Stanier Suburbans from Dapol

[Dalek]

So this Driving Brake Third, any examples of what would be on the other end?
Steam only?, i seen a mention of a motor on it on this thread?

I've only really came across the auto coach and pannier before.

Craig

As per earlier in the thread: in Push-pull operation a steam loco fitted with appropriate Vacuum control gear. Pre 1948, mainly an assortment of pre-grouping design tank locos (currently nothing available RTR). Post-war the Ivatt 2MT tank is common and a small batch of Jinties confined to South Wales.
Not compatible with locos of any other region: GW used a mechanical linkage, NE was a different air pressure system. SR  technically matching but IIRC, hoses wouldn't connect.
Could of course be used as ordinary coaching stock with any loco with compatible Vac Brakes...

The carriage was not fitted with a motor (not self propelled) - the term "motor train" was one of several descriptions applied to the formation as a whole of Loco+intermediate coaches (with necessary pipework)+Driving/Control coach.

Thanks for the explanation 

Craig

[cmason]

Really looking forward to purchasing these models.

In my teens I made a model of the driving brake third based on a GRAFAR suburban coach following inspiration by an article in Railway Modeller (May 1977, page 144). Unfortunately it got lost along the way, somewhere in all the moves of the last nearly 50 years since its creation. As such I had, only fairly recently, purchased upon Fleabay a sacrificial suburban with an intent to carry out a similar act of butchery ( with apologies for such a sacriligous act to SPAM, to be passed on via John @Train Waiting ). Now it seems that that example of the classic Poole suburban will be saved from the knife, thanks to @Stevie DC and all at Dapol for providing the new DBT,

Cheers,

Colin.     

[madchadbrad]

From the Comet/Wizard models instructions:

BT/T (with van inboard)
BT/C/BT
BT/C/T/BT
BT/T/F/T/BT
BT/C/BT/BT/T/BT
BT/T/F/T/T/BT

No mention of locations or dates.

For a push pull train there would be a DBT and a push pull fitted comp; but could there be an all third and a BT as well or would they too have to be push pull fitted (there is no mention of that in Dapol's list)? Otherwise it'd be just a 2 coach train.

[Train Waiting]

Now it seems that that example of the classic Poole suburban will be saved from the knife, thanks to @Stevie DC and all at Dapol for providing the new DBT,

Phew! The ProperlyPoole carriage has been spared. Sounds like it was a close-run thing, though.

With all good wishes.

John

[Roy L S]

From the Comet/Wizard models instructions:

BT/T (with van inboard)
BT/C/BT
BT/C/T/BT
BT/T/F/T/BT
BT/C/BT/BT/T/BT
BT/T/F/T/T/BT

No mention of locations or dates.

For a push pull train there would be a DBT and a push pull fitted comp; but could there be an all third and a BT as well or would they too have to be push pull fitted (there is no mention of that in Dapol's list)? Otherwise it'd be just a 2 coach train.

I will bow to others with greater knowledge, but it was my understanding that a push-pull set would typically be restricted to two coaches due to limitations of the control linkages between loco and coaches.

[class8mikado]

Really looking forward to purchasing these models.

In my teens I made a model of the driving brake third based on a GRAFAR suburban coach following inspiration by an article in Railway Modeller (May 1977, page 144). Unfortunately it got lost along the way, somewhere in all the moves of the last nearly 50 years since its creation. As such I had, only fairly recently, purchased upon Fleabay a sacrificial suburban with an intent to carry out a similar act of butchery ( with apologies for such a sacriligous act to SPAM, to be passed on via John @Train Waiting ). Now it seems that that example of the classic Poole suburban will be saved from the knife, thanks to @Stevie DC and all at Dapol for providing the new DBT,

Cheers,

Colin. 

Well i found just such a thing on Ebay and to add insult to Injury lifted the white metal end and grafted it ( pretty well by my standards) onto a contemporary Farish Suburban brake... Since then i have discovered offerings from Isinglass (lner) and now this... ( if it comes to pass). 

