N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: austinbob on March 25, 2015, 05:52:14 PM

Title: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: austinbob on March 25, 2015, 05:52:14 PM
I've preordered some MK 1 Pullman coaches from Graham Farish and I'm wondering what Brake van/coach were used on Pullman rakes.
Internet search seems to suggest MK 1 Maroon Full Brake was often used. Is this right? Aesthetically it would be nice to use a Chocolate and Cream Full Brake - but that's probably wishful thinking.

Answers on an N gauge Forum Post card to this site please!! Ta!!

 :beers:
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Bad Raven on March 25, 2015, 06:38:10 PM
Assume from your avatar that you must know about the Stove "R" done in Pullman livery.

What area are you modelling, I seem to recall that BR (SR) Pullman sets sometimes had an all brown Utility attached next to the Bullied loco but no idea when that ended.
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: austinbob on March 25, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
Assume from your avatar that you must know about the Stove "R" done in Pullman livery.

What area are you modelling, I seem to recall that BR (SR) Pullman sets sometimes had an all brown Utility attached next to the Bullied loco but no idea when that ended.
I'm rule 1 - I'm modelling no particular area. I just want to know a typical brake arrangement for a Pullman rake. There don't seem to be any current Stove R wagons available apart from the N gauge society versions - Did Stove R's attach to Pullman rakes? If so what livery?

Thanks for the clue though.
 :beers:
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: R Marshall on March 25, 2015, 07:30:20 PM
I can only comment on the consist for the Tees Tyne Pullman, which seems to have been made up of 6 Metro-Cammell vehicles, including the Hadrian Bar, 2 or 3 kitchen cars and the remainder as parlour cars. Two brake vehicles were common. These were the flat sided 1928 (or thereabouts) stock, positioned at the ends, usually, but not always. Car no. 63 was typical. Hornby modelled this in OO and there are pictures of the original on the web. I can't put up a picture just now, but will, if you need it, later in the week.

The brakes were brake ended only, not full brakes.

All this in steam days. With diesel haulage, consists were of greater length.

I've heard that Mk 1 brakes in BR livery were used later, but have no evidence of this myself.
Hopefully Hornby will produce some flat sided stock to fill the gap.
The TTP consist I've outlined is confirmed by pictures I've bought from Colour Rail.
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Dorsetmike on March 25, 2015, 07:34:16 PM
The earlier Pullmans had third brakes. The SR would have used those plus if they wanted more luggage space (boat trains etc) then there would be an SR PLV (passenger luggage vans) planked wooden vans similar to the Dapol GUV or their passenger guards van that came out same time as the Maunsell coaches
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: B P on March 25, 2015, 07:53:52 PM
If I remember rightly the Bournemouth Belle was topped and tailed by Pullman brakes and there was also a Mk1 BG in either Pullman or WR livery coupled onto the end of the set.
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: austinbob on March 25, 2015, 08:00:41 PM
If I remember rightly the Bournemouth Belle was topped and tailed by Pullman brakes and there was also a Mk1 BG in either Pullman or WR livery coupled onto the end of the set.
I like that answer. A gwr chocolate and cream would look good.
 :)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Jerry Howlett on March 25, 2015, 09:07:30 PM
In railway legend it was said that Mk 1 chocolate and cream passenger brakes rarely returned from "southern territory" hijacked for those Pullmans perhaps ?

I purchased an old Farish Pullman brake to run with my Mk1 Pullmans to make it look right however these are "southern" in origin methinks.  The Stove R would not have run with a Pullman rake so despite the colour clash I think a maroon BSK or BG would be more true to life.

Jerry
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Bad Raven on March 25, 2015, 09:29:56 PM
The Stove R would not have run with a Pullman rake


No, of course not..................


http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/cwn-pic2/bgz/bgz_7feb09_2791m.jpg (http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/cwn-pic2/bgz/bgz_7feb09_2791m.jpg)


 ;)  :D :D

Dave (Prototype for everything department)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Jerry Howlett on March 25, 2015, 09:55:36 PM
The Stove R would not have run with a Pullman rake


No, of course not..................


