OK, bear with me please for the potential numpty question....

When a diesel loco hauls a passenger train into a terminus station (with no run around), whats the deal for getting those coaches back out?

Does the said loco now push them back out (seems strange to me) or does said loco uncouple then another loco couple up at the head & pull the carriages out.....?

I'm trying to plan a terminus station & just wondered the protocol?

Dave

My understanding is that there was normally a set of "release points" so the loco could roll forward and then run-round.

Not as common or necessary today with multiple units, however the "Night Riveara" sleeper which is hauled by a Class 57 does not reverse out of London Paddington and there are no run-round points. This train is one of the last in the UK to use another loco (an 08) to shunt the coaches out of the station.

I think the choice is yours, but it would be prototypical to use either a run-round loop or an 03 / 08 or similar.

Skyline2uk

Dependent on location, both can be prototypically correct.
On the Southern Region, Class 33's could often be seen propelling multiple unit stock.
I think, in general, uncoupling and having another loco pull the stock out was more widespread

Not always - at big termini, another loco, or maybe a shunting engine if the stock was to be taken for cleaning, would couple up, and the original loco would follow closely behind the departing train, and go to shed.

As I understand it this was under the same signal as the train!

I have seen this happen at Euston, though with electric locos.

Cheers  Jon   

Thanks for the swift replies:)

I'm aiming to model early 80's BR Midlands(ish) region. So, DMU's are an option but I wouldn't want to use them exclusively.

Adding a run around adds a lot of length...hence my question...but I guess is the more practical option.

I saw the issue on the fab Penzance layout station, but didnt really want to crash he's layout thread with my question....

As Jon says the trapped loco could follow the departing train out.  I also remember this well with electrics, at Manchester Piccadilly in my case. 

The loco would have to follow the train immediately and if it couldn't do so would have to remain on the stops, otherwise it might still be gently ambling down the platform as the next train came in - embarrassing and potentially dangerous.  Also the train would have to stop at the platform starter signal and wait for its own route to be set, as even if it was following the train down the line once beyond the platform there would need to be only one train between each set of signals. 

This practice was banned sometime around 1990 when the spread of multiple units and push-pull meant it was no longer regularly used, and occasional use would probably have been seen as risky because drivers wouldn't be familiar with it. 

Not an easy thing to model, unless you have DCC! 

At other stations the arriving loco would push the train back.  Probably all depends on things like whether trains went to sidings between workings, how far away the sidings were and how good the driver's view would be.  If the sidings were all loops then probably a pilot engine would work the empties and use the exit at the far end of the loops to avoid itself becoming trapped. 

A very enjoyable evening at Paddington in about 1991, saw a large number of locomotive movements: at that time NSE liveried class 47s on the Thames Valley services.

The train would come in, shortly followed by a light engine, which would couple up to the end. When the train departed, the original train engine was released, before dropping onto the rear of the next arrival in an adjacent platform. And so it continued, with I guess some interchanging of engines between diagrams.

I believe Waterloo did a similar type of exercise, albeit with a much reduced volume of traffic. If there were ECS movements, then the original train engine stayed coupled and was dragged back to Clapham sidings.

In some locations there would be a fairly short period between a train arriving  and another loco arriving to take the coaches out on another service, the original loco would ften act as banker to get the new departure away smartly, especially if the location had a gradient soon after the start,the "banker" would.

At Waterloo in steam days a tank loco (often an M7) would bring the ECS in from the carriage sidings and remain coupled to the train (supplying carriage heating in winter) until just before departure then uncouple and bank the train out from the platform  to the starter, then move to a siding and wait for a train to arrive and take the newly arrived stock to the carriage sidings releasing the train loco to move to shed. I would imagine something similar would still happen with diesel or electric loco hauled trains, substituting the M7 by an 08.

At Bournemouth West again steam days the train loco would push the stock back up to the carriage sidings, then either turn on the triangle or proceed to shed at Bournemouth Central, ECS for a new departure was often run downhill by gravity from the sidings, one day there was a non corridi=or coach in the middle of the train the shunter was unable to get to the brake van with this result

http://www.semgonline.com/misc/bomow-acc.html

Normal evening practice now at Paddington with the down Riviera is for a 57 to drag the stock in with the train loco on the rear. Then the trapped loco is uncoupled, and the train departs as normal. The light engine then returns to the Oak.

In the morning the up Riviera arrives, and the light 57 arrives on the rear. It couples up, the train loco is shut down, and when given the road, the whole formation departs for the Oak dragging the dead 57 on the rear.

Of course, as mentioned above, if no light 57 is available, one of the two 08s will deputise for the drags.

