why aren't there more pre grouping locos available in N?

[Dorsetmike]

@JimSan I have a scratch built A12, loco body is from brass tube and sheet, tender is a UM drive and a hacked Worsley works etch, if I was to do another I would look for a UM Adams 0395 0-6-0 and hack that; you'd need larger drivers and a pair of smaller wheels

A12 in brass


A12 in SR 1930s (handrail a bit oversize!)


UM 0395

[The Q]

Just to be awkward in EM I model either, 13 years before I was born or, 34 years before I was born. In N I model Highland Railways in 1963! So history doesn't come into it!!

However in general it is correct people model what they remember.

N gauge first appeared in 1946 (UK), made by HB Whall, though it was not really mass production until in 1962, with Arnold.
In those days it was extremely difficult to make small electric motors, so it would only have been mainline modern steam express locomotives.
Pre grouping large locos were comparively rare, eg midlands small loco policy, yes GWR and Great Northern had some. But generally the small locos of pre grouping would not have been made.

Move on to the 1960s, when N really got going, and steam was on the way out. Diesels were the new in thing and steam everyone remembered   all the express large locos of the 1930s, both had a nice large body to put motors in. Plenty of models to sell without going back 40 years.

So in general that's why there are few pre grouping locos

[icairns]

Back in 2009, Jeremy Burrows @PGN wrote a series of articles for the N Gauge Journal about the availability of pre-grouping N gauge models.
 
Four articles were published as follows:

   NGJ issue 2009/2: Pre-grouping locomotives
   NGJ issue 2009/3: Pre-grouping rolling stock
   NGJ issue 2009/5: Building a pre-grouping layout
   NGJ issue 2009/6: Pre-Grouping locomotives & rolling stock (updated)

The updated lists in issue 2009/6 are particularly interesting as they show the pre-grouping models that have been produced since the early days of British N gauge.  Obviously, being published in 2009, the lists are not completely up to date today but they do include many obscure (used in the best sense of the word) kits that were produced by cottage industry manufacturers of the time, many of whom are no longer in business. 

I noticed a few minor errors in some of the listings but I think it was certainly a comprehensive listing at the time. For example, the updated list of pre-grouping locos in issue 2009/6 includes over 80 loco models/kits.

It may give people ideas on models/kits to look out for on eBay and at swap meets.
 
Electronic copies of the 2009 NG Journal are available to members from the N Gauge Society shop on either CD or flash drive.

Ian

[PGN]

The models ARE out there ... if you have time to look for them, budget to outbid others when you find them, and don't demand that "everything must be to the same standard as the latest £300 offerings with  lights that go *bing* and writing that you can only read under a magnifying glass".

They exist. In small numbers. In need of repair and attention in many cases ... with parts that are difficult or impossible to obtain now.

The market for them is also small. At most, there were only ever 50 or so members in the Era 1 & 2 group. Add in as many collectors and "rule 1" modellers. Twice as many, if you like. It's still not enough to make new models an economically viable proposition.

We are lucky to have as much as we have. The Dapol terrier in myriad guises. The M7 (about to come out in a much improved guise ... and goodness knows it needs it if you want one to pull more than two or three bogies). The SECR C and N class. The LNWR "Prince of Wales" from Union  Mills ... now alas sold out and not to be repeated. The "City of Truro" (ditto).

The ratio of available models to interested modellers is already FAR higher than for any other period you care to name ... but it still isn't enough to make a worthwhile layout with RTR alone. You need to repaint things. Overlook inaccuracies (Farish 4P in Caledonian livery, anyone?) Build kits, kit-bash, even scratch build. And search out the older models, which I listed in the articles referred to by Ian above.

I was updating these lists for a supplement which the N Gauge Journal was going to run to celebrate the centenary of the Grouping ... and then my eyesight failed. Three operations at Moorfields later, they hope I will get sight back in my right eye. But the supplement has been delayed. A spoiler ... my conclusion is that you CAN model pretty much any of the major pre-grouping systems, and have a decent range of models ... but in many cases they're not easy to come by and unless you possess formidable skills like Gareth or Rudi, you'll probably end up having to make a number of compromises to get what you want. I'm happy to make those compromises (largely because I have no choice).