[url]http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/cwn-pic2/bgz/bgz_7feb09_2791m.jpg[/url] ([url]http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/cwn-pic2/bgz/bgz_7feb09_2791m.jpg[/url])


 ;)  :D :D

Dave (Prototype for everything department)


 :whiteflag: :whiteflag: :whiteflag: :whiteflag:

OK A 12" TO THE FOOT RULE 1 RAILWAY...
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Adrian on March 25, 2015, 10:28:24 PM
I don't think anyone has mentioned that the Pullman trains often incorporated a Pup coach - corresponding body style but 6 wheel chassis not bogie.

Some years ago I had a commission to produce the CAD drawings for one of these in 4mm scale.  I probably still have these if anyone's interested.

LBSC wasn't really my thing so am struggling to recall what a Pup's function was in a train.  Perhaps someone here can throw more light?

Adrian
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Karhedron on March 25, 2015, 10:50:56 PM
In railway legend it was said that Mk 1 chocolate and cream passenger brakes rarely returned from "southern territory" hijacked for those Pullmans perhaps ?

More than just a legend. On at least one occasion, Paddington was most displeased to receive a tatty maroon BG instead of their choc and cream example (which was next seen on the Bournemouth Belle  :whistle: ).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4629802052/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4629802052/#)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: zwilnik on March 26, 2015, 09:39:50 AM
I don't think anyone has mentioned that the Pullman trains often incorporated a Pup coach - corresponding body style but 6 wheel chassis not bogie.

Some years ago I had a commission to produce the CAD drawings for one of these in 4mm scale.  I probably still have these if anyone's interested.

LBSC wasn't really my thing so am struggling to recall what a Pup's function was in a train.  Perhaps someone here can throw more light?

Adrian


According to this article the pups were luggage vans.
 http://scm.pastfinders.org/scm_29_pullman.htm (http://scm.pastfinders.org/scm_29_pullman.htm)

I thought the Bluebell Pullman Stove R was done as an 'in the style of' and there was never a real Stove R in Pullman livery. It's effectively the Protoype for the NGS one.
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Bad Raven on March 26, 2015, 11:01:53 AM

I thought the Bluebell Pullman Stove R was done as an 'in the style of' and there was never a real Stove R in Pullman livery.

Nobody said there was................   If you go to the Blueball website there is a very clear explanation as to what, when and why ;)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Karhedron on March 26, 2015, 11:11:27 AM
I thought the Bluebell Pullman Stove R was done as an 'in the style of' and there was never a real Stove R in Pullman livery. It's effectively the Protoype for the NGS one.

That is indeed correct. It is not historically accurate but it is a real (preservation) vehicle.

The thing to remember is that there were several solution to providing luggage space on Pullman trains and that which solution is correct depends slightly on where and when you are modelling.

The SR usually used Mk1 BGs (in Choc/cream, Maroon, Green and Blue/grey). However their trains like the Bournemouth Belle used the older Poole-era Pullman coaches rather than the current BachFar Mk1 Pullmans.

The MetCam Pullmans were built in 1960 and used mainly on the Midland and Eastern Regions. Some of the catering vehicles were loaned to the western Region and found their way into the Wells Fargo set (the set that was used as a replacement if one of the Blue Pullmans was unavailable).

If you are modelling the MR/ER (where these vehicles were most common) then the normal practice was to have one of the older 1928 brake-end vehicles (Poole-Farish vintage) at each end of the rake. This lasted until the mid 60s and you can see examples of this below.

(http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/d-hannah-dh-D346-pullman.jpg)
(http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/d9002_york_3.8.62.jpg)
(http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/d-harrah-dh-darlington-2.jpg)
(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-6751-12589188926608_thumb.jpg)

Following the withdrawal of the old Pullman brakes, a couple of solutions were used. Sometimes a Mk1 BG in Maroon was added (the same practice as the SR).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3790331240/in/set-72157603582292952 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3790331240/in/set-72157603582292952)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/7361104234/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/7361104234/)

At least 1 Mk1 BCK was painted in faux-Pullman livery and added to the set as can be seen below (maybe a job for custom vinyls).

