Are exhibitions making our hobby elitist

[PLD]

No. Elitists are making our hobby elitist, the rest of the majority are just getting on with it, playing trains, having fun, and as Jon touched on above any exhibition worth attending will have enough of a variety to please everybody

Paul

I'll go along with that, but also add that there is an equally small minority at the other end of the scale - a kind of anti-progressive "inverted snobbery".

The hobby is a broad one and public exhibitions sometimes sit awkwardly across the line between entertainment and education. There is room for both.

As to the specific point of the OP, there needs to be some tolerance from the strict adherence to exacting standards, but equally there ought to be a lower threshold for a publicly exhibited layout - dumbing-down is not to be encouraged either...

When selecting layouts for exhibitions, the first priority is always does it work? and do the operators strive to keep it running. (the example above with the clock would be straight in the rejects pile as would the one where nothing ever escapes from the fiddleyard).
The overall presentation comes next. Modelling standards form part of that, but "consistently average" will out score "good in parts".
Historical exactitude is well down the list. Yes we may knock of points for the EWS 66 hauling pre-nationalisation private owner wagons, but most won't quibble at a little flexing of time, or a fence being a tone to dark in colour. (and the appearance of a certain blue tank engine if a group of kids are watching scores bonus points for interacting with and understanding your audience!)

[bridgiesimon]

I think that the bottom line is that as long as the majority of the exhibitors, the organisers and the public have enjoyed the show, then it must have been successful irrespective of whether the standard is seen to be 'dumbing down' or 'exceptionally high'. It is a hobby and we should be enjoying it - though there are many times when I get a little frustrated and wonder why I am trying at all!!

best wishes
Simon

[Sprintex]

I don't think lower standard models would do the hobby a dis-service as long as it is the right time and place, say  TINGS is a good example that is to show case the best of the hobby where people are looking for the perfect rakes and the 100% accurate scenes and the like.

Funnily enough it was TINGS where the aforementioned "brightly coloured random plastic trains" layout was seen, much to the delight of many a child who found the slow-moving drab stuff too boring, and some much needed light relief. Remember these are the "next generation" people keep banging on about on here so if you can get them interested somehow they can learn all the 'correct' stuff later if they so wish


Paul

[Irish Padre]

It's about attitude really, isn't it? If the exhibitors show infectious enthusiasm for what they're doing, then that will rub off on the audience and be inspiring rather than off-putting. Excellence and elitism don't always have to go together!

[oreamnos]

There was a commentary on this topic in a very recent issue of Railway Modeller.  The gist of it was if the public was paying a fee to attend an exhibition, they expected to be entertained, and the exhibitors should be ashamed of themselves if they weren't providing that entertainment.  I agreed completely with the article.

I've participated in now more than a few exhibitions here in California with the club I belong to and to put it simply - NO club is invited to participate to any exhibition unless they run trains at all times.  Full stop.

The exhibition scene is perhaps a little different here in the States since it is 100% dominated by largely free-lance N-trak modular layouts.  My club's smallest set up is 12' x 36' and we prefer to be at least 16' x 40.'  Certainly specific N-trak modules may accurately model prototypical location, but the accuracy is limited to that one module.  I have never seen at a U.S. exhibition a layout that was entirely prototype-accurate, or run to a operating schedule.  Why?  Because the exhibition organizers don't invite such layouts to participate.  And with so few shows going on here now, if your club wants to get invited, your club darn well better provide the entertainment the exhibition organizers demand.

Our layout has a three track mainline.  We run different era stock on each line all at the same time, all the time.  I run UK outline, my clubmates run US, though sometimes we run Continental stock, again, all at the same time.  Yes, we do run accurate rakes most of the time.  But one of our members also runs 60 different cabooses in the liveries of different railroads behind a UP DD40AX "Centennial" and puts a boxcar on the back to see how many in the crowd get the joke.  And of course we also run Tomix "Thomas" stock.  The kids love it.  They also love standing there trying to count a long rake of wagons or coaches, too.  And the members of our club love it when the public loves us.

I'm not against nice scenery and well done details.  Indeed, the club I belong to is very careful to model to a high standard.  While I appreciate that a prototypically accurate layout or operation can be educational to the public and I also acknowledge that the public does appreciate seeing sights and landmarks on a layout that they can recognize from "real-life," stressing accuracy at an exhibition is simply wrong for the 95% of the paying public.  They really just want to see a lot of different trains hauled by a lot of different types of locomotives through realistic looking scenery and they want to be able to talk to club members about the trains and the layout.