But are we REALLY worse off than the OO guys? I don't think we are, actually. When my eyes started failing, I broadened my horizons, Started buying a few OO models agaisnt the day that I might not be able to continue in N. Have I been able to assemble a good representative selection for any pre-grpouping system? Not a bit of it! What I can offer is a patchy selection, just the same as when I started on pre-grouping  in N. I've been collecting pre-grpouping in N for almost 20 years now, and I'm just about getting  there. It will probably take as long again to "get there" in OO.

My best advice for any keen pre-grouper in N is don't start out saying "this is the system I want to model ... now where can I get the kit?" Look through the other end of the telescope. Buy what you see, when you see it ... then sit back and survey what you have and say "how can I use this?". You may end up having to create an implausible "might-have-been" to justify putting Great Central, North British and Great Northern all in the same location; or perhaps you can "tweak" reality a bit to say that the locos loaned to the Highland in 1915 just happened to be the ones you've actually managed to get. Or maybe you just have to go down the "what if THIS had been the selection of locos the Bluebell had maged to get their hands on in the 70s?" route. Be bold ... be imaginative ... be creative. But above all, don't despair! As I say, the models ARE out there ...

[Train Waiting]

Further to @PGN 's helpful and interesting post, there are several other Union Mills classes suitable for pre-Grouping layouts after repainting.  For example, there are four from the NER and one from the GN.  In certain instances, one might have to overlook post-Grouping modifications such as the 'flowerpot' chimney on the 'Pom-Pom' - or, of course, make the necessary 'un-modifications'.

The 'pre-Grouping' period was a long one, from the days of railways like the Kilmarnock & Troon and the Stockton & Darlington, to after January 1923 for late-comers like the Caledonian or railways which were not included such as the Metropolitan and some joint railways, most notably the Somerset & Dorset (Union Mills made two engines in S&DJR livery) and Midland & Great Northern.  If one is modelling the late pre-Grouping period, the LSWR has three potential Union Mills locomotives as the '700' class 0-6-0 and the 'T9' 4-4-0 are possible.  The rebuilding of these classes, with superheated boilers, by Mr Urie commenced in 1921 and 1922 respectively.  The other LSWR engine is the lovely old Adams 0-6-0 that @Dorsetmike illustrated in his excellent post.

The present day Graham Farish make/made a '4F' in Midland livery.  There is one in my loft as part of a set with three Great War tanks on wagons!

With all good wishes

John 

[GAD]

There are a (very) few exceptions sold.
However, I too would love to model pre-grouping era. I suspect the issue is that the manufacturer would have dozens of companies, many of whom built or ordered in, their own unique classes of locos and rolling stock. The market sadly would be very limited for each product, whereas a Grouping era loco which possibly lasted into BR days, or originated pre-grouping, or both, can be tooled once and offered in more than one era's livery.

It's a shame as a model of the ECML pre-grouping would offer GNR + NER or NER + North British locos and stock on a single model, prototypically. Similarly the WCML would offer LNWR, MR and Caley. 

[chrism]

Similarly the WCML would offer LNWR, MR and Caley.

And FR at Carnforth

[PGN]

Well of course, if you could figure out a way to model Carlisle Citadel (I'm still working on THAT one!) you could have LNWR, MR, NER, NBR, CR, G&SWR and of course the Maryport & Carlisle all represented. And there are one or two locations in south Wales where four or even five different companies worked into the same station.

Then there's the Cheshire Lines Committee ... jointly owned by the MR, GCR and GNR, with its own rolling stock but it hired in its own motive power from the GCR. But for through trains to the MR and GNR systems, those companies generally provided the motive power.

Peterborough has quite an exciting mix of companies, too.

As I said, it's certainly do-able. The approaches to Bournemouth, with LSWR and S&DJR trains running over the same metals is another very practicable proposition; as is the southern approach to Guildford where LSWR, SECR and LBSCR all ran their trains over the same metals. You might need to use a bit of modellers' licence to spice up the LBSC workings, though.

