Might be worth contacting BH Enterprises and seeing if they sell the coal rail etch from their whitemetal fowler tender kit separately.

Or just buy the complete kits and replace your tenders (assuming they are the Farish ones, they are way overscale - stretched to fit the standard Farish tender underframe). Relatively expensive, but really transforms the locos.

Cheers,
Alan

Thanks Alan. Contacting BH Enterprises for possible separate sales seem like being the only way. I haven't done any kit building yet so constructing new tenders is a bit out of my league.

Quote from: Pete33 on November 22, 2013, 08:23:19 PM
Thanks Alan. Contacting BH Enterprises for possible separate sales seem like being the only way. I haven't done any kit building yet so constructing new tenders is a bit out of my league.

The white metal tenders are not too hard to build on the whole.

If you give me dimensions I can quote for coal rails. I've done them for various (mostly 2fs) folks and providing you are not in a hurry usually work out cheap as they slot nicely into awkward to fill gaps in etch sheets.

You can also make them out of wire or fine plastic strip, both of which actually can produce an even better look, but does take a bit of patience.


Alan

Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 22, 2013, 10:35:27 PM
The white metal tenders are not too hard to build on the whole.

If you give me dimensions I can quote for coal rails. I've done them for various (mostly 2fs) folks and providing you are not in a hurry usually work out cheap as they slot nicely into awkward to fill gaps in etch sheets.

You can also make them out of wire or fine plastic strip, both of which actually can produce an even better look, but does take a bit of patience.

Thanks for the kind offer, Alan.

I finally managed to unpack all of my books today. That gave me the chance to look up coal rails on 2Ps and 4Fs (LMS/S&D 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s respectively). Surprisingly, they weren't particularly in evidence in many photos, and it was the 4Fs that had them predominantly, not the 2Ps. That means just one loco needs them for the moment, and that's a Graham Farish Fowler 0-6-0 tender.

If I'm right then the Farish tender on a Fowler is too long, which means that the entire tender should be replaced. If that's right then it's a job best left until I've gained a little more experience, but if the tender is okay, then perhaps fitting in just one set of rails isn't worth your time. What do you think?

Given the new 4F I think I'd be considering the new model ! The 2P is trickier but then if you've got a Farish 2P it's not a very accurate model anyway so I'm sure some overlong coal rails won't hurt.

The Union Mills 2P is a much better beastie

Let me know the sizes and if there is a thin spot to hide them I'll let you know. Its trivial to do and very long thin spaces are quite common on sheet layout. If it don't fit then tough  but nowt ventured nowt gained

Alan

Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 24, 2013, 01:07:47 AM
Given the new 4F I think I'd be considering the new model ! The 2P is trickier but then if you've got a Farish 2P it's not a very accurate model anyway so I'm sure some overlong coal rails won't hurt.

The 4F is the new model. I was extremely lucky to pick it up at a bargain £32 and all it needs is renumbering and re-lettering.

During a bit of research I found photos of several 4Fs with coal rails in LMS service, with them being fitted from the late 1920s onwards. It's almost impossible to pin down when specific locos had them fitted, but there's a photo of BR 44388 at Bath Green Park with them (ex-S&D No 59), so that's my justification for adding them to this chap:



The coal area is 25mm long by 15mm wide.

The S&D 2P is much harder to pin down when it comes to using coal rails, but I did find some LMS examples. As I'm focussing on 1930, just after the LMS took over locomotive operations on the S&D and the last Prussian Blue locos were waiting to be repainted, I think I can sneak this one in.

This is the Graham Farish 2P:



The coal area on this one is also is 25mm long by 15mm wide, because they appear to be exactly the same model of tender. The 4F tender is a simple moulded shell with nothing inside (it came off when I was unpacking the loco). The 2P tender has something inside as there's a wire connecting to the loco body. Either way, taking out the moulded coal to replace it with some 'real' coal might be tricky.

Anyway, I appreciate the offer. December is loco upgrade time, as I'll be able to get a host of other parts, but don't worry if you can't squeeze these onto a sheet any time soon. It's the thought that counts.

