Much is being made of the vaccine heading first towards the elderly, vulnerable and essential workers but I just hope in phase 3 testing (numbers in thousands as opposed to phase 2 hundreds) they test it on people already taking essential meds to see if there are adverse reactions. I'm on half a dozen prescription drugs per day and, believe me, a huge amount of over the counter medicine is just not available to me.
As far as I know this has not been considered in the headlong dash to get a vaccine out there :hmmm:
I think a scientist recently said that vaccines don't generally interact with medical drugs.
As regards 'headlong rush', there was an interesting item on Radio 4 PM just now: vaccine scientist in Cambridge said that in fact a lot of the time needed for vacccine development hitherto is spent on applying for funds, getting approval, getting enough trial subjects, then repeating that process. Those are all not issues this time: the funding is unlimited, regulators are fast-tracking approvals, and people are only too willing to sign up.
think I'll hold off on this till blondie gets it, and survives.
after the way this has been handled, wouldn't trust him and his lot to mow the lawn.
'we follow the scientific advice' becomes 'when it suits us'.
Here's what's known so far about possible side-effects from taking the Pfizer vaccine:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54986208 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54986208)
I think if you're worried about taking a covid vaccine, if and when it arrives, you should consult your GP. They'd be in a better position to properly advise you. Fortunately in the UK it's not the government that decides on drug safety, it's the MHRA which is independent.
I think we'd probably be better off if the people who can't be bothered to sanitise etc actually were made to.
went into Tescos this afternoon, needed to resupply on internal alchohol sanitiser, :beers: and while I was spraying my trolley handle and adding hand sanitiser to my hands, over ten ?adults? went straight into the store without any attempt to do so.
they then presumeably spread their germs around the store picking up and putting back items.
and don't even start me on NHS and care workers who wander the aisles in their work clothes.
oh for the days when they didn't wear their uniforms all the time, but changed when they came off the wards, or before they went onto them.
where did I put that internal sanitiser :beers:
No problem, it won't get to you in time anyway. It only lasts a few days once out of -50 storage and that time will all be taken up in the many lorry parks built for Brexit queues.
Its an RNA messenger so a chopped up piece of the virus and it is flushed from your body in three days, so no medicines or medical concoctions involved (not even eggs).
The only reaction anyone should get is the reaction the body would give if it saw the real thing, without the damaging effect. So expect tiredness, headache and fever.
QuoteI think we'd probably be better off if the people who can't be bothered to sanitise etc actually were made to.
bring it on im waiting for your attempts.My view is sanitising and washing your hands every time you get a speck of dust on them is making your natural immune system lazy.
I remember reading somewhere that some scientists had said that modern homes are TOO CLEAN, hence you don't come into contact with germs, and create natural dfences.
but re
mask - wash - space
it is part of the supposed defence against covid, but just more and more people can't be bothered, like the pratts who think it's ok to have a sixty person party in a small space.
unfortunately, it's probably not them who are going to get ill and die.
perhaps shops / supermarkets etc should man up, forget for once profits, and say
'no sanitisation / spacing / mask etc - no entry'
like that is likely to happen. profits rule for these people.
I did wonder about one of the adverts on TV, supposedly a doctor, 'washing my hands after every patient really is causing them problems' ...
so I take it that normally they don't bother ?
no wonder so many people come out of hospitals with more wrong with them than when they went in !
:censored:
I hope there'll be close monitoring of side effects once the vaccines become available.
It's alright undertaking phase 3 clinical trials which prove the efficacy and safety of those vaccines, but the real test is when the whole population gets those jabs.
So far, results are encouraging.
However the vaccines approved so far require two injections, spaced a few weeks apart, to achieve full immunity.
The winner in the vaccine race will be one that delivers efficacy, safety and immunity in one dose.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 19, 2020, 06:56:22 PM
So expect tiredness, headache and fever.
Just a normal day in the life of an NGF Moderator, then :D
you know you wouldn't be without it :hmmm:
Quoteperhaps shops / supermarkets etc should man up, forget for once profits, and say
'no sanitisation / spacing / mask etc - no entry'
how do you suggest identifying those who've refused the vaccine? maybe a tattoo or a badge sewn to clothing?
Quote from: themadhippy on November 19, 2020, 10:56:50 PM
Quoteperhaps shops / supermarkets etc should man up, forget for once profits, and say
'no sanitisation / spacing / mask etc - no entry'
how do you suggest identifying those who've refused the vaccine? maybe a tattoo or a badge sewn to clothing?
Something we should have had years ago, Electronic National Identity Cards
QuoteElectronic National Identity Cards
why not just microchip everybody,once your a burden to society hit the delete button.
Quote from: themadhippy on November 19, 2020, 11:07:53 PM
QuoteElectronic National Identity Cards
why not just microchip everybody,once your a burden to society hit the delete button.
Only for politicians :D
As I understand it, there's currently no government plan to award medals to those who brave the needle but white feathers may be delivered to any conchies found mingling amongst the anti-vaccine brigade.
There's too many people bleating on about their 'rights', whilst nobody has the conscience to think about their 'responsibilities'.
Quotewhite feathers may be issued to those who side with the anti-vaccine brigade.
excellent i could use a new indian headdress
I'm sure you won't be receiving enough feathers to successfully embellish a headdress. That's unless "The Community" decides you're shying away from your national duty. In which case you may be tarred and feathered. Or possibly static grassed.
Quote from: class37025 on November 19, 2020, 06:48:21 PM
...................and don't even start me on NHS and care workers who wander the aisles in their work clothes.
oh for the days when they didn't wear their uniforms all the time, but changed when they came off the wards, or before they went onto them.
My wife is an NHS nurse and nothing winds her up more (apart from me of course) than seeing fellow nurses wandering around a supermarket in their uniform.
From the RCN "The particular clause states that shopping or non-work activities should be avoided whilst in uniform/workwear in the community. If this is unavoidable due to shopping restrictions in the pandemic, cover the uniform as much as possible with a coat."
Simple isn't it?
QuoteSimple isn't it?
or maybe if they allowed staff 15 minutes paid time before and after each shift to get changed or provide adequate ppe instead of re badged bin liners
Maybe if the general public did as they have been asked they wouldn't need as much PPE. Sorry, that shouldn't read maybe, feel free to strike that word out and the sentence would still be correct.
Quote from: themadhippy on November 19, 2020, 10:56:50 PM
Quoteperhaps shops / supermarkets etc should man up, forget for once profits, and say
'no sanitisation / spacing / mask etc - no entry'
how do you suggest identifying those who've refused the vaccine? maybe a tattoo or a badge sewn to clothing?
Has been tried before but was not very effective.
I would suggest summary execution at time of refusal. No need to keep records that way. :P
Like the Australian army in Afghanistan, but we'll not go there. He said, self-moderating. :no:
Quote from: emjaybee on November 19, 2020, 11:35:24 PM
There's too many people bleating on about their 'rights', whilst nobody has the conscience to think about their 'responsibilities'.
hear hear, when did we change from being all about our responsibility to each other to all about our own rights.
I always remember our teachers at school saying something about treat other people how you would like them to treat you.
"off my box now" I'll get back my model railway.
Quote from: themadhippy on November 19, 2020, 10:56:50 PM
Quoteperhaps shops / supermarkets etc should man up, forget for once profits, and say
'no sanitisation / spacing / mask etc - no entry'
how do you suggest identifying those who've refused the vaccine? maybe a tattoo or a badge sewn to clothing?
A handbell - ding, ding, ding, unclean :D
Hey, Santa Claus just walked past me in the shopping centre ringing his bell ;D
Quote from: Bealman on November 20, 2020, 06:36:26 AM
Hey, Santa Claus just walked past me in the shopping centre ringing his bell ;D
I wonder for whom the bell tolls?