I actually have a strong opinion about this subject and I was really quite appalled when I read the article in RM.  If layout exhibitors don't understand that when they attend an exhibition their participation it is not for their benefit but instead for the benefit of the paying public, then they should not be invited to show their layouts at exhibitions.  Let them stay home with their precious museum standard layouts and count rivets.

Matt

[Graham Walters]

There was a commentary on this topic in a very recent issue of Railway Modeller.  The gist of it was if the public was paying a fee to attend an exhibition, they expected to be entertained, and the exhibitors should be ashamed of themselves if they weren't providing that entertainment.  I agreed completely with the article.

I've participated in now more than a few exhibitions here in California with the club I belong to and to put it simply - NO club is invited to participate to any exhibition unless they run trains at all times.  Full stop.

The exhibition scene is perhaps a little different here in the States since it is 100% dominated by largely free-lance N-trak modular layouts.  My club's smallest set up is 12' x 36' and we prefer to be at least 16' x 40.'  Certainly specific N-trak modules may accurately model prototypical location, but the accuracy is limited to that one module.  I have never seen at a U.S. exhibition a layout that was entirely prototype-accurate, or run to a operating schedule.  Why?  Because the exhibition organizers don't invite such layouts to participate.  And with so few shows going on here now, if your club wants to get invited, your club darn well better provide the entertainment the exhibition organizers demand.

Our layout has a three track mainline.  We run different era stock on each line all at the same time, all the time.  I run UK outline, my clubmates run US, though sometimes we run Continental stock, again, all at the same time.  Yes, we do run accurate rakes most of the time.  But one of our members also runs 60 different cabooses in the liveries of different railroads behind a UP DD40AX "Centennial" and puts a boxcar on the back to see how many in the crowd get the joke.  And of course we also run Tomix "Thomas" stock.  The kids love it.  They also love standing there trying to count a long rake of wagons or coaches, too.  And the members of our club love it when the public loves us.

I'm not against nice scenery and well done details.  Indeed, the club I belong to is very careful to model to a high standard.  While I appreciate that a prototypically accurate layout or operation can be educational to the public and I also acknowledge that the public does appreciate seeing sights and landmarks on a layout that they can recognize from "real-life," stressing accuracy at an exhibition is simply wrong for the 95% of the paying public.  They really just want to see a lot of different trains hauled by a lot of different types of locomotives through realistic looking scenery and they want to be able to talk to club members about the trains and the layout.

I actually have a strong opinion about this subject and I was really quite appalled when I read the article in RM.  If layout exhibitors don't understand that when they attend an exhibition their participation it is not for their benefit but instead for the benefit of the paying public, then they should not be invited to show their layouts at exhibitions.  Let them stay home with their precious museum standard layouts and count rivets.

Matt

This post just about sums up my feelings about exhibitions in the UK, from those that I have visited, and it is quite a few in the last twelve months, I have got the feeling that it is all too serious, and the competitive edge has taken over from the fun element.
My impression is that exhibitors are too keen on looking for ways to be different with the misconception that it is better.

We don't have the space for the size layouts you speak of, so I suppose there has to be a pay off for that, that pay off seems to be to make the layout look as prototypical as possible, and to cram as much as you can onto that 15' x 3' board.

As in my OP, I don't believe DCC has helped that much, while there are some out there who can afford it, they don't necessarily know how to use it to it's best advantage.

[paulprice]

I read the views on this topic, and there are some really good points raised, however I thought I would share my thoughts on the topic (what little there are  )

I an a member of a model club, and I will not mention which one it is, but I can honestly say although there are like at every club a great range of modellers with different skills and interests the overriding influence is that we all believe that "FUN" is a vital part of modelling. If we did not find it fun we would not do it, and for most of us the thing that attracted us to the hobby was that some part of it seemed "FUN".

For my part I have a layout I have ben building independently from the club, which was designed to be portable, so it did not take up a valuable bedroom permanently and was to deploy new construction methods for me.

Luckily I have had a couple of exhibition invites, and there are a couple in the very near future, but when we attend them, the operators always make sure something is running and some of the trains can be seen as fun or at least interesting, This is helped by having an operator who has not real interest in actual railways but is very good at saying what is boring or interesting in layouts. This I feel is vital as something a die hard LMS fan might find interesting is probably boring or even invisible to non fans, or your average exhibition visitor. We even let them have an influence in the type of train run, as this usually results in one of the most popular trains being formed at a show.

