why aren't there more pre grouping locos available in N?

[jc_92]

Hi all,

This isn't intended as some sort of entitled rant or complaint, more just a genuine question for someone out of the loop for the last 10 years.

Why is it that N gauge has missed out quite a few of the recent 00 offerings on pre grouping locos, for example, Bachmann have produced a director, L&Y class 5, Johnson 1P and compound in 00, but we've never received an equivalent in N gauge. the pre grouping locos that are available are ones which survived well into the late 50s and 60s in large numbers, for instance terriers

Is there a lack of interest for earlier locos in N? Are manufacturers not committed to them? or other reasons. I used to think it was the former, but we've seen an uptake on older classes in 00 now.

cheers

Joe

[Gordon]

Because it was long long ago...

I'm coming up 63 and was born 37 years after the grouping...

[Ensign Elliott]

We're still waiting for some of the more popular BR era steam locos to be released / updated such as Kings and Counties.

[martyn]

I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.

I also think that later they said that they could apply a shrink ray to 4mm models and would make N gauge versions. But this has only occasionally happened. It's not just pre grouping locos that haven't been from 4mm versions, but a number of grouping and BR designs:eg the K3 and various DMUs. Much this has been discussed on other threads.

So it would seem that's Bachmann's business plan.

Martyn

[chrism]

I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.

The Crab did get a slight makeover, with better wheels than the old Poole ones at least.

[thebrighton]

In 'OO' a large number of the most common loco classes are already available RTR possibly due to the amount of manufacturers producing models. As a result they are now having to look at other revenue streams so pre grouping locos appears to be the option. 'OO' is also popular amongst collectors who may well like a 'quaint', older loco in a colourful livery.
In 'N' there are fewer manufacturers and a smaller collectors market whilst there are still large gaps amongst the more common grouping locos. Coupled to that the 'N' market is much smaller than 'OO' so manufacturers may well be more risk adverse when it comes to more niche models.
I model pre grouping in the south so can't complain with the LBSCR Terrier, SECR N and C Class and SECR coaches with wagons just around the corner.
Just my view on things.

[martyn]

I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.

The Crab did get a slight makeover, with better wheels than the old Poole ones at least.

Forgot the new wheelsets, I was thinking more along the lines of replacement model.

Humbly apologetic.

Martyn

[chrism]

I think that when Bachmann took over Farish, they said they would upgrade much of the former Poole range, and add new models. One example they didn't do was the Crab, another the 2P. Many other Poole era models were duly refurbished and/or replaced by new versions.

The Crab did get a slight makeover, with better wheels than the old Poole ones at least.

Forgot the new wheelsets, I was thinking more along the lines of replacement model.

Humbly apologetic.

No apology necessary - I don't think it got much more than the wheels and a new livery.

[Dorsetmike]

I've said it a few times before, why no Southern 4-6-0s? Southern don't do too well with other classes, Dapol Terrier,  M7 and Schools, Farish N, C, UM T9, 700, 0395; 8 classes total.
I don't count Bulleid's spam cans or Q1 - I model mid 1930s.

[Newportnobby]

Is there a lack of interest for earlier locos in N? Are manufacturers not committed to them? or other reasons. I used to think it was the former, but we've seen an uptake on older classes in 00 now.

Given the generally accepted assumption N is 20% of the 00 market then manufacturers have a much larger target audience in 00 with more manufacturers/commissions.
It's only a personal opinion but I believe Bachmann have lost interest in N lately

[JimSan]

As a poster above notes its what people remember so as we move forward in time less and less obscure models are remembered by people still alive which makes producing them not cost effective

I'd say it's more on the lines of people model what they like, it just so happens to be what they remember is often what they like, for example I'm mid-30s and have no memory of steam outside of heritage lines, but I wouldn't model anything modern since I find them generally dull, closest I'd do is NSE since I just happen to like the livery and it's something from my area.

But my favourite loco happens to be a LSWR A12 since again it happens to be local to where I live and I like the look of it, but since the manufacturers don't want to make it, will just make it myself.