I hear one potential vaccine delivery system being considered is the sugar lump method. It's hoped it'll sweeten the deal for those who are scared of needles. Leading diabetics have expressed their concern but the drug manufacturers have issued a statement advising them to shut their cake holes.
Quote from: Ferkeltaxe on November 20, 2020, 08:14:13 AM
I hear one potential vaccine delivery system being considered is the sugar lump method.
I'm of an age whereby the polio vaccine was so issued :-[
Let's try to stay with the vaccine subject and not with all the other usual stuff that goes with Covid please. No one will ever agree on 'crime and punishment' :no:
This is a brave topic. One thing that has surprised me in recent years are the strong views people hold about vaccination. In the USA, anti vaccine sentiment is almost a religion with views ranging from drug companies making unnecessary profits to some form of new World order plot to control the masses.
Personally, I am not expressing an opinion one way or the other but I do believe medical decisions are private and a matter for the individual.
Kind regards
Paddy
I think replies #1 and #7 have allayed some of my fears, and guess if they test thousands of people (and having seen some have been in their 70s) I guess it's pretty hard to find elderly volunteers who aren't on some sort of medication. Of course I will take note of anything my GP says when the time comes.
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 20, 2020, 11:42:05 AM
Of course I will take note of anything my GP says when the time comes.
Even if he tells you to lay off the booze :)
Quote from: joe cassidy on November 20, 2020, 11:50:19 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 20, 2020, 11:42:05 AM
Of course I will take note of anything my GP says when the time comes.
Even if he tells you to lay off the booze :)
Very rarely drink, Joe, as it makes my heart race. Not good when you have an internal defibrillator! :no:
@Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) do you have a seasonal flu vaccine? The science/medicine behind the Covid vaccines is little different.
Vaccines work by triggering a controlled immune response from the natural defences the body has. They don't interact with the bodies chemistry like many drugs for treating heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer etc.
Where you might have a problem is if they role out some of the other treatments being proposed - nasal sprays for example (or any anti-viral medication should you do catch it). That said, many/most of these are based on well established treatments where side effects and interactions with other drugs are already well known.
Personally I wouldn't worry about it, but if you are concerned then a chat with your GP when the time comes to get the vaccine should help.
Steven B.
Thanks, Steven.
Yeah - I have the flu jab each year with only very mild reactions, and am probably worrying unnecessarily. However, although I believe in the British ways of approving meds I just hope the same strictures are applied to any foreign ones
off topic, but had the flu jab this year for the first time, previously haven't bother though SWMBO has had it each year.
this year, she had a reaction to it, which laid her out for about a week, while I never even had the sore arm that we were warned about.
wonder if all that time spent in the SSA guarding **** ***** shhh may have in some way made me not only glow in the dark, but also healthier :hmmm: :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: class37025 on November 19, 2020, 06:48:21 PM
I think we'd probably be better off if the people who can't be bothered to sanitise etc actually were made to.
went into Tescos this afternoon, needed to resupply on internal alchohol sanitiser, :beers: and while I was spraying my trolley handle and adding hand sanitiser to my hands, over ten ?adults? went straight into the store without any attempt to do so.
they then presumeably spread their germs around the store picking up and putting back items.
and don't even start me on NHS and care workers who wander the aisles in their work clothes.
oh for the days when they didn't wear their uniforms all the time, but changed when they came off the wards, or before they went onto them.
where did I put that internal sanitiser :beers:
Our hospital trust is very hot on the uniform subject. There are security personnel on all the exits and any staff member trying to leave in a uniform would be questioned.
A lot of people found the changing before leaving a chore but it is all part of the daily process now and people as used to it.
I travel to work like a lycra clad lunatic on my bike so have been getting changed out of my work gear for years anyway. ;D
@Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) as said not a lot of medications react with vaccines and I am sure the appropriate product literature will appear when things are officially launched.
But any concerns your GP or local pharmacy workers such as myself are all on hand to answer any concerns in the community.
On a side note in all my years working in the NHS I have never seen so much speed and money thrown at something like this vaccine program so it is definatly been taken seriously. Usually takes about 2 months to get someone into a post with notices and CRB checks etc. These vaccine job posts went out last week and people are starting Monday :confused1:
Unfortunately with a lot of internal staff getting the internal upgrades to new positions we are now short of staff for other things :doh:
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 20, 2020, 12:18:55 PM
Thanks, Steven.
Yeah - I have the flu jab each year with only very mild reactions, and am probably worrying unnecessarily. However, although I believe in the British ways of approving meds I just hope the same strictures are applied to any foreign ones
I think Steven make a lot of sense, just as an FYI, so called 'foreign' approval methods could well be as good as or superior to UK ones. As much as I loved the NHS when I lived in the UK, after having moved back to Canada I find the UK health system positively medieval compared to here (which is also proper public not for profit healthcare like the NHS). And lets not forget that the US system is likely strict for purely financial reasons, they won't want to risk massive lawsuits if there are problems
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 20, 2020, 12:18:55 PM
Thanks, Steven.
Yeah - I have the flu jab each year with only very mild reactions, and am probably worrying unnecessarily. However, although I believe in the British ways of approving meds I just hope the same strictures are applied to any foreign ones
ANY meds used in the UK need to be authorised as safe to use by the UK authorities before use. That goes for medication developed in say Germany, American, Australia or anywhere else you can think off.
As gumbeast says, the approval methods in the medications "home" country could well be stricter than here in the UK.
Steven B.
My ex did/does work in a hospital and at the time (early 2000s) wearing uniform outside hospital grounds was a disciplinary offence
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 20, 2020, 11:53:35 AM
Very rarely drink, Joe, as it makes my heart race. Not good when you have an internal defibrillator! :no:
I hope that you've managed to stop fantasizing about Elizabeth Hurley Mick :no:
A lot of nurses during the pandemic have taken to just wearing scrubs and are stripping off and showring as they leave the wards.
Calm down Mick @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) !
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 20, 2020, 04:48:31 PM
A lot of nurses during the pandemic have taken to just wearing scrubs and are stripping off and showring as they leave the wards.
I think doing that may be a dismissable offence ;)
Quote from: joe cassidy on November 20, 2020, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 20, 2020, 11:53:35 AM
Very rarely drink, Joe, as it makes my heart race. Not good when you have an internal defibrillator! :no:
I hope that you've managed to stop fantasizing about Elizabeth Hurley Mick :no:
Never, Joe. At least I'd go out with a big smile on my face :)
A Pal sent me this this morning, worth a try
The Vaccine
We must get this message out to the Center for Disease Control and all labs!
Here's something we can all agree on.
1. The vaccine should be tested on politicians first.
2. If they survive, the vaccine is safe.
3. If they don't, the country is safe.
:)
From: https://thenewdaily.com.au/entertainment/people-entertainment/2020/11/20/the-ferguson-report-the-psychic-donald-trump-should-have-listened-to/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Saturday%20News%20-%2020201121
YOU CAN LEAD THEM TO HOLY WATER...
An ANU survey found people who are religious are more likely to resist being vaccinated against COVID-19.
A baffled bishop said, "I guess God Almighty creating a vaccine isn't miraculous enough."
Hi all,
So thought I would add my 2 pence :D but avoid the political side of things (easier said than done).
I find the whole anti vax thing really well backwards if I was honest, I work with a gent who is shielding again due to underlying illnesses but has said out right he will not get the vaccine jab if/as/when it becomes available. Now what makes this perplexing is his argument which is basically "I don't know what trash they are injecting me with", which baffles me as he has to take daily medication for his underlying illnesses which by his own admission he doesn't have a clue what is in them all he knows is "they have stopped me from dropping dead so they must be working", now am I the only one who can see the irony in his thought process ???