My attitude is that I want people to see what can be done on an average budget by an average modeller and if I can do it anyone can, we even let some of the visitors both young and old to have a go from time to time at the controls, but we may have to stop this as it just shows how bad the operators (mostly me) are

[Bealman]

Here at the Antipodes, exhibitions tend to be far apart both chronologically and geographically!

I am always staggered by the number of UK exhibitions I see advertised in mags and even on this forum. In a way you are spoiled for choice over there and are able to have this (very interesting) discussion about layout and exhibition standards. 

[Kris]

but a lot of the time nothing was happening.

There's the problem, not the detail. If nothing runs most people, particularly children, will loose interest very quickly. Movement does not have to mean full throttle either.
A maximum time of 15 - 20 seconds between something moving (in the visible area) should be a target at an exhibition.

When it comes to detail, you will never please everyone. I have seen layouts that, to my eyes, were so far from exhibition standard that they looked out of place. These layouts were obviously however the pride and joy of their owners and were entertaining some people and as such they did deserve a place at the exhibition. At the other end of the spectrum, when exhibiting my previous layout, I have been told that the bark on the trees was the wrong colour for the species (apparently it was slightly too grey) and that this spoilt the layout.   

[queensquare]

I will probably be shot down in flames here but I would have to disagree with a lot of the comments made in this thread. I simply don't get the race to the bottom and I really don't like the phrase elitist or particularly rivet counter, as it is almost always used in a derogatory fashion.
When I go to an exhibition either as a visitor or exhibitor I want to be inspired by what I see and what other modellers have made, Im not really interested in watching stuff that has simply been taken out of the box charging round and round in circles.
As modellers we often bemoan the very negative way in which the hobby is represented in the media - anaraks, grown men and women playing with trains etc. if I were new to the hobby and came to a show I'm afraid a load of brightly coloured plastic things thrown at a board would simply reinforce that view, not encourage me to take up the hobby as a serious craft based pastime.
I do think there is room at any well balanced show for more entry level exhibits but they should be in the minority, the majority of exhibits should be aspirational, showing the hobby off at its best. Children are indeed the next generation of modellers but not for a long time. As someone who makes a living building and writing about models I can assure you that the vast majority of modellers enter/return to the hobby in their thirties and forties, not tens and teens.
Finally, the old chestnut of constant movement. Whilst I agree that nothing leaving the fiddle yard whilst the operators have a jolly round the back of the layout is bad for the hobby, I don't necessarily feel the need to have something moving all the time. Railway modelling at its best is about more than just the trains but about capturing the complete scene, particularly in N/2mm which lends itself to the railway in the landscape. A minute or so between movements on occasions is, in my opinion, no bad thing. It gives the viewer time to take in the rest of the scene and creates a sense of anticipation about what might happen next. I have had spectators, from toddlers to octogenarians, remain in front of the layout for  long spells engrossed in the scene. There is always little Johnny, (of any age) who has the attention span of a Knat who glances at the layout for a few seconds before scuttling off but I didn't build the layout for them so I don't mind that.
We exhibit about eight times a year and thoroughly enjoy it. We could do at least double that and turn down more invites than we accept. We are currently taking bookings for 2018 so we must be doing something right.
This is a wonderful hobby and a very broad church so there is room for all schools of thought.

Jerry

[paulprice]

but a lot of the time nothing was happening.

There's the problem, not the detail. If nothing runs most people, particularly children, will loose interest very quickly. Movement does not have to mean full throttle either.
A maximum time of 15 - 20 seconds between something moving (in the visible area) should be a target at an exhibition.

When it comes to detail, you will never please everyone. I have seen layouts that, to my eyes, were so far from exhibition standard that they looked out of place. These layouts were obviously however the pride and joy of their owners and were entertaining some people and as such they did deserve a place at the exhibition. At the other end of the spectrum, when exhibiting my previous layout, I have been told that the bark on the trees was the wrong colour for the species (apparently it was slightly too grey) and that this spoilt the layout.

Tell me about it, at my first exhibition with my current layout, I had two detractors with a similar attitude, one who told me that one on my weathered Jubilees were never dirty in real life despite the fact I happened to have photographic evidence with me, then when shown this then decided that evidence was from an inferior source.

