Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes

[austinbob]

I've preordered some MK 1 Pullman coaches from Graham Farish and I'm wondering what Brake van/coach were used on Pullman rakes.
Internet search seems to suggest MK 1 Maroon Full Brake was often used. Is this right? Aesthetically it would be nice to use a Chocolate and Cream Full Brake - but that's probably wishful thinking.

Answers on an N gauge Forum Post card to this site please!! Ta!!

[Bad Raven]

Assume from your avatar that you must know about the Stove "R" done in Pullman livery.

What area are you modelling, I seem to recall that BR (SR) Pullman sets sometimes had an all brown Utility attached next to the Bullied loco but no idea when that ended.

[austinbob]

Assume from your avatar that you must know about the Stove "R" done in Pullman livery.

What area are you modelling, I seem to recall that BR (SR) Pullman sets sometimes had an all brown Utility attached next to the Bullied loco but no idea when that ended.

I'm rule 1 - I'm modelling no particular area. I just want to know a typical brake arrangement for a Pullman rake. There don't seem to be any current Stove R wagons available apart from the N gauge society versions - Did Stove R's attach to Pullman rakes? If so what livery?

Thanks for the clue though.

[R Marshall]

I can only comment on the consist for the Tees Tyne Pullman, which seems to have been made up of 6 Metro-Cammell vehicles, including the Hadrian Bar, 2 or 3 kitchen cars and the remainder as parlour cars. Two brake vehicles were common. These were the flat sided 1928 (or thereabouts) stock, positioned at the ends, usually, but not always. Car no. 63 was typical. Hornby modelled this in OO and there are pictures of the original on the web. I can't put up a picture just now, but will, if you need it, later in the week.

The brakes were brake ended only, not full brakes.

All this in steam days. With diesel haulage, consists were of greater length.

I've heard that Mk 1 brakes in BR livery were used later, but have no evidence of this myself.
Hopefully Hornby will produce some flat sided stock to fill the gap.
The TTP consist I've outlined is confirmed by pictures I've bought from Colour Rail.

[Dorsetmike]

The earlier Pullmans had third brakes. The SR would have used those plus if they wanted more luggage space (boat trains etc) then there would be an SR PLV (passenger luggage vans) planked wooden vans similar to the Dapol GUV or their passenger guards van that came out same time as the Maunsell coaches

[B P]

If I remember rightly the Bournemouth Belle was topped and tailed by Pullman brakes and there was also a Mk1 BG in either Pullman or WR livery coupled onto the end of the set.

[austinbob]

If I remember rightly the Bournemouth Belle was topped and tailed by Pullman brakes and there was also a Mk1 BG in either Pullman or WR livery coupled onto the end of the set.

I like that answer. A gwr chocolate and cream would look good.

[Jerry Howlett]

In railway legend it was said that Mk 1 chocolate and cream passenger brakes rarely returned from "southern territory" hijacked for those Pullmans perhaps ?

I purchased an old Farish Pullman brake to run with my Mk1 Pullmans to make it look right however these are "southern" in origin methinks.  The Stove R would not have run with a Pullman rake so despite the colour clash I think a maroon BSK or BG would be more true to life.

Jerry

[Bad Raven]

The Stove R would not have run with a Pullman rake

No, of course not..................


http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/cwn-pic2/bgz/bgz_7feb09_2791m.jpg


 

Dave (Prototype for everything department)

[Jerry Howlett]

The Stove R would not have run with a Pullman rake

No, of course not..................


http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/cwn-pic2/bgz/bgz_7feb09_2791m.jpg


 

Dave (Prototype for everything department)

OK A 12" TO THE FOOT RULE 1 RAILWAY...

[Adrian]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the Pullman trains often incorporated a Pup coach - corresponding body style but 6 wheel chassis not bogie.

Some years ago I had a commission to produce the CAD drawings for one of these in 4mm scale.  I probably still have these if anyone's interested.

LBSC wasn't really my thing so am struggling to recall what a Pup's function was in a train.  Perhaps someone here can throw more light?

Adrian

[Karhedron]

In railway legend it was said that Mk 1 chocolate and cream passenger brakes rarely returned from "southern territory" hijacked for those Pullmans perhaps ?

More than just a legend. On at least one occasion, Paddington was most displeased to receive a tatty maroon BG instead of their choc and cream example (which was next seen on the Bournemouth Belle  ).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4629802052/#

[zwilnik]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the Pullman trains often incorporated a Pup coach - corresponding body style but 6 wheel chassis not bogie.

Some years ago I had a commission to produce the CAD drawings for one of these in 4mm scale.  I probably still have these if anyone's interested.

LBSC wasn't really my thing so am struggling to recall what a Pup's function was in a train.  Perhaps someone here can throw more light?

Adrian

According to this article the pups were luggage vans.
http://scm.pastfinders.org/scm_29_pullman.htm

I thought the Bluebell Pullman Stove R was done as an 'in the style of' and there was never a real Stove R in Pullman livery. It's effectively the Protoype for the NGS one.

[Bad Raven]

I thought the Bluebell Pullman Stove R was done as an 'in the style of' and there was never a real Stove R in Pullman livery.

Nobody said there was................   If you go to the Blueball website there is a very clear explanation as to what, when and why

[Karhedron]

I thought the Bluebell Pullman Stove R was done as an 'in the style of' and there was never a real Stove R in Pullman livery. It's effectively the Protoype for the NGS one.

That is indeed correct. It is not historically accurate but it is a real (preservation) vehicle.

The thing to remember is that there were several solution to providing luggage space on Pullman trains and that which solution is correct depends slightly on where and when you are modelling.

The SR usually used Mk1 BGs (in Choc/cream, Maroon, Green and Blue/grey). However their trains like the Bournemouth Belle used the older Poole-era Pullman coaches rather than the current BachFar Mk1 Pullmans.

The MetCam Pullmans were built in 1960 and used mainly on the Midland and Eastern Regions. Some of the catering vehicles were loaned to the western Region and found their way into the Wells Fargo set (the set that was used as a replacement if one of the Blue Pullmans was unavailable).

If you are modelling the MR/ER (where these vehicles were most common) then the normal practice was to have one of the older 1928 brake-end vehicles (Poole-Farish vintage) at each end of the rake. This lasted until the mid 60s and you can see examples of this below.






Following the withdrawal of the old Pullman brakes, a couple of solutions were used. Sometimes a Mk1 BG in Maroon was added (the same practice as the SR).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3790331240/in/set-72157603582292952

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/7361104234/

At least 1 Mk1 BCK was painted in faux-Pullman livery and added to the set as can be seen below (maybe a job for custom vinyls).