But then I have challenged people on farcebook who have openly said they would refuse a vaccine, the general reply varies from tin hat stuff (better watch out for those 5g tracking bats) to the whole it's not natural, which the whole it's not natural thing makes me giggle a bit as well medicine isn't natural, I have yet to see an episode of blue planet where a pod of whales conduct a triple heart bypass in the waters off Alaska, but should these it's not natural people suffer a heart attack I bet they won't be declining unnatural hospital treatment.....
Then there is the "I am not having it you can't force me it's against my human rights"
Well yes we all have our basic human rights, but what about everyone else's human rights? Personally seeing how horrific this virus can be, I think if there is a vaccine to aid in protecting us out there, why should the human rights of these individuals trump mine or my families? As far as I am concerned if you don't want the vaccine fine don't get it but accept the reality of your choices which would in effect mean becoming a modern day leper, as you would potentially be a walking talking biological weapon.
To give a more pictorial idea of that, if you don't want to get the vaccine because it infringes YOUR human right over everyone else's right to life you may as well get a fire arm conceal it on yourself and have a random timer set, then when the time goes off pull the gun out and start firing at anyone around you, it could be complete strangers, it could be your family you could be completely on your own! Who knows but choosing not to have a vaccine and then integrate with society is basically doing exactly this!
It's the people who, posting from their mobile device, think they'll be injected with some kind of tracking chip who crack me up.
That'll be me, then ;D
Quote from: railsquid on November 30, 2020, 05:10:11 AM
It's the people who, posting from their mobile device, think they'll be injected with some kind of tracking chip who crack me up.
Ahh now I have proof that the Bill Gates conspiricy theory is :poop:
Everyone knows after 3 months windows begins to slow down, by 6 months it freezes and after 12 months anything windows operated has crash at least twice!
So far none of that has happened so cant be anything to do with Bill Gates :laugh3:
The reason why people are against vaccines is they are too young to have experienced the horrors of deaths before vaccines. I was told the stories of people's families and what happened to them in the 1800s and 1900s.
My dad, born 1912, was the sole survivor into early teens of 5 children. They died from childhood illnesses which are not prevalent or a concern today; thanks to vaccines. Guy across the road had polio and was in an iron-lung, a school mate wore calipers on his legs, courtesy of polio. My cousin had scarlet fever which cooked her brain (late 1940s), she had to learn to walk and get some manual skills back, managed to learn to sign her name in mid 1960s. I remember some adults and kids suffering from tuberculosis.
As soon as vaccines were made available everyone had themselves and kids down to the doctors. Never had anyone talking about not being vaccinated. A few kids dying from complications was weighed against the many who died from the disease. I never experienced the horrors my parents and relatives spoke about.
When I hear anti-vaccine talk I get kind of angry; shouldn't really as it just another example that half the population has an IQ below average.
Biological weapon? Sounds more like mass hysteria than mass vaccination.
In any event, you don't need 100% coverage for a vaccine to be effective, so as long as there's not mass refusals, it's not really an issue.
That having been said, I seem to recall reports of recent (last year) outbreaks of measles because of the high number of refusals. I can't remember where, at the moment.
Thanks to all the scientists over my lifetime who have developed vaccines that have meant I have not had to suffer the horrors of polio, tetanus, measles, shingles, mumps, rubella and others including various strains of 'the flu', and further for developing all those 'unnatural' products such as sanitisers, disinfectants, and all manner of drugs and medicines that have allowed me and those I love to live full lives.
When the vaccine for Covid is finally available, I will immediately join the queue as I have one wish for Christmas: I would like to be around to see my family around the Christmas table on December 25th 2021.
My Dad's in his early eighties, has never had a winter flu-jab and is in two minds about any Covid vaccine. He's already been told by his doctor that due to his age he'll be at the front of the queue as and when a vaccine becomes available.
He's never had flu-jab, and is reluctant simply because a friend of his had an adverse reaction to one winter flu-jab and was unwell for about 6 months afterwards. Whether or not it was the flu-vaccine that caused the problems is unknown but it's enough to make him think twice.
Reading Acko22's comments about human rights has confirmed my belief that with human rights come human responsibilities.
Steven B.
I've never had a flu jab, either. However, I do listen to doctors orders.
Ten years ago, I felt like death warmed up. Turned out I had iron overload.
I've been dumping blood ever since, which keeps my Iron under control. Got two before Christmas, actually! :beers:
Hi Folks,
I have been giving the CV19 vaccine a lot of thought recently. My initial reaction was "I will wait" as all the science has been rushed and let's be frank, the scientists will not come out of this pandemic covered in glory.
Not that I am anti vaccination, both my daughters have had all their inoculations as like @NinOz (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2006) the threat from the diseases seemed far worse.
So, in the interests of of our country, I have decided to accept the vaccine if/when it is offered to me. This is very much a personal decision and I am in no way suggesting others should follow suit.
My thought process is that large swathes of mankind are in dire straits because of CV19 and I need to do my bit to move us past this disaster.
Kind regards
Paddy
The only really bad vaccine I can recall was the thalidomide one (and I could be wrong as to whether that was a vaccine).
I'm sorry, but to my mind if anyone refuses this vaccine then any life insurance policy should be voided. I've been chucking heart meds down my neck for 27 years now. Sure, if you read the literature that comes with each pack you'd be convinced you shouldn't take them but I have to assume the medics know what they're doing, in the same way you assume a bus/train/plane/taxi driver knows their game. The most I've had from flu jabs is either an aching arm for a couple of days or bloody shirt 'cos the practice nurse was rubbish.
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 30, 2020, 10:48:34 AM
The most I've had from flu jabs is either an aching arm for a couple of days or bloody shirt 'cos the practice nurse was rubbish.
That's cutbacks for you. We used to get a little round plaster put on the 'wound'. I didn't get one this year though and yes, I had a sore arm for about 5 days :'(
Thalidomide was an anti morning sickness tablet taken by pregnant mothers and was one of the reasons drug testing before approval is so strict today. I know I was born with fortunately a minor problem with my right thumb, now no longer a problem, due to it. A lot of people were not so lucky.
I agree that you cannot force people to take Vaccines, but you can also not force the rest of us to pay for their medical treatment if they refuse to take it. This door swings both ways.
I also believe that children reaching the age of 18 should be notified of the vaccines their parents have refused to let them have and give them the option of taking the vaccines or not have national health cover.
Excellent Huffpost article today from a scientist supporting the vaccine approach to Covid protection and control, and debunking the anti-vax and no-vax claims along the way:
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/vaccines-coronavirus-anti-vaxxers-coronavirus_uk_5fbcf15cc5b66bb88c615c22?ncid=APPLENEWS00001&guccounter=1 (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/vaccines-coronavirus-anti-vaxxers-coronavirus_uk_5fbcf15cc5b66bb88c615c22?ncid=APPLENEWS00001&guccounter=1)
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 30, 2020, 11:00:18 AM
I agree that you cannot force people to take Vaccines, but you can also not force the rest of us to pay for their medical treatment if they refuse to take it. This door swings both ways.
Precisely. Like I say, void any life/travel insurance and refuse cover where necessary although how this is policed without requiring some form of 'I've been vaccinated' certification I wouldn't know.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 30, 2020, 11:00:18 AM
I agree that you cannot force people to take Vaccines, but you can also not force the rest of us to pay for their medical treatment if they refuse to take it. This door swings both ways.
Precisely. Like I say, void any life/travel insurance and refuse cover where necessary although how this is policed without requiring some form of 'I've been vaccinated' certification I wouldn't know.
If some form of ID card was issued then medical treatment, insurance etc could be monitored.
Yes, it really does need something as stringent as that IMO.
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 30, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 30, 2020, 11:00:18 AM
I agree that you cannot force people to take Vaccines, but you can also not force the rest of us to pay for their medical treatment if they refuse to take it. This door swings both ways.
