Plausible or not?

[Newportnobby]

Having purchased 3 MK1 sleeper carriages thoughts have turned to how a sleeper train could be seen in Oxfordshire. My proposed scenario is this:
In the early 1960s a sleeper train ran from Glasgow to the south coast (Bournemouth maybe) with the usual route being south from Glasgow to Birmingham, down to Bristol and thence via the S & D to Bournemouth, However, the massive refurb of New Street station pushed the train further south to Bletchley, across to Oxford and thence down to Bournemouth. Loco would have been LMR to Oxford and then SR to Bournemouth, with the proposed train formation being:-

BG-CK-RU-SLF-SLSTP-SLSTP-CK-BCK (I sneaked a look on RMWeb = sorry)

I know restaurant cars were not often seen on sleeper trains but I want my passengers to have a decent breakfast!

What percentage plausibility do you give this please?

[Bealman]

Zero% or maybe 100%? 

[crewearpley40]

I like the idea its rule 1, mick 's layout, the sleepers I know on bournemouth poole services ran via wcml, wembley, Kensington Olympia, clapham, routes via Sw mainline eg the winchester , Southampton direction. This could be a diverted service if engineering work as you say via bletchley, oxford, reading, winchester or via oxford towards bristol. The rake is pretty standard

[Roy L S]

Hi Mick

I think fairly plausible. For example during the decimation sorry...modernisation of Euston, sleepers were diverted into Marylebone, so whose to say they couldn't have also on occasion run along the GC to Woodford/Banbury and through Oxford into Paddington?

Roy

[NGS-PO]

There was a sleeper/motorail train that ran from St Enoch to Newhaven for a channel ferry.  I'm afraid I don't know the route off hand, and I don't know the area you model off hand, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.

I'm not convinced they'd have time for Breakfast, but perhaps an RMB might be more suitable? or a bar car, such as the Hadrian Bar pullman carriage.


Best

Scott.

[crewearpley40]

Here you go... https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/64/958/   I'm sure the route may have been glasgow via Dumfries to carlisle, west coast, Wolverhampton, follow the old gw Wolverhampton/ birkenhead via snow hill, leamington, banbury

[NGS-PO]

Yes, being out of St Enoch, it would definitely go via the GSW route to Carlisle.

I have the carriage marshalling document for 1964 and the consist was:

BSK, SLSTP, SLSTP, SLSTP, CCT(x12), BY

Best

Scott

[Capri_sam]

I'd say this was pretty plausible, there was a 3x weekly Glasgow to Newhaven car sleeper - I've actually modelled it myself after getting a good deal on some sleepers and then trying to work out what to do with them!

Formation I use is 1xBrake Composite, 3x sleepers, 8x assortment of MK1 GUV, MK1 CCT and ex-SR CCT, and a passenger brake at the end; I've used a Maunsell one but that was because I had one. Add or remove CCTs as you see fit.

It was due to arrive at Eastbourne at around 8am. Which I know because one crashed in 1958.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastbourne_rail_crash

Tragic though it is, accident reports from the time do give the approximate formation, which is useful. Normal motive power appears to be a 5MT or a Peak.

[emjaybee]

As we've often seen around here, anything is, and usually was possible. I'm sure that Karhedron will be along shortly with a picture proving your hypothesis.

[Paddy]

Hi @Newportnobby

Looks good to me and it is your railway!

Thought the following Cyril Freezer information on train formations from Model Railway Operation in Accordance with Prototype Practice might be of interest to people.

Passenger

*  Loco Hauled Trains
    *  Long Distance Express Train
        *  Principal (Named) Train - superior stock
        *  Semi Fast - bulk of services and usual includes intermediate stops
    *  Short Distance Local/Commuter Train
        *  Local/Commuter Train - stops at most/all stations
        *  Cross Country Local Train
        *  Push/Pull Trains
    *  In model form, adding a strengthening coach can help to emulate disperate passenger services
        *  For example: if the layout can handle five coaches, a basic/core set of (Loco is to the left):

Vehicle 1      Vehicle 2      Vehicle 3      Vehicle 4      Vehicle 5      Train Type
Second         Second         First          Brake Second   N/A            Cross Country Local/Intermediate Service
Second         Second         Rest./Buffet   First          Brake Second   Express Passenger
Second         Second         First          Sleeper        Brake Second   Overnight Long-Distance
Second         Second         First          Brake Second   Parcel Van     Parcels/Newspaper
Royal Mail     Second         Second         First          Brake Second   Mail/Postal Service