[Bealman]

Interesting discussion. I also find it interesting that if you look at RM magazines from the fifties/sixties, many layouts are GW, LNER, LMS or Southern.

These days, RM is full of BR transition layouts. It's a nostalgia thing, I reckon. The modellers of the fifties/sixties modelled those eras because they are what they remembered from their youth.

I model transition, why? Because it's what I remember as a kid.

[RapierPower]

I think anyone who allows a little bit of 'Rule 1' often falls for the pretty pre-grouping types as they're usually very attractive. It's probably these liveries which make a pre-grouping model viable, rather than the later grouping and BR potential of that same model, I seem to remember the SECR C class selling out long before the SR and BR models. Farish could have made less of those of course, we just don't know. The problem with rule 1 is I think most people usually only have one of each thing so once you've got your pretty SECR C class, you probably won't buy another unless you're trying to model the SECR that is, when multiple may well be needed, but I think such people must be few and far between, especially in N.

When it comes to making their OO models in N, Bachmann must have the advantage of sales figures from the OO models, if a model didn't sell well in OO then any sensible business would think very carefully about making the same thing again, but for a much smaller market. Regardless of what the old management may have said a decade or more ago about shrinking down every OO model to N (I wonder if anyone from Bachmann actually said that, or if a conversation was taken the wrong way and then the myth has stuck around?!). Regardless, I'd rather see Bachmann continue to prosper than struggle because they make lots of models which aren't really viable just to keep the promise someone (who may well not be involved with the company anymore due to retirement/departure) made many years ago.

As to Bachmann's interest in N, whilst it's the total opposite of a pre-group loco, why would they spend thousands on a new Class 90 if they weren't interested in N, that must have been a six figure investment at-least?

I guess there will be some new announcements in a few weeks, maybe that will give us a clue about their interest in N? All we know for sure is whatever they announce, it will never be enough for some!

[pinball]

Interesting discussion. I also find it interesting that if you look at RM magazines from the fifties/sixties, many layouts are GW, LNER, LMS or Southern.

These days, RM is full of BR transition layouts. It's a nostalgia thing, I reckon. The modellers of the fifties/sixties modelled those eras because they are what they remembered from their youth.

I model transition, why? Because it's what I remember as a kid.

I agree. BR blue is what I remember as a lad, hence where most of my interests lie. I find the steam / diesel transition era fascinating to research and if I had infinite cash would love to model more of it, but it is before my time.

I expect for the same reason we will see an increased interest in Virgin 47s, Midland Mainline HSTs, Northern Spirit 156s, EWS 58s, South West Trains 159s or whatnot as those who were kids during initial privatisation remeber those trains with the same fondness are now heading towards their mid 30s. Indeed it is now quite strange to work alongside those on the railway who weren't even born when voyagers were introduced! Although I suspect the drivers who worked on steam probably thought the same when I started - "drivers these days, never fired train in their life - playing at trains on their HSTs - don't know they're born!".

[martyn]

Much the same as others, when I started in N in the mid 70, I modelled what I remembered as a child-the very last of East Anglian steam, and the changeover to green diesels.

Having started, I continued with this theme, as to change all my accumulated stock for more up to date liveried stock would have cost too much when I didn't have a lot of disposable income. Now, inertia with a large collection means I still model transition period.

Had I been starting now, I don't know what I'd have done, as East Anglia is now ruled by multiple units on passenger duties, many of which are unobtainable RTR. Freight is not quite so bad.

I may well have ended up modelling late blue/grey and early sectorisation.

With reference to Bealman, I think what he's said is true; when I started, it seemed that almost every other layout was GWR themed, possibly because of chicken and egg with stock availability. This was the case in OO as well as N. I think I read in a magazine at the time that people do tend to model what they say as a child, which, at that time, would have been late Grouping/early BR; this was reflected in the layouts of the day.

But one of the magazine editors told us a year or three ago that a good steam layout on the front cover gets more casual sales than one with diesels or electrics on it.

Martyn