60's was the South Coast to Birkenhead service and from memory both sets were Southern stock.

I beg to differ, I've just checked in Kevin Robertson's Southern Miscellany and there is a 1950s photo of the Birkenhead > Margate service with GWR stock hauled by a mogul, probably a U class.

With regards Stanier (LMS) coaches, as you're talking formations, another noteworthy point is that entirely first class coaches were very rare beasts indeed. For example, the Corridor Brake First that Farish produce extended to just 9(!) vehicles built versus more than 400 Corridor Brake Thirds as made by Farish. The Corridor First doesn't fare much better, just 54 of them were built and tended to remain in frontline main line service rather than excursion traffic. LMS practice preferred the use of composite coaches to provide first class accomodation, and sadly the only RTR LMS composite is another very rare coach. The vestibule (open) composite that Farish make is a coach of which a grand total of 28 were built and were mostly used as dining cars, coupled to a 68ft 12 wheel restaurant unclassified or restaurant third. There are no restaurant/kitchen cars to form a train of importance enough to justify an all first coach, and there are no composites suitable for an everyday train because Farish only tooled a 57ft chassis where the compos are 60ft long. 3 feet may not sound like much, but when you place them side by side it is very noticeable...Airfix knew to tool two chassis for LMS coaches way back in 1978!

Unfortunately for anyone who models LMS passenger trains, 'Rule 1' is the only way to run them as it is next to impossible to form a prototypical train unless you introduce BR Mk1 composites to the rake, which pins you down to a 1952-68 timeframe. That or you kit build the composites, and from experience, matching the Farish paint finish and level of detail isn't all that easy (which is why I've stuck to running all third class trains and building non corridor LMS coaches in plain crimson livery )

You could use the currently available Fairburn tank if you're modelling the SR - great little model!

Quote from: Zunnan on January 26, 2015, 06:52:16 PM
Unfortunately for anyone who models LMS passenger trains, 'Rule 1' is the only way to run them as it is next to impossible to form a prototypical train unless you introduce BR Mk1 composites to the rake

Agreed!! I've been saying since the Staniers were introduced that they need to do at least the 60ft underframe and preferably the 64ft at well... the 60ft 4+3 compartment composite being the most common type and featuring in almost every train.
Mike Howarth did do the comp in his kits, but then fell into the same trap by doing a brake third on his 60ft underframe when it should have been a 57ft!!