On one occasion, 57604 dragged the evening sleeper in, uncoupled, and was shut down. Then after the sleeper departed, 604 wouldn't start, and was declared a failure. No 08 was available, so a pair of back to back HST power cars were dispatched to drag the errant body snatcher back to the Oak. That was some sight.

Cheers, Timmo

FWIW:

As has been already stated, there are two options:

1.  Either a 'headshunt' (the term will vary from country to country) which is 'just' long enough for a single loco to run forwards, clear the relevant set of points and 'fouling point' with the train it has just brought-in, and then reverse around  and come back onto its train  from the other end.

2. After arrival at the terminus. the 'lead' ('head-end') locomotive uncouples, but remains stationary while another loco comes up behind the train and couples onto it.  After completing the required air-brake tests, the train then departs (the carriages / wagons  now being in 'reverse' if you will), with the now-former 'head-end' locomotive waiting until the appropriate signal gives it authority to move-out to 'wherever' it may be required (loco depot, another car set or...).

Casual observation indicates that these actions seem to be common practice internationally.

BTW, and FWIW: In situation 2, it HAS been known, that for various reasons,  the original train loco can  'forget' to uncouple from its train and then be dragged 'kicking and screaming' when the 'new' locomotive at the other end takes the train away.

Let's just say that the situation can have 'interesting' 'consequences' as a result.

Hope this helps. 

There are a number of different scenarios based on different locations. I'll be happy to give a few examples here. Lets start off with the above mentioned Manchester Piccadilly. Trains would arrive and the locomotive would be uncoupled. Another locomotive would couple to the other end and the train would eventually depart for it's destination. The original locomotive would follow the departing train to the signal at the end of the platform and wait for it's own route and then either 1) wait outside the station to attach to the head of another train or 2) go light engine to somewhere else usually Longsight.

Platform 5 & 6 at Manchester had a set of points connecting the 2 platforms near the stop blocks allowing the arriving loco to release itself. It would arrive in platform 5 and stop short. Uncouple and pull ahead to the stop blocks clearing the points. The points would be set and the loco would run around it's train to go back out (normally) with the same stock. 2 examples of this were the Harwich - Manchester boat train and the Swansea - Manchester in the mid 80's.

Most terminus stations in London, Paddington, Kings Cross, Euston, Liverpool St etc had the loco wait at the blocks and another would couple to the head of the train. When the train departed the loco would follow. If the loco was unable to follow immediately, the driver would have to obtain permission to proceed to the signal at the end of the platform. The same applied at Manchester too.

Norwich..... For many years Norwich had a class 03 with a match truck that would shunt the stock out of the station to release the loco and then the loco would work the next service back to London. Yarmouth services were just re-engined and the original loco would follow the train out to the signal as previously mentioned.

Glasgow Queen St.....  For many years the locomotive that brought the train into the station would be uncoupled at the stop blocks. Another loco would then be coupled to the other end to take the train out of the staion for it's next departure. Either a service train to Inverness/Aberdeen/Dundee/West Highland Line or ECS to Cowlairs etc.  Upon departure it was normal for the loco on the stop blocks to bank the train out of the station up the hill to cowlairs and drop away from the train near the top of the hill. I believe this practice was stopped in the mid-late 80's.

So, as you can see there are many different was of operating at terminus stations across the network.

Hope this helps.

Jamie   

Quote from: fordpop on December 21, 2013, 10:15:53 PM
OK, bear with me please for the potential numpty question....

When a diesel loco hauls a passenger train into a terminus station (with no run around), whats the deal for getting those coaches back out?

Does the said loco now push them back out (seems strange to me) or does said loco uncouple then another loco couple up at the head & pull the carriages out.....?

I'm trying to plan a terminus station & just wondered the protocol?

Dave

Hi

In the late 70s at Manchester a second loco would couple up to the coaches and the train would leave for its destination with the original loco following the departing train slowly up the platform.

Cheers

Paul

Thanks for all the replies & info guys, very interesting:)

Dave

In steam days (at least) if there was a triangle near the terminus, like at Bradford Exchange (Great Northern side) or New Holland, the whole train including the incoming engine could be reversed out of the station, around the triangle and back into the station again - pointing the right way for the departure.

There's how they used to do it at Penzance

[smg id=8953 type=av align=center caption="Class 08 08644   50034 shunting Penzance Station 4th May 1984"]

These days the 57's push back the sleeper to Long Rock for servicing.
[smg id=8956 type=av align=center caption="FGW Night Riviera Departing Penzance Station 57604 17/12/11"]