Precisely. Like I say, void any life/travel insurance and refuse cover where necessary although how this is policed without requiring some form of 'I've been vaccinated' certification I wouldn't know.
Red flag on their NHS and NI records.
With insurance it could be simply a case of the onus being on the insured * to prove to the insurer that they were vaccinated against the condition they are making a claim against. In other words, as it is now with travel insurance cover, for example, for covered conditions, situations, activities etc.
No Vax, No Claim. Simples.
(* or their heirs/executors ;) )
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 30, 2020, 11:50:40 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 30, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 30, 2020, 11:00:18 AM
I agree that you cannot force people to take Vaccines, but you can also not force the rest of us to pay for their medical treatment if they refuse to take it. This door swings both ways.
Precisely. Like I say, void any life/travel insurance and refuse cover where necessary although how this is policed without requiring some form of 'I've been vaccinated' certification I wouldn't know.
Red flag on their NHS and NI records.
What have you got against people in Belfast? ;)
Hi Folks,
Not sure draconian measures are necessarily helpful. Far better to win the argument based on fact and common sense (this is what I did within my own mind). At a high level, I believe there are three camps with regards to vaccines.
1. Give it to me - I am happy to have the shot as I trust our scientific experts and the alternative is too scary to contemplate.
2. Genuine concern about the rushed nature of this particular vaccine. Personally, I fall in to this category. As I stated above, I am not anti-vaccine but on this occasion the drug development and testing has been compressed in to a much shorter timeframe than normal. No doubt there has also been considerable political pressure (not necessarily from the British Government) to get the vaccine out and this could lead to catastrophic errors/omissions etc. These people need to be reassured that this really is the best option for them, their loved ones and mankind, not threatened.
3. Anti-vaxers. It does not matter what you do, these people will NEVER have the injection. Most of them are convinced that this is some grand conspiracy funded by a new world order headed by Bill Gates, "men in the shadows" and/or aliens. Threats of insurance etc. are really aimed at these people but are a waste of time.
So really we are talking about groups 1 and 2. Group 1 is a done deal, so it is down to group 2 and convincing those people that the CV19 vaccine is safe enough and far less dangerous than the alternative.
Kind regards
Paddy
There has just been a very sane and sage piece on BBC Radio 4 on "Vaccinating the World". Available on BBC Sounds for anyone with 30 minutes to spare. The scientists there, unconnected with any of the drug trials, said unreservedly they would be happy to take any of the 3 vaccines recently received.
I am happy to receive any of them.
A vaccine for a fading form of what is now mild flu? Probably not for me.
https://lockdownsceptics.org/the-pcr-false-positive-pseudo-epidemic/
Any early licensing of these experimental vaccines can't measure their long term effects, there being no long term data, of course. Nor do we know how long they would be effective for. And probably a good half of the population is immune already. Nor have I read anything about whether they would be compatible with the existing flu viruses.
Obviously I have no specialist knowledge. But there's the possibility that the (supposed) protection might have worse effects than the disease.
Not sure about this, but did I see a suggestion that the Irish government might indemnify pharma against side effects?
I'm watching and waiting.
I'm quite happy to have any of the vaccines, as I have done for a long while the Flu jab. My concern is over the long term. If it's going to take perhaps until next autumn to get most of the UK done alone, and like the Flu jab you need one each year, how on earth is the world going to cope. For these don't seem, at present anyway, to be long term vaccines, lasting several/many years.
Or is the hope that general resistance then will cause it to fade away to more manageable levels? Certainly it's the highly infectious nature of it that has caught the world out, in comparison to other recent virus problems.
Izzy
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
A vaccine for a fading form of what is now mild flu?
A good friend of mine has just had her gall bladder removed from your 'mild flu', and a healthy 30something ex-work colleague of my wife's was cremated recently because of your 'mild flu'.
Try reading the 'real' news or the scientific reports rather than the fictional 'moron mags'.
If you don't want the vaccine thats your perogative, but kindly refrain from trying to spread misinformation, false facts and bullcrap.
Have a nice day.
Hear, hear! :thumbsup:
The problem with the science early on was nobody really knew enough about the virus and how it spread to be 100% certain the advice they were giving was correct. As time went on we learnt more and the advice changed accordingly (e.g. face masks made a difference). The problem then was that having been given advice, how the government decided to use it balancing the needs of the NHS against that of the economy. That subject will keep politics and economics PhD students busy for years to come and isn't one to discuss here!
The Covid-19 vaccines haven't been rushed through at the expense of safety. No country on earth is going to authorise the use of a drug across its whole population unless it's been proven safe. Likewise, no drug company is going to open themselves up to litigation should there be side effects.
Vaccines are a well understood science and Covid-19 has probably been studied to a level no other virus has been. The speed of the production of the vaccines has been due to a number of events. Some examples:
The group behind the Oxford vaccine was involved in producing one for Ebola. What they learnt from that meant that they had a method of creating vaccines for other virus very quickly. Having the bare bones of a vaccine means that much of the risks are already well known before trials commence.
The size of the pandemic meant that the drug companies had no trouble getting volunteers for the studies. Normally they can struggle.
Computer modelling has come on so much that little safety testing needs to be done on animals before the drug can be tested on humans. I believe in the case of the Oxford vaccine only a couple of monkeys were tested on before human trials started.
In many cases the teams involved in making the vaccines are confident enough of their product that they started production long before clinical trials have finished. This will cut down the time from getting the green light from the regulators to actually giving injections considerably.
As was mentioned a couple of posts ago, there's been some really interesting features on the vaccines on Radio Four recently which are well worth finding on BBC Sounds/iPlayer.
I'd be very surprised if it takes until the autumn until the vaccine is fully rolled out. The NHS currently gives out over 20 million seasonal flu vaccines each year over about an 8 week period, with more paid for vaccines being given out by pharmacists. Add in the support of the military and I can see it only being 3-4 months until most of the population could have had it.
Also, bear in mind that even early on the first few hundred thousand vaccinated individuals will be helping lower infection rates.
Steven B.
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
A vaccine for a fading form of what is now mild flu? Probably not for me.
https://lockdownsceptics.org/the-pcr-false-positive-pseudo-epidemic/
One thing Covid-19 is not doing is fading. Cases are accelerating across the northern hemisphere. Your "mild flu" has killed one aquaintance of ours (who was neither old nor at risk), left 2 of our friends with "long covid" and has currently put my mother-in-law in hospital.
If you don't trust governments, that is your prerogative. But if nothing else, trust the science because numbers don't lie. We have nearly 60K dead in the UK alone and well over a million worldwide. If you choose not to trust mainstream media and scientists then you have a responsibility to get your facts from reliable sources and not anti-scientific conspiracy sites like the one above. 20 years ago this is the sort of site that would have been publishing UFO sightings.
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
A vaccine for a fading form of what is now mild flu?
Mild flu? Rather sure that the mild flu doesn't have anywhere near the fatality rate per infection that Covid has had, and the long term effects of the actual flu viruses are no where near as severe as we are only just beginning to see from people whom have survived Covid!
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
https://lockdownsceptics.org/the-pcr-false-positive-pseudo-epidemic/
Have you actually looked at who wrote the piece? Dr Mike Yeadon the former CSO of Pfizer who was "asked" to step down (Polite way of saying given a P45), who since then has gone on to try and discredit his former employers research in multiple fields, even basically trying to discredit research he was involved in!
Which basically says to me if his research while at his former employer was a load of rubbish why on earth am I going to listen to him now, it makes anything he says even more unreliable at best!Also the same man whom on the very same website in September said "there is no evidence for a second wave", despite the global scientific and medical community saying there is a very real danger of a second wave and having the very real evidence to back it up, and now less than 3 months later we have seen that very real evidence play out....Oops guess he was wrong on that one!