Another chap then decided to tell me that the Cows on my layout (being brown and white) where the wrong colour and that it was pathetic when people do "stupid" errors like this, when everyone knew that cows where only "black and White", and being nearly 55 years of age he had seen many cows to prove his point. I then had to point out that my layout is set prior to 1948, and that the "black and white" breed of cows was not that common in the area until much later.

The Silly Sausage lol 

[MikeDunn]

Jerry,

It sounds (at the start) like you expect the layouts to be akin to museum exhibits ...

While I do enjoy a well-made layout, seeing nothing running on it brings me to boredom in seconds, regardless how wonderful it is ...  I am paying to see trains running on layouts, not for a static display; being told that an operator is running 3 trains an hour makes me baffled at how anally-retentive they are !

I don't expect to have at least 5 trains running around simultaneously at ridiculous speeds - but neither do I expect nothing to happen for 20 minutes except the "operators" sitting down in a gaggle, gossiping & ignoring the paying public !  If I wanted to see prototypical workings, I'd go down to the local station or railway line !  Instead, I want to see a layout being run - maybe just one train going through, slowly, but something happening ...  A minute between one leaving and a different one entering (either the same end or another entry point), yes that's OK - I can (generally) see the next one starting on the fiddle yard, and that anticipation keeps me there a while longer.

I see what you say about returning modellers - but you have to admit that if the kids today don't see something interesting now that in later years returns to them, the majority just won't be there in later years ...

Mike

[paulprice]

Chaps

This will probably put the kiss of death on it now, but come to the Warrington Exhibition in October, there will be many great layouts there and lots to see, they have even taken pity on my and asked Foster Street to attend.

I cant promise to keep everyone in attendance happy but with respect to my layout I can say, that although I use ready to run stock, I will have kitbuilt and scratchbuilt stock in operation, nothing is used straight out of the box, and I try to add a little colour to the trains.

One of my favourite things as a child at exhibitions was to count wagons as trains went past, and I can see this is still popular with younger, and older visitors alike, even if it does show I can't count from time to time.

You never know you may even see the Elephant train, which keeps me happy at least, and please feel free to ask the crew to run any train we have, BUT PLEASE DONT FEED THEM, it gets messy 

[Komata]

Graham Walter

It's an interesting. topic and thank you for raising it.  The responses so far have been both interesting and enlightening. Bealman has already given an Australian perspective and, FWIW, herewith those of a Kiwi who has the good fortune to be a frequent invited exhibitor at local MR exhibitions.

Based solely on this experience (gained over some 20-odd years) my answer would have to be that (at least in the various areas where my layouts appear,and yes, they do appear in different locations), elitism is the furthest thing from club members minds; there is simply no time or place to indulge in such 'frivolities'; 'the game's the thing'.

HOWEVER, I have observed that there are within MR clubs certain individuals who for their own reasons, like to believe that they are 'somewhat above' the rest.  This was epitomised (at least for me) by a member on one club (no names BTW) who was an electronics whizz-kid of above-average abilities (again, no names).  This person because of his 'exalted' status in the 'real' world, brought an 'attitude' into exhibitions (along with a beret and cape a la Pablo Picasso; I kid you not) that left all and sundry (including the paying public)  in no doubt at all as to how he viewed himself.  His closest companions were very definitely 'Me Myself and I'.  He lasted two exhibitions before 'moving on' no doubt to places and venues which appreciated him more than us 'mere mortals'.  He was definitely the more obvious (and vocal) of the species.

And for the other club members? Most are just average people (usually, but not always male BTW) who are there to have a good time and run their trains.  At least, that is the reason given However observation does seem to suggest that  for quite a few individuals ,(and possibly because they may not have home layouts, or space to run anything - especially in the larger scales such as O or the LGB variants), this may be the only time that they actually GET to operate their trains.  Because of this there is a definitely a tendency to forget that they are putting on a display to try and persuade the general public that model trains are actually a good thing.  The trains are all, and sadly, when 'faced' by a sea of backs (as the operators all crowd around their mechanical marvels, congratulating themselves on their abilities), the general public just walk away.  Unfortunately at many exhibitions they walk away repeatedly, again, and again, and again..

A fantastic chance at promotion of the hobby is thus  'sunk' because the operators were too full of their own self-interest. And as if that were not enough, (and even more frequently) the situation is usually one where operator chooses NOT to engage wit the viewer and instead does his own thing.  The 'ignored' enquirer eventually gets the message, again and again and ...