Sorry, Pete, but your 4F is not the new model as that is still in the pipeline from Farish.
The good news is the tender is to be fitted with coal rails

I have a early 4F which I have had chipped and a 4P which looks the same as your 2P but mine is LMS crimson number 1111. They are both the same dimensions as yours so Alan if it makes it more worth your while make two sets for me too and I will fit them to mine too. Just let me know if ok and how much you want for the trouble.
I must add I have never done any scratch buliding yet so this would be a newy for me. I did see a couple of 4F's at the wigan show with coal rails on the tenders and they did look good ,I think they were kit built tenders perhaps.

Give me the dimensions and I'll see - it usually works out about a pound a set if they can be stuffed into corners that are otherwise not of much use.

HI Alan, If you can make them the same size has Pete33's  ie 25mm x 15mm that will be great. No rush when you can fit them in, I am ballasting at the present time and for some foreseeable time.....

Quote from: newportnobby on November 24, 2013, 10:04:59 PM
Sorry, Pete, but your 4F is not the new model as that is still in the pipeline from Farish.
The good news is the tender is to be fitted with coal rails

Ah, you mean the new new model! 

My one has blackened wheels (although they're still solid and the pick-up strip is still very visible behind them), so I thought it was an upgrade of the original. Perhaps calling it 'new' was a little misleading. Either way, it could do with a new tender one day in the future, but that's way off, so I'll content myself with upgrading what I have for now.

Quote from: lil chris on November 24, 2013, 10:17:13 PM
I must add I have never done any scratch building yet so this would be a newy for me. I did see a couple of 4F's at the wigan show with coal rails on the tenders and they did look good ,I think they were kit built tenders perhaps.

It's a newey for me too, Chris, but I'm determined to get stuck in. Coal rails on a 4F really do look lovely but they were far from universal, so it might be worth checking for photos of 'your' loco to see if it ever had them attached.

Peter

The difference internally is that your earlier loco probably has tender pickups while the BachFarr and later Poole models don't - which is why they don't run so well. IMHO it's a worthwhile addition to fit them (kits of bits from BR Lines).

Will see what I can fit on.

The coal btw isn't too hard to remove. Use extreme violence. Drill a rectamgle of holes through the coal load, file them into one another, remove the centre and then use a big woodworking file to remove most of the rest. Tidy the edges with something less brutal and off you go.

Before doing that though note that you can get a fair improvement by simply glueing a dusting of real coal over the fake.

Apart from that a small (CT or Zimo) DCC decoder goes in the tender along with a cube speaker and all is good. Special bonus for drilling out the body a bit and fitting a smoke generator !

Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 25, 2013, 01:42:13 PM
The difference internally is that your earlier loco probably has tender pickups while the BachFarr and later Poole models don't - which is why they don't run so well. IMHO it's a worthwhile addition to fit them (kits of bits from BR Lines).

I think the 4F was a late enough model that none of them ever had tender pickups. Certainly, I bought one new 1997 and it had none.

It ever showed any sign of really needing them either!

Cheers,
Alan

My 4F does not have pickups in the tender but it runs superb, and even better since I had it chipped,slow running is now excellant. I am thinking of eventually re-numbering it and weathering it too, a lot of 4f's and even earlier 3f's run on the line I am modeling.

Quote from: Dr Al on November 25, 2013, 03:26:11 PM

Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 25, 2013, 01:42:13 PM
The difference internally is that your earlier loco probably has tender pickups while the BachFarr and later Poole models don't - which is why they don't run so well. IMHO it's a worthwhile addition to fit them (kits of bits from BR Lines).

I think the 4F was a late enough model that none of them ever had tender pickups. Certainly, I bought one new 1997 and it had none.

It ever showed any sign of really needing them either!

Cheers,
Alan

The "earlier loco" is the 2P which definitely did come with tender pickups.

It seems to be depend a lot on the exact loco how well it runs without but I do prefer to have tender pickups personally.