Call me cynical but this sounds like a man with an axe to grind against his former employer and colleagues! Funnily enough in the same vain as a Professor who was on BBC Radio 2 last week (I cannot remember her name), but she pretty much said the same as him and guess what she had been "asked to leave" her employer and even better had been struck off the medical register, now don't know about anyone else but I am beginning to see a theme develop here......
Quote from: Steven B on November 30, 2020, 01:54:28 PM
Vaccines are a well understood science and Covid-19 has probably been studied to a level no other virus has been. The speed of the production of the vaccines has been due to a number of events. Some examples:
Don't forget the astronomical sums of money being thrown at the problem. One doctor mentioned a trivial example of the fact that they had the resources to charter aircraft to get personnel and materials where they needed to be as fast as possible. This sort of thing is normally unheard of for medical research.
The vaccines have not been rushed.
90% of vaccine development time is arguing for funding with drug companies trying to decide if it will be profitable to continue.
So with free flowing funding ten years development shrinks to one.
Its not rocket science, (well actually it is :))
Hi Folks,
To be frank, I am not sure there is a viable alternative to not taking the vaccine. Large parts of our economy have been severely damaged by the pandemic and will take years to recover. People have lost loved ones, colleagues etc. so the emotional scars will also last a lifetime. We cannot spend our lives in lockdown (even though personally I have rather enjoyed the peace!) and our Government will run out of money (well it didn't have any real money before CV19).
There is one thing I struggle to understand the logic of though. The Government's experts say there will be a second wave and it is going to be bad unless we lockdown. The second wave comes and the numbers start rising. The Government puts us all in to lockdown, the numbers fall and then you hear "well, that was a waste of time" from certain quarters. Surely the fact we went in the lockdown and the numbers are dropping proves it was a reasonable (I was going to write "good" but that is subjective) decision?
My family has been fortunate not to have been hit by CV19 (numbers in the west country have been lower). The downside of not being exposed to the disease (and I suspect we are not alone but rather the majority) is that it can appear unreal or less serious. I have been overly cautious with my own family, drumming in to them the need to follow the rules, working on the basis that it is better to be safe than sorry. I believe they call their Dad a "COVID NAZI"! :o
Mind you, I will be glad to get rid of the face masks in due course.
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 30, 2020, 10:48:34 AM
The only really bad vaccine I can recall was the thalidomide one (and I could be wrong as to whether that was a vaccine).
No as said the Thalidomide is a type of cytotoxic drug that was at the time been used to treat morning sickness.
Main difference here is that the vaccine is not a chemical drug that you are taking on a daily basis and therefore coming with all the associated risks. It is merely a modified RNA profile that gets exposed to the body and therefore stimulating the body to produce antibodies/stop the virus latching onto cells.
The vehicle for delivering the vaccine into the body has been available a while and has been used to give past vaccines with success and safety. The only bit of this vaccine that is new is the modified RNA profile taking from a chimp flu virus. Now although new I cant see this causing any harmful effects personally.
As touched on in other posts the amount of money been spent on the vaccine and its distribution network is massive! I have worked for the NHS for about 15 years and have never seen so much rapid spending on something. Usually its months before finances are agreed for something.
For context our pharmacy department has gain x5 new members of staff extra within a week (attractive wages to get rapid intake of good staff) and already have the equipment to store the vaccines in (-70'C freezers). Again not cheap and easy to install. Amazing what can be achieved when funding is given!
Anyway going off point. We are told as frontline NHS staff to be expecting a vaccine around xmas time. I will certainly be rolling up my sleeve for mine :wave:
Will you need to roll up your sleeve though?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/102/262-301120150822-1025471908.jpeg)
I don't want to get into an argument on this friendly, board, so briefly:
First, I did say what is *now* mild flu.
Second, some of the most eminent epidemiologists have composed The Great Barrington Declaration, saying that the oldest should be shielded and everyone else get on with their lives. https://gbdeclaration.org/
Third, the 'cases' are false positives from the PCR test. The army have found virtually no cases in their mass testing in Liverpool.
There were no excess deaths in October this year, say the ONS. 7 more deaths than in October last year.
Anyway, I'm only giving my point of view, not trying to convert anyone, so I don't intend to return to this topic. Back to trains.
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 03:13:49 PM
... the oldest should be shielded and everyone else get on with their lives.
Except of course that it does not work. Elderly and/or vulnerable people are living in households with individuals that have to go to work or school (often on public transport for the latter); living at home, but relying upon carers coming in multiple times per day; living in care homes with workers who have to travel there each day and are spending the rest of the time with their own family and friends, all of who may pass it on. Even those fully able to care for themselves are still having to shop (a home delivery every fortnight is no good for milk, bread and suchlike, so people have to top up at the local shops). It is impossible to effectively isolate one part of the population completely from another. The only course of action is therefore to do whatever brings the rate of infection and the incidence in the community down, so as to reduce the risk of spreading it to the elderly/vulnerable.
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 03:13:49 PM
Second, some of the most eminent epidemiologists have composed The Great Barrington Declaration, saying that the oldest should be shielded and everyone else get on with their lives. https://gbdeclaration.org/ (https://gbdeclaration.org/)
There were no excess deaths in October this year, say the ONS. 7 more deaths than in October last year.
The least you could have done was also cite the John Snow Memorandum, signed by equally eminent scientists.
Whilst excess deaths are decidedly unpalatable, that is not the whole problem with this virus. The resources, staff, beds, ventilators, time, money, etc., etc., required to care for those with the virus who DON'T die are an as big if not a bigger problem that we have to deal with.
Lockdown and restrictions are not there to rid the world of the virus, they are there to allow us to treat those who are infected without overloading health services.
The JSM states: (restrictions to slow the spread of sars -CoV2 [are]) "essential to reduce mortality,
prevent health-care services from being overwhelmed, and buy time to set up pandemic response systems to suppress transmission". It described focused protection as "a dangerous fallacy unsupported by scientific evidence" and warned that "uncontrolled transmission in younger people risks significant morbidity and mortality across the whole population". The memorandum concluded by asserting that "
controlling community spread of COVID-19 is the best way to protect our societies and economies until safe and effective vaccines and therapeutics arrive within the coming months".
Best
Scott.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30555-5/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30555-5/fulltext)
https://www.johnsnowmemo.com/ (https://www.johnsnowmemo.com/)
Quote from: Trainfish on November 30, 2020, 03:09:16 PM
Will you need to roll up your sleeve though?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/102/262-301120150822-1025471908.jpeg)
;D ;D ;D
Hopefully not. Bad enough I had to get topless in the clinic this year for my flu jab as I couldn't roll my sleeve up enough. Got a sweet and a sticker though so I was happy :D
quote " The only bit of this vaccine that is new is the modified RNA profile taking from a chimp flu virus. "
perhaps you'll get a sticker and a banana :smiley-laughing:
Hi all, me again :worried:
One thing @Paddy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=356) said before and I think is fair cop is the groups people generally fall into and how to tackle it:
Quote from: Paddy on November 30, 2020, 12:08:30 PM
1. Give it to me
2. Genuine concern about the rushed nature of this particular vaccine. Personally, I fall in to this category.
3. Anti-vaxers.
Group one is easy of course, group two is where you have to explain more to quell concerns. Now a former colleague of mine and good friend who happens to work at the Defence CBRN school at Porton Down (The site shared by the MoD, PHE and a number of pharmaceutical firms) shared with me an analogy which rings true for me so it's worth a shot:
Imagine if you will a collection of tanks, these are the Coronavirus family a motley collection of vehicles with the same building blocks and work in a broadly similar fashion. They have been around a while so we know how they work and know each individual tanks weakness and where to target them with what weapons with success and in a manner as safe as possible to those who are involved.