And in respect to 'running to prototype' in respect of times, consists and 'correctness'?  Putting it bluntly, the viewing public JUST DON'T CARE!!!

They have paid perfectly good (and usually hard-earned) money to come into a venue AND TO BE ENTERTAINED!!  They couldn't give a toss it the 1545 from Hogsnort Pavia is 35 seconds late or if the Flying Scotsman is hauled by a Terrier, , they WANT TO SEE TRAINS MOVING!  They simply don't care about al the other bits.

In essence the problem is that at exhibitions we forget that we have a tailor-made chance to persuade the 'outside world' that what we are doing is fun and worthwhile, or that as the hobby is being replaced by 10-minute soundbites, computer games and electronic gadgets in general, ITS THE ONLY CHANCE WE HAVE TO TRY AND CHANGE THINGS - especially to the youngsters; the ones on whom the future of the hobby ultimately depends!!

We HAVE to sell ourselves, co if we don't, Model railway s is gone - sunk by a sea of 'electronica'.

Sadly, most exhibitors don't even think of this or give it any mind; they are too busy either playing their own trains, or sitting and glowering at any member of the public who approaches.  Very rarely is there a welcome or an attempt to engage with the enquirer, yet we wonder why very few 'newbies' become involved.  Would YOU if you were repeatedly rebuffed?

'Suicide' takes many forms; the model railway hobby has its own unique means of doing so...

It IS definitely possible to involve the public and to 'invite them in' yet very few exhibitor do do.  Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I have found that by creating a form of interactive 'where's Wally' type 'game' (because that is all it is) when exhibiting my Six-Mile Bush layout (a layout appearing in this site's  gallery section BTW) we have everyone from toddlers to great grandparents involved, to the extend that it is usually most crowded layout in the hall, and the participants have a ball - they find things, they laugh, they talk, they ASK QUESTIONS and they go away WANTING to know more bout model trains. Why? because they have had a pleasurable experience and they have learnt as well.  The presentation is NOT 'N-scale scale specific' it's MODEL TRAINS  specific, adn that, to me is the point of the exercise; to get people interested in MODEL TRAINS, and if they go to the local toyshop and buy a 'Thomas' trainset  and take it home who cares?  At least they are becoming involved - and they might even like the experience!!

We also forget as exhibitors that we are, in such situations, ENTERTAINERS, and as such are no different from 'X' on Blackpool Pier or 'Y' at the local parish hall.  We are not there to run schedules, follow the rule book to the letter, or to argue about what colour a train's carriage set should be (or how many rivets there are on a tender). Upsetting and horrifying though it may be to some, at exhibitions, We are there to ENTERTAIN and for no other purpose!!  Accept that idea and use it to reach out and engage with the public, answering their questions, persuading them to at least enquire further, and as a hobby we win!!  Ignore, deride and generally 'turn away' the public and we die.

Sadly, the latter course is usually the one that is followed; yet we wonder why no-one is interested in what we do.

Would YOU be so-inclined if you were repeatedly rebuffed and/ or ignored?  As already noted, most of the viewing public just walk away - it's simply not worth the hassle...

As previously noted, 'Suicide' takes many forms; the model railway hobby has its own unique means of doing so...

Trusting that this has been of interest.

[Calnefoxile]

I think that as 'we' modellers get more and more experienced our outlook changes. When 'we' first started in the hobby, what were our expectations???

I, for one, just wanted to have somewhere to run the stock I had purchased, I knew what stock I wanted and in which era, for me it's BR Blue circa 1975-1985, and so I started to pick up the relevant stock for that era. Also, I sought out any layouts at exhibitions that were in 'my era' to the detriment of anything else, so sorry Jerry even your fabulous layouts would not have interested me back then. But now after quite a few years, I appreciate a good layout be it an S&D layout or Ultra modern. Also, I now find I'm looking at layouts with a more critical eye, and yes that does include the odd "Well that loco never ran with that stock".

So I have to thank Graham for starting this thread as I think it's bought me back down to earth with a bit of a bump, as it's made me realise that maybe I'm becoming one of those 'elitist rivet counters' without even realising it, and maybe in our own little way, we all are!!!! I shouldn't be like that, because as I'm also a Cub Scout Leader we have to encourage all our Cubs to strive to be the best they can in whatever they do and, regardless of what I actually think of their efforts, they have to be praised for what they've done. So I'll be looking at layouts at Exhibitions in a different manner from now on.

Regards

Neal.