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-8964-0-12560900-1420229336.jpg)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Newportnobby on March 26, 2015, 04:37:26 PM
Thanks very much for that, Matt.
I just happen to have 3 x Farish 0656 Pullman brakes which I was going to sell but will hang on to 'em now.
 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Caz on March 26, 2015, 04:51:21 PM
What a great answer Karhedron, that's why this forum is so great, we have some really knowledgeable people on here.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: austinbob on March 26, 2015, 05:37:03 PM

The SR usually used Mk1 BGs (in Choc/cream, Maroon, Green and Blue/grey). However their trains like the Bournemouth Belle used the older Poole-era Pullman coaches rather than the current BachFar Mk1 Pullmans.

The MetCam Pullmans were built in 1960 and used mainly on the Midland and Eastern Regions. Some of the catering vehicles were loaned to the western Region and found their way into the Wells Fargo set (the set that was used as a replacement if one of the Blue Pullmans was unavailable).

If you are modelling the MR/ER (where these vehicles were most common) then the normal practice was to have one of the older 1928 brake-end vehicles (Poole-Farish vintage) at each end of the rake. This lasted until the mid 60s and you can see examples of this below.
Following the withdrawal of the old Pullman brakes, a couple of solutions were used. Sometimes a Mk1 BG in Maroon was added (the same practice as the SR).
Thank you so much Karhedron. I bought a Farish Chocolate and Cream BG Mk 1 today and KGB models just happened to have two old Farish Pullman Brake ends as per your photos so I ordered those today. All set for most eventualities now. I just need to wait the year, 2 years - whatever - for my preordered new Farish Pullman coaches to be delivered!!!
Thanks again.
 :beers:
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: dodger on March 26, 2015, 08:51:45 PM
Bob and Sue's models in Dibden Pirlieu had some Poole Pullmans including Brakes last week.

Dodger
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: austinbob on March 26, 2015, 09:00:44 PM
Bob and Sue's models in Dibden Pirlieu had some Poole Pullmans including Brakes last week.

Dodger
Thanks Dodger but the deal is done with kgb models
 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: RichardBattersby on September 06, 2015, 09:57:31 PM
Does the Farish Collectors Club Pullman Brake fit the white roofed Pullmans Farish have made? I've just joined and really fancy it but it is grey roofed so assume it doesn't fit with the white tops. Is it too late in period?

http://bachmann-collectorsclub.co.uk/featured-products/n-scale-br-mk1-bck-sloa-pullman-coach-car-no-355.html (http://bachmann-collectorsclub.co.uk/featured-products/n-scale-br-mk1-bck-sloa-pullman-coach-car-no-355.html)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: talisman56 on September 08, 2015, 02:37:26 PM
I don't think anyone has mentioned that the Pullman trains often incorporated a Pup coach - corresponding body style but 6 wheel chassis not bogie.

Some years ago I had a commission to produce the CAD drawings for one of these in 4mm scale.  I probably still have these if anyone's interested.

LBSC wasn't really my thing so am struggling to recall what a Pup's function was in a train.  Perhaps someone here can throw more light?

Adrian


According to this article the pups were luggage vans.
 [url]http://scm.pastfinders.org/scm_29_pullman.htm[/url] ([url]http://scm.pastfinders.org/scm_29_pullman.htm[/url])

I thought the Bluebell Pullman Stove R was done as an 'in the style of' and there was never a real Stove R in Pullman livery. It's effectively the Protoype for the NGS one.


But the article also says that the Pullman train was lit and heated by electricity - the 'Pup's also contained generators which were driven by belts attached one of the axles of the vehicle...
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Karhedron on September 08, 2015, 03:07:40 PM
Does the Farish Collectors Club Pullman Brake fit the white roofed Pullmans Farish have made? I've just joined and really fancy it but it is grey roofed so assume it doesn't fit with the white tops. Is it too late in period?

In practice the Mk1 Pullmans seem to have received grey roofs fairly early in their lives. Whether this was a deliberate painting decision or simply the accumulation of soot/diesel deposits, I do not know. Look at these photos from the 60s and you will see they are mostly grey-roofed. The first shot even includes the Mk1 BCK upon which the special is based.