Then the new tank (Covid-19) appears we know the basic building blocks, how it broadly works, and we have the weapons to combat it so 75% of the work is done it's the final 25% of where its weak spot is to target it. This is where the research has been done finding that weak spot and choosing the right weapon in the arsenal we have built up to hit it with.
So instead of having to spend years trying to figure out its building blocks, how works, develop new weapons to combat it only been able to tackle the question in hand when the prior one has been answered we are left with where to hit it so instead of trying to answer 4 questions which are all complex were are only trying to answer one single question meaning all the effort can be directed at that question. Which means we can find the answer a lot faster than if this was a completely new tank which works nothing like anything we have ever seen before and we had to answer all four questions.
At the same time when we select the weapon to hit the weak spot with we know how to use it and minimise the dangers to those involvedI got it when my friend explained it like that so thought I would share it as it explained it easier than some of the more technical methods I have seen out there.
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 03:13:49 PM
There were no excess deaths in October this year, say the ONS. 7 more deaths than in October last year.
Anyway, I'm only giving my point of view, not trying to convert anyone, so I don't intend to return to this topic. Back to trains.
I cannot find that figure in any of the ONS weekly data. I would really like to see how this was derived from the ONS weekly data. There was one fewer reporting day in 2020 against 2019, so a whole day's deaths not counted as October 2020. @Buffin (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=719)
I'm only here because I was tagged. @woodbury22uk (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1599)
QuoteIn October 2020, there were 43,265 deaths registered in England. This was similar to the number in October 2019 (eight more deaths), but it was 2,713 more than the five-year average (2015 to 2019) for October.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/october2020#leading-causes-of-death-registered-in-october-2020 (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/october2020#leading-causes-of-death-registered-in-october-2020)
If we're really in the grip of a pandemic
dangerous enough to justify the lockdown of society with all its implications, for me the numbers would need to be way higher. But I'm out of here again.
Without doubt this subject is very volatile but all are entitled to their opinions regardless. If figures are being quoted please link to the source or don't quote them at all. If any opinions stated make you angry in the slightest, I'd ask for calm before you post replies. We have 6 pages so far without politics creeping in so I thank you for that. Please just show respect to contributors.
Quote from: Buffin on November 30, 2020, 07:13:55 PM
I'm only here because I was tagged. @woodbury22uk (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1599)
QuoteIn October 2020, there were 43,265 deaths registered in England. This was similar to the number in October 2019 (eight more deaths), but it was 2,713 more than the five-year average (2015 to 2019) for October.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/october2020#leading-causes-of-death-registered-in-october-2020 (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/october2020#leading-causes-of-death-registered-in-october-2020)
If we're really in the grip of a pandemic dangerous enough to justify the lockdown of society with all its implications, for me the numbers would need to be way higher. But I'm out of here again.
I won't tag Buffin again.
So he was quoting the figure for October 2020 for England which was 8 higher in 2020,than in 2019 although 2713 above the five year average, in spite of one fewer reporting day in 2020. The figure for Wales was +118 on 2019, again with one fewer reporting day. I was struggling with this because the weekly figures were showing increases. These have the same number of reporting days each week.
..........And the total figures show fewer people are dying of other causes especially as a lot of infectious diseases are being partly supressed by COVID regulations.
You also have to remember that COVID is killing off early the reservoir of people who would have died in short order anyway so the excess death figure is inevitably distorting with time. As a statistician would tell you that uncontrolled COVID would eventually kill everyone susceptible to dying with the disease and the death rate for all reasons would normalise without any precautions. The problem is that the population would be 40% smaller.
Just to spice things up :D
Durex have reported, based on their sales, that large parts of the population have also gone off sex, and there has been a drop in sexually transmitted diseases despite the fall of use of their product. :o
One important thing to take away from the ONS figures for October is that although the year on year figures were very similar, the number of deaths due to causes other than Coronavirus this October were less than those of 2019.
@Buffin (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=719) - "If we're really in the grip of a pandemic dangerous enough to justify the lockdown of society with all its implications, for me the numbers would need to be way higher."
Take away the Lockdown, either the style we had earlier in the year or this current one, or the Tier levels that are to follow it, and you would soon find that 'need' fulfilled. And even with such measures I fear the numbers will rise considerably over the coming months.
This is a Pandemic, no matter how you view it. It is worldwide, hence the name, and by the end of this week some 1,500,000 people will have died from the effects of the virus, with millions more otherwise affected adversely for periods as yet unknown.
ONE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DEATHS! - and that's just in about two thirds of a year since Covid19 began to get our attention.
And the winter in the highly populated Northern Hemisphere, always a time the medical services dread as it inevitably leads to an extra burden on their physical, mental and logistical resources even in 'normal' years, is only just beginning.
So stay safe, may the virus pass you by, and may you never know the pain, the suffering and the agony that this 'now' apparently 'mild flu' (we'll have to differ on that descriptor I'm afraid) can, and will, inflict upon so many, many more lives for many months to come.
I shall do as Buffin wishes and not tag him in this,
But his analysis is flawed on 2 fronts, firstly does Pandemic have to just included deaths? No, not at all the definition of a pandemic is:
"A pandemic is an epidemic occurring on a scale that crosses international boundaries, usually affecting people on a worldwide scale." and "A disease or condition is not a pandemic merely because it is widespread or kills many people; it must also be infectious".
Think it is fair to say Covid 19 does fall firmly into those predefined descriptions.
Then the second flawed points is the number of deaths in the UK according to the ONS while it may be true that only 8 more deaths may have been recorded in October it doesn't account for the dramatic change in our behaviours and activities. We have been far less active as a country (no pubs, no large outdoor pursuits, some companies where industrial accidents are a risk have not operated or limited operations, less people driving to work so less road traffic accidents).
A truer gauge of this is the PHE statistics which take this into account:
https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html (https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html)
Which shows even with the expected decrease deaths due to us been less active the excess mortality rate for October due to Covid 19 is around 2,540 and that is paled when you compare it the third week in April when in one week alone there was 11,247 excess deaths due to Covid.
What those statistics do show for October though is the negative upward trend through the month of Covid related deaths similar to what we saw in early March, which backs up the scientific stand point a second lock down was a must to prevent the numbers of deaths and infections reaching what we saw in April.
What that document from the PHE does show very clearly also is that of the 59,858 excess deaths recorded between 20th March and the first week in November 58,335 were deaths directly attributable to Covid 19, which when the total deaths in that period is taken into account the deaths due to the virus accounts for around 16% of total deaths and is the highest single factor for deaths! Only cancer as a collective of all types has had a higher mortality rate in that same period, which speaks volumes and for itself!
I have just spent part of my birthday in a drive thru centre getting a covid test, now I (and my family) have to wait for the results to come in.
Three weeks ago my daughter got married in front of 14 people not the 100 planned, next week my 81 y o mum moves house (after a covid delay), daughter and her new hubby move house in Jan subject to none of us testing positive in the next few weeks.
If positive, my work place has to shut down for two weeks, that's another 8 people and their families affected, then there is my wife's' company, another 10 families etc, etc.
Not taking the option of a vaccine doesn't just affect you, it affects the loved ones who surround you. Denying the global brilliance that has brought about these vaccines is ignorant, demeaning and selfish.
For the ones close to me that I love, I hope my test comes back negative because it will make their lives easier and make them realise that having the option for getting vaccinated is a really positive step.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 30, 2020, 07:48:17 PMDurex have reported, based on their sales, that large parts of the population have also gone off sex, and there has been a drop in sexually transmitted diseases despite the fall of use of their product. :o
Due to certain "hospitality establishments" being closed ?!? ;) :-[
It is important to watch the effects in the US when 6 MILLION poeple took air flights to celebrate Thanksgiving - the forthcoming spike in cases and deaths may be the final nail in the coffin of the US medical system.