*  Multiple Unit Trains
*  Mixed Passenger/Freight were treated as passenger trains although rare outside of branch lines

Freight

*  Long Distance Freight - entire train loads between marshelling/concentration yards
*  Local Goods/Pick-Up Goods
*  Trip/Transfer Working - blocks/mixed of wagons taken from customer to marshelling yard
    *  Colliery, Steelworks, Factory etc.
*  Coal wagons were not used for any other form of freight
*  Railway companies had their own coal wagons labelled LOCO to supply depots
*  General merchandise was carried in covered and open wagons
*  Various special wagons such as Cattle wagons although this reduced from the 1950s onwards

Hope this helps.

Kind regards

Paddy

[Newportnobby]

Zero% or maybe 100%? 

Most helpful, George

its rule 1

We hates Rule 1, don't we, precioussss

Hi Mick

I think fairly plausible. For example during the decimation sorry...modernisation of Euston, sleepers were diverted into Marylebone, so whose to say they couldn't have also on occasion run along the GC to Woodford/Banbury and through Oxford into Paddington?

Roy

A bit long winded way to get to the south coast, though, Roy. I like the idea of a loco change at Oxford from maybe a Scot or Jubilee to a Bulleid.

There was a sleeper/motorail train that ran from St Enoch to Newhaven for a channel ferry.
I'm not convinced they'd have time for Breakfast, but perhaps an RMB might be suitable

Thanks, Scott. I'd be happy with an RMB.

Here you go... https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/64/958/   I'm sure the route may have been glasgow via Dumfries to carlisle, west coast, Wolverhampton, follow the old gw Wolverhampton/ birkenhead via snow hill, leamington, banbury

Thanks, Chris.

I have the carriage marshalling document for 1964 and the consist was:
BSK, SLSTP, SLSTP, SLSTP, CCT(x12), BY

Blimey - that's heavy on luggage! (I assume BY is a typo for a BG)

Formation I use is 1xBrake Composite, 3x sleepers, 8x assortment of MK1 GUV, MK1 CCT and ex-SR CCT, and a passenger brake at the end; I've used a Maunsell one but that was because I had one. Add or remove CCTs as you see fit.
Normal motive power appears to be a 5MT or a Peak.

Same comment about luggage, Sam. Although I have some Peaks I might prefer a class 40 to Oxford maybe

Thanks emjaybee and Paddy. I'd appreciate Matt's @Karhedron input if he can get the stopper off his bottle

[Steven B]

Some Glasgow <-> St Pancras workings from 1960:
SLSTP SLF BSK SK CK SK BSK
SLSTP SLF BG SLF SLF SLSTP CK SK SK SK BSK SK
BG BG SLF SLF SLSTP CK SK BSK BG
BSK SK SK CK CK SK SK SK BSK SLF SLSTP BG
BG BG BSK SK SK SK CK SLSTP SLF SLF BG BG

Note the distinct lack of catering vehicles and all first class vehicles except for the Sleeper Firsts (SLF).
Your formation: BG-CK-RU-SLF-SLSTP-SLSTP-CK-BCK
looks reasonably plausable. BR(M) didn't have many BCKs, although this could be using stock from BR(S) who did. I'd replace one of your CK with an SK and move all seated accomodation to one end of the train:
BG-SLF-SLSTP-SLSTP-SK/CK-RU-CK-BCK

Note that at this period, pre-Mk1 coaches would still be common. Several of the formations listed above would have used pre-BR stock for everything except the sleeping cars.

Steven B.

[Newportnobby]

Note the distinct lack of catering vehicles and all first class vehicles except for the Sleeper Firsts (SLF).

Thanks for that, Steven. The journey I'm suggesting is a lot longer than Glasgow - St.Pancras and I can only speak for myself but when I rise in the morning a coffee and breakfast is high on my priority list!!

From all the above it looks like, contrary to the opinion of many, I'm not completely delusional

[NGS-PO]

I have the carriage marshalling document for 1964 and the consist was:
BSK, SLSTP, SLSTP, SLSTP, CCT(x12), BY

Blimey - that's heavy on luggage! (I assume BY is a typo for a BG)

The CCTs conveyed the motor cars.  No typo, BY is a class of van. Here's an example:  https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/419.html

I have an N gauge one in my collection.  Dapol, 2P-012-501

best

Scott

[crewearpley40]

Thought you might like the photo mick