The Eastern approaches to Reading is another nice candidate ... GWR and SECR. A pair of the N class moguls were rostered for the Reading duties, and with the Dean Goods and the City of Truro and a number of nice kits out there (28xx 2-8-0 and 43xx 2-6-0 plus, of course, the conversion kit for back-dating the Farish "Hall") you can have quite a nice variety of GWR motive power.

Or you could say "hang it all ... I'm going REALLY early" and build a Liverpool & Manchester layout using 3D prints from Newman Miniatures. Rudi offers about 7 different L&M locomotive types (all intended to be free-wheeling and driven by a powered vehicle in the train) and a variety of rolling stock.

And John is absolutely right ... there's a lot more locomotive types out there than the few I mentioned in my post. If people would find it helpful, I can dig out my full locomotive tables that I compiled for the Journal articles back in 2009 and re-post them here. They need a little up-dating to cover the most recent offerings, but that shouldn't be too difficult to do.

Ooooohhh ... and a word of caution about the Dapol terrier "Stepney". This is an A1X not an A1. It only ran as an A1X in Stroudley's improved engine green livery in preservation on the Bluebell Railway. By the time the A1s were being converted, Mr Marsh was in charge, so any LBSCR A1X whould be in Marsh umber livery (which Dapol did finally produce ... although not until I had repainted one myself. Fortunately they chose a different running number ... )

[JanW]

I think that the time has come that steam era modellers become more interested in the pre grouping companies.
As has been said earlier a lot of current modellers of the transition period have memories of the railways in those days.
But as time passes by less modellers have memories of steam in normal use.
And if someone starts modelling without having seen steam operation in real life the pre grouping period is much more interesting with shining locos and coaches in elaborate liveries.

It would be nice if more pre grouping models were released!

Jan

[PGN]

Jan ... that was PRECISELY my premise when I decided to "go pre-grouping" 15 - 20 years back, and founded the Era 1 & 2 Group of the NGS.

[icairns]

In addition to my post #18 above, I forgot to mention that there are now a large number of pre-grouping locos and rolling stock available as 3D prints.  For example, the Shapeways shop of Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) includes many 3D prints of pre-grouping designs.

Ian

[joe cassidy]

In OO gauge, Hornby have 2 pre-grouping train sets in their 2023 announcements.

[GlenEglise]

In addition to my post #18 above, I forgot to mention that there are now a large number of pre-grouping locos and rolling stock available as 3D prints.  For example, the Shapeways shop of Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) includes many 3D prints of pre-grouping designs.

Ian

Unfortunately Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) does not advise suitable chassis for his bodies. I also suspect that in many cases the bodies are to scale and therefore may not fit commercially available chassis.

He does have a comment on most of his products more or less to that effect.

GE

[thebrighton]

Unfortunately Recreation21 (Rue-d'Etropal) does not advise suitable chassis for his bodies. I also suspect that in many cases the bodies are to scale and therefore may not fit commercially available chassis.

He does have a comment on most of his products more or less to that effect.

That's because they are designed for larger scales with scratch built chassis but he shrinks them down to give 'N' modellers a starting point. As for scale he reduces them to 1:148 and/or 1:152 so that is not an issue. However in some cases splashers can make things a tight squeeze for some of the the wider treaded 'N' gauge wheels.
View them as a scratch aid requiring a modified or scratch built chassis.

[Dorsetmike]

Just had a count up of my pre-grouping locos, 19 of 12 classes ex LSWR  plus 2 ex LBSC, not sure about LMS classes I have UM 2P & 3F and Farish 4F.
RTR classes UM T9, 700 & 0395, Dapol M7, Terrier, kits BHE N15, Langley S15 and E4, Peco B4, NBrass G6; scratch built A12 and K10; a bit of kit bashing and mix 'n match with the BHE and Langley kits.

SR Maunsell classes RTR Dapol Schools, Farish N, kits Gem Z class; hacks x2 Jubilees to Lord Nelson, 4F to Q