Now wait for the effects of our Christmas holiday!!
Quote from: Railwaygun on November 30, 2020, 10:56:44 PM
It is important to watch the effects in the US when 6 MILLION poeple took air flights to celebrate Thanksgiving - the forthcoming spike in cases and deaths may be the final nail in the coffin of the US medical system.
Now wait for the effects of our Christmas holiday!!
If it is severe enough in the US what's the odds on a UK Christmas rethink at the last minute.
The thanksgiving deaths should start to roll in from the 12th December.
I for one will be taking up the vaccine as soon as it is available to me. I think some of the earlier posts hit it on the head we have to get back to being responsible to everyone and not just being concerned about our rights. Also by being vaccinated I will be able to travel again and I want to get to see the family back in the UK. (should also coincide with TINGS 21 if I am lucky and it is running).
See you there, then. :thumbsup:
The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved for use in the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696)
Quote from: Flange Squeal on December 02, 2020, 07:11:59 AM
The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved for use in the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696)
Just watch those politicians demonstrate it's safe to use... AKA jumping the queue
Quote from: The Q on December 02, 2020, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Flange Squeal on December 02, 2020, 07:11:59 AM
The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved for use in the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696)
Just watch those politicians demonstrate it's safe to use... AKA jumping the queue
True. But given the millions of doses ordered, if it helps increase confidence in the vaccine then I won't complain (too loudly ;) ).
Quote from: The Q on December 02, 2020, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Flange Squeal on December 02, 2020, 07:11:59 AM
The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved for use in the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696)
Just watch those politicians demonstrate it's safe to use... AKA jumping the queue
They can't win either way... If they don't have it the media says they're not confident of it and are using the population as guinea pigs. If they do have it, the media says they're being selfish and jumping the queue.
Please, let's not sink to that level here...
Quote from: PLD on December 02, 2020, 11:03:30 AM
Quote from: The Q on December 02, 2020, 08:04:02 AM
Quote from: Flange Squeal on December 02, 2020, 07:11:59 AM
The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved for use in the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696)
Just watch those politicians demonstrate it's safe to use... AKA jumping the queue
They can win either way... If they don't have it the media says they're not confident of it and are using the population as guinea pigs. If they do have it, the media says they're being selfish and jumping the queue.
Please, let's not sink to that level here...
To quote someone recently
"Politicians should have the vaccines first. If they survive the vaccine is safe, if they don't the country is safe" :D
Depends on whether a Big Mac is classed as a substantial meal I suppose. Like Scotch eggs :doh:
[gmod]Some specific political posts removed. Let's keep politics out of it or we'll have to (sadly) lock the thread[/gmod]
To avoid (or add to?) any confusion I deleted my post PLD has quoted after NPN deleted the posts it was referring to, as he was posting it. So if nothing now makes sense normal service has been restored. :)
QuoteDepends on whether a Big Mac is classed as a substantial meal
can it even be classed as food?
Quote from: themadhippy on December 02, 2020, 12:53:12 PM
QuoteDepends on whether a Big Mac is classed as a substantial meal
can it even be classed as food?
Just like Marathon and Snickers, I remember when Big Mac was Gannex.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 02, 2020, 01:12:21 PM
Quote from: themadhippy on December 02, 2020, 12:53:12 PM
QuoteDepends on whether a Big Mac is classed as a substantial meal
can it even be classed as food?
Just like Marathon and Snickers, I remember when Big Mac was Gannex.
Must be an age thing, I had to look that up.
Quote from: emjaybee on December 02, 2020, 01:26:29 PM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 02, 2020, 01:12:21 PM
Just like Marathon and Snickers, I remember when Big Mac was Gannex.
Must be an age thing, I had to look that up.
They were modelled in public by a famous political figure back in the 1960s.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 02, 2020, 01:53:49 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on December 02, 2020, 01:26:29 PM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 02, 2020, 01:12:21 PM
Just like Marathon and Snickers, I remember when Big Mac was Gannex.
Must be an age thing, I had to look that up.
They were modelled in public by a famous political figure back in the 1960s.
Yes it was favoured by 1960's comedians :D
(https://filmint.nu/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Playtime-4.jpg)
Quote from: Flange Squeal on December 02, 2020, 07:11:59 AM
The Pfizer vaccine has just been approved for use in the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55145696)
Apparently we are getting our stock in next week at the hospital I work at. Yet to hear who is in line for the first round though.....
I can just picture it now. Everyone queuing up in an orderly fashion and then.........................
Quote from: Bealman on November 30, 2020, 09:07:43 AM
I've never had a flu jab, either. However, I do listen to doctors orders.
Ten years ago, I felt like death warmed up. Turned out I had iron overload.
I've been dumping blood ever since, which keeps my Iron under control. Got two before Christmas, actually! :beers:
Haemachromatosis carrier, hey. A gift from bubonic plague survivors. :) How many "defective" genes?
I got one gene out of the four, luckily one of the two least deadly ones. Wife has same gene so of course do my three children, genetics wins.
Made 1,130 on the ferritin levels. Doctor was quite surprised. Drained me three times, 600ml each time, in two weeks to get it down to around 350.
When I felt really ill, my Iron level was 2300. It's currently sitting at 550, but the two dumps before Christmas should fix me up. First one in the morning!
Los Angeles just issued an emergency stay at home notice, and the rest of California will probably follow.
The Venture Capitalists in the valley are now investing in lorries with big signs saying "Bring out your Dead"
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 03, 2020, 11:55:40 AM
Los Angeles just issued an emergency stay at home notice, and the rest of California will probably follow.
The Venture Capitalists in the valley are now investing in lorries with big signs saying "Bring out your Dead"
thought for a moment this was the daily groaner thread
Quote from: Trainfish on December 02, 2020, 02:52:16 PM
I can just picture it now. Everyone queuing up in an orderly fashion and then.........................
nice to see they are all 2 metres from everyone else :veryangry:
Quote from: class37025 on December 03, 2020, 01:50:26 PM
Quote from: Trainfish on December 02, 2020, 02:52:16 PM
I can just picture it now. Everyone queuing up in an orderly fashion and then.........................
nice to see they are all 2 metres from everyone else :veryangry:
Why would they be? :hmmm: That video was first Published on 25 Nov 2011. :doh:
But one wonders what happened there - Urban Outfitters in the Thousand Oaks Mall in California - this year? :hmmm:
There's a good article on the BBC website about how the Oxford vaccine has been produced so quickly:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55041371 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55041371)
Basically:
The foundations for a vaccine were already in place
There was lots of experience from SARS and MERS corona viruses
They quickly worked out what to exploit to get a working vaccine
Money - lot of of it
Volunteers - lots of them
No delays between trial stages
Regulatory authority putting it at the top of the to-do pile.
Steven B.
I did not think the responses from other countries about the UK approving a vaccine was very helpful today. However, Gavin Williamson's comment made me smile. :)
Kind regards
Paddy
The only way they can win that argument is to tell all of Europe none of them can have the Pfizer Vaccine, and that is not going to happen.
The point they were trying to make very badly is that a European approval still holds the manufacturer liable. The UK emergency approval indemnifies the manufacturer. So nothing to do with the vaccine itself only what happens if it goes wrong.
QuoteThe only way they can win that argument is to tell all of Europe none of them can have the Pfizer Vaccine
no chance,theirs
to much profit for the share holders prestige at stake
Quoteindemnifies the manufacturer.