[Steven B]

There's a brief overview of (ex)LMS Pull and Push trains here:
https://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/Push%20Pull%20YTT.html

I've yet to find any photos of Pull and Push trains with more than three carriages, which given that the system was vacuum based would suggest that's the physical limit of the system (just like the GWR was limited to two vehicles because of the mechanical linkage).

Pulled trains could be longer, whilst its possible that pushed trains could have additional vans added behind the loco.

One coach:
Southwell, 1959: https://flic.kr/p/zF9TZU

Two coaches:
Coniston 1958: https://flic.kr/p/o3c6J6
Northampton 1959: https://flic.kr/p/AtBPpS
Holcombe 1959: https://flic.kr/p/guKk3E

Three coaches:
Deganwy, 1955: https://flic.kr/p/GJY3vB

[PLD]

For a push pull train there would be a DBT and a push pull fitted comp; but could there be an all third and a BT as well or would they too have to be push pull fitted (there is no mention of that in Dapol's list)? Otherwise it'd be just a 2 coach train.

For Push-Pull operation, there would be a Loco at one end of the set and a Driving Control coach at the other end (driving end outwards of course).

In between could be any number of coaches provided they were all "motor fitted" - that means they have the through pipework and electrical connections to connect the Loco to the driving coach. The LMS had fitted Composites and 3rds, though Dapol's initial list only includes fitted Comps.

Theoretically any number of intermediate vehicles could be included, unlike the GW mechanical system where slop in the linkages limited it to one intermediate vehicle. The practical limitation is in the power of the loco (mostly Tanks of power class 1&2) and formations of more than 3 coaches were uncommon, with 2 coaches probably being most common. On the LMS it was very rare (but not totally unknown) for the loco to be in the middle between 2 driving trailers.

Most common formations from photo evidence would seem to be:

• Loco - Composite - Driving Brake Third
• Loco - Third - Driving Brake Third
• Loco - Driving Brake Third
• Loco - Third - Composite - Driving Brake Third
• Loco - Composite - Composite - Driving Brake Third
• Loco - Third - Third - Driving Brake Third
• Loco - Third - Third - Composite - Driving Brake Third

[leachsprite4]

Are these the coaches?
https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrk152.htm

[PLD]

Are these the coaches?
https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrk152.htm

No - the planned Dapol models are Period 3 style coaches.
The pair closed to the Camera are ex-LNWR vehicles, and the far end driving trailer is either a P1 type or ex-LNWR. The intermediate coach at the far end not 100% sure but looks like a period 2 Lav-Composite.

[PLD]

One coach:
Southwell, 1959: https://flic.kr/p/zF9TZU

Two coaches:
Coniston 1958: https://flic.kr/p/o3c6J6
Northampton 1959: https://flic.kr/p/AtBPpS
Holcombe 1959: https://flic.kr/p/guKk3E

Three coaches:
Deganwy, 1955: https://flic.kr/p/GJY3vB

The Welsh Dragon in the Deganwy photo is the definite for me, 1x DBT+2x Comp doable from the range offered, just need to renumber one of the comps.

[Note the Northampton shot is Period 2 stock.]

[chrism]

Two coaches:
Coniston 1958: https://flic.kr/p/o3c6J6

The Coniston motor train looked better pre-war, with an Aspinall Radial at one end 

[madchadbrad]

Any evidence that a "non-driving" BT might have been through fitted for push-pull?

[PLD]

Any evidence that a "non-driving" BT might have been through fitted for push-pull?

Certainly none built motor fitted, and none listed in the known conversions.
I can't see there would be a need for non-driving brakes - The driving trailers were all brakes, and they weren't intended for routes with high demand for luggage space needing a second van in a two/coach train.

[EtchedPixels]

I've yet to find any photos of Pull and Push trains with more than three carriages, which given that the system was vacuum based would suggest that's the physical limit of the system (just like the GWR was limited to two vehicles because of the mechanical linkage).

The GWR was limited to four coaches not two as you could run the mechanical linkages in both directions. That was a standard configuration for some of the Plymouth suburban services.

Not sure how "loco in the middle" worked for the LMS system or if it was even possible.