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-8964-0-12560900-1420229336.jpg)

(http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/dh-47-pullman-beeston.jpg)

(http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00001-jrc-chris-carter-D170.jpg)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: talisman56 on September 08, 2015, 03:14:53 PM
I believe the grey roof was part of a livery change made about the same time the Pullman Crest was redesigned (stretched) at the turn of the 60s. Certainly there were more grey-roofed Pullmans than (dirty) white ones when I was frequenting platform ends in the 60s...
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: RichardBattersby on September 08, 2015, 07:37:20 PM
Does the Farish Collectors Club Pullman Brake fit the white roofed Pullmans Farish have made? I've just joined and really fancy it but it is grey roofed so assume it doesn't fit with the white tops. Is it too late in period?
In practice the Mk1 Pullmans seem to have received grey roofs fairly early in their lives. Whether this was a deliberate painting decision or simply the accumulation of soot/diesel deposits, I do not know. Look at these photos from the 60s and you will see they are mostly grey-roofed. The first shot even includes the Mk1 BCK upon which the special is based.

Thank you for that. Interesting pics. So it presumably ran with white roof carriages at some point and therefore OK to run with my rake?
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Karhedron on September 08, 2015, 08:05:21 PM
Does the Farish Collectors Club Pullman Brake fit the white roofed Pullmans Farish have made? I've just joined and really fancy it but it is grey roofed so assume it doesn't fit with the white tops. Is it too late in period?

In practice the Mk1 Pullmans seem to have received grey roofs fairly early in their lives. Whether this was a deliberate painting decision or simply the accumulation of soot/diesel deposits, I do not know. Look at these photos from the 60s and you will see they are mostly grey-roofed. The first shot even includes the Mk1 BCK upon which the special is based.


Thank you for that. Interesting pics. So it presumably ran with white roof carriages at some point and therefore OK to run with my rake?

Not sure when it recieved Pullman livery but it  certainly did later on for Railtour duty.

(http://80srail.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-2/p16183698-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: RichardBattersby on September 08, 2015, 08:10:25 PM
Does the Farish Collectors Club Pullman Brake fit the white roofed Pullmans Farish have made? I've just joined and really fancy it but it is grey roofed so assume it doesn't fit with the white tops. Is it too late in period?
In practice the Mk1 Pullmans seem to have received grey roofs fairly early in their lives. Whether this was a deliberate painting decision or simply the accumulation of soot/diesel deposits, I do not know. Look at these photos from the 60s and you will see they are mostly grey-roofed. The first shot even includes the Mk1 BCK upon which the special is based.

Thank you for that. Interesting pics. So it presumably ran with white roof carriages at some point and therefore OK to run with my rake?
Not sure when it recieved Pullman livery but it  certainly did later on.

Great picture! Thank you! Going to order one I think!
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Dr Al on September 09, 2015, 11:17:11 AM
Matt, do you know when the earlier Pullman brakes were withdrawn? All the pics show Diesel haulage implying it was fairly late on and that most steam haulage would therefore have been with the 1928 Pullman brakes, rather than any Mk1 brakes/BGs?

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Karhedron on September 09, 2015, 11:28:02 AM
I believe the grey roof was part of a livery change made about the same time the Pullman Crest was redesigned (stretched) at the turn of the 60s. Certainly there were more grey-roofed Pullmans than (dirty) white ones when I was frequenting platform ends in the 60s...

Possibly it coincided with the incorporation of Pullman services into BR in 1962. Not conclusive but seems to fit the evidence.
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Karhedron on September 09, 2015, 11:38:08 AM
Matt, do you know when the earlier Pullman brakes were withdrawn? All the pics show Diesel haulage implying it was fairly late on and that most steam haulage would therefore have been with the 1928 Pullman brakes, rather than any Mk1 brakes/BGs?

The 1928 brake-ends were withdrawn in 1966 so these vehicles would have been available for use almost until the end of steam. However the use of Mk1 BGs began before the withdrawal of the pullman brakes in response to demand for additional luggage space.

The Bournemouth Belle in particular often ran MK1 BGs as well as pullman brake-end coaches to meet this need. Here is one of the "kidnapped" western BGs as part of the Bournemouth Belle set in 1965.

(http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Bournemouth_Belle_1965.jpg)

(http://www.germansteam.co.uk/1962/Bulleids/SW/55-35012.jpg)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: crepello on September 11, 2015, 05:17:27 PM
I think 1928 Pullmans, including a brake, would be a good bet for one of our favourite manufacturers to produce. It's clear there is demand, especially as