Dont want to risk all that profit
slow of the mark their @PLD (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=647) your normally much quicker to dislike my posts
Quote from: themadhippy on December 03, 2020, 06:43:21 PM
slow of the mark their @PLD (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=647) your normally much quicker to dislike my posts
PLD is not the only one who doesn't like your post. Either present proof of your accusations or the post gets deleted. You like skating on thin ice ice, don't you? :unimpressed:
QuoteEither present proof of your accusations or the post gets deleted.
proof of what?
Quote from: themadhippy on December 03, 2020, 10:01:01 PM
QuoteEither present proof of your accusations or the post gets deleted.
proof of what?
Proof of all the profits you insinuate the shareholders will make
From BBC News online this evening:
"The first consignment of the Pfizer/BioNTech coronavirus vaccine has arrived in the UK.
It has been taken to a central hub at an undisclosed location, and will now be distributed to hospital vaccination centres around the UK."
Let's hope and pray that this will truly be a new dawn in the battle against this virus.
Of course we just need everybody to still keep safe and sensible (yeah, I know, not done so so far in some cases) for a long, long time yet, and not run away with the idea that it's time to relax.
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, a new hope. (apologies to Winston and George)
QuoteProof of all the profits you insinuate the shareholders will make
you honestly think there doing it for humanitarian reasons,but ok as you asked
QuoteThe firm's chief executive, Bill Enright, told the WSJ that Vaccitech and its investors would receive a "big chunk of the royalties from a successful vaccine as well as 'milestone' payments, but only after the pandemic is declared over".
https://www.theweek.co.uk/107698/who-is-set-to-make-money-from-the-oxford-coronavirus-vaccine (https://www.theweek.co.uk/107698/who-is-set-to-make-money-from-the-oxford-coronavirus-vaccine)
QuotePfizer ultimately announced it would work on a vaccine on April 9 in partnership with Mainz, Germany-based BioNTech — a collaboration that has gone on to great success. Shares in the two companies rose 7.7 per cent and 13.9 per respectively on Monday
https://www.ft.com/content/0b18aac0-50a3-4694-9d28-ccbc44debcb2 (https://www.ft.com/content/0b18aac0-50a3-4694-9d28-ccbc44debcb2)
QuotePfizer and its German biotech partner, BioNTech, stand to make an astonishing £9.8bn next year from a coronavirus vaccine
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/12/covid-vaccine-patent-pharmaceutical-industry-profits-public-sector (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/12/covid-vaccine-patent-pharmaceutical-industry-profits-public-sector)
https://assets.oxfamamerica.org/media/documents/Pandemic_Profiteers_Exposed.pdf (https://assets.oxfamamerica.org/media/documents/Pandemic_Profiteers_Exposed.pdf)
https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/lead-covid-19-vaccine-players-will-split-100b-sales-and-40b-profits-analyst (https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/lead-covid-19-vaccine-players-will-split-100b-sales-and-40b-profits-analyst)
https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/news-analysis/vaccines-coronavirus-pharmaceutical-companies-profit-a9644376.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/news-analysis/vaccines-coronavirus-pharmaceutical-companies-profit-a9644376.html)
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/health/covid-19-vaccine-coronavirus-moderna-pfizer.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/health/covid-19-vaccine-coronavirus-moderna-pfizer.html)
want some more or shall i get the ice skates
What were Rhett Butler's last words to Scarlett in Gone with the Wind? :hmmm:
- a rhettorical (sic) question.
Quote from: Trainfish on December 02, 2020, 02:52:16 PM
I can just picture it now. Everyone queuing up in an orderly fashion and then.........................
Looks like a study of flow dynamics.
Quote from: themadhippy on December 03, 2020, 06:43:21 PM
slow of the mark their @PLD (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=647) your normally much quicker to dislike my posts
I don't understand your attitude towards people on this forum.
You are aware this isn't RMweb?
There's nothing smart about being deliberately antagonistic. If you want to continually start an argument, please find an empty room.
There is a paradox there!
Quote from: themadhippy on December 03, 2020, 10:25:11 PM
QuoteProof of all the profits you insinuate the shareholders will make
you honestly think there doing it for humanitarian reasons,but ok as you asked
This may come as a surprise to you but virtually all companies make profits and shareholders, who invest money taking risks at times, do actually get rewarded for doing so. After all, where do you think your trains come from - companies making huge losses?
It's you who seems to believe all the drug companies should be creating vaccines as a public service and that's just plain daft.
Anyway, I'm not playing any more 'post tennis' as I'm sure it's just boring/annoying to others.
Just as a matter of interest, has anyone heard any info about the Russian vaccine recently?
Some detail here
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/12/04/coronavirus-in-russia-the-latest-news-dec-4-a69117 (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/12/04/coronavirus-in-russia-the-latest-news-dec-4-a69117)
Looks like it's still a contentious issue.
Quote from: Malc on December 04, 2020, 10:59:43 AM
Just as a matter of interest, has anyone heard any info about the Russian vaccine recently?
Apparently the innovative doorknob-based method of distribution turned out to have some issues, especially when the wrong vials were used. They are now considering using specially adapted and sharpened umbrellas.
In other news, Bloomberg tells me I live in the country ranked second for
overall coronavirus resilience (https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-resilience-ranking/) (only New Zealand ranks better), though it only scores 4 (out of 5) for vaccine availability.
QuoteThis may come as a surprise to you but virtually all companies make profits and shareholders, who invest money taking risks at times, do actually get rewarded for doing so
As you are aware of the fact why bother asking for proof,however the profit itself is not the main issue,even though pharmaceutical company's have a history of using publicly funded research to further there profits,its the no come back clause thats the bigger issue.Taking you railway analogy, syds signals claim to have a revolutionary product that will allow more trains to run on the network,the government decide to refit the entire network with the new system,as part of the contract to get a better price,or be the first to have this new wonder system they agree there'll be no come back on syds signals if something goes wrong.with no come back syd realises maybe a corner can be cut here or a penny saved there,it wont matter, as it wont affect the safety and any way even if it all goes wrong no one can blame syd,he's safe behind an indemnity clause with a large pot of taxpayers money.
Quote from: themadhippy on December 04, 2020, 03:04:23 PM
QuoteThis may come as a surprise to you but virtually all companies make profits and shareholders, who invest money taking risks at times, do actually get rewarded for doing so
As you are aware of the fact why bother asking for proof,however the profit itself is not the main issue,even though pharmaceutical company's have a history of using publicly funded research to further there profits,its the no come back clause thats the bigger issue.Taking you railway analogy, syds signals claim to have a revolutionary product that will allow more trains to run on the network,the government decide to refit the entire network with the new system,as part of the contract to get a better price,or be the first to have this new wonder system they agree there'll be no come back on syds signals if something goes wrong.with no come back syd realises maybe a corner can be cut here or a penny saved there,it wont matter, as it wont affect the safety and any way even if it all goes wrong no one can blame syd,he's safe behind an indemnity clause with a large pot of taxpayers money.
So someone finally finally found Syd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nedVpG-GjkE).
Meantime could we take the wider socio-economic discussion out of this model railway forum to the newspaper comments section of your choice, where everyone can feel free to let rip to their heart's content?
I think, and it's only my personal view, that a lot of people will distrust the vaccine because
1. it's appeared so quickly
2. it's being pushed so hard by 'experts' and politicians, who have changed their minds so often that they are no longer trusted.
3. offers to 'be injected on live tv' don't wash, because those who no longer trust the 'experts' and politicians won't believe they are actually taking the vaccine.
it is a worry that so many people are against the vaccine, but I think understandable.
rules change on a daily basis
politicians are changing their stance daily
and trust has been lost.
this will no doubt cost lives.
if only things had been handled more honestly from the beginning, we might not be in this situation.
[mod]We'll put this thread to sleep now as it's one of those subjects which attracts very strong opinions which are not conducive to the running of a model railway forum[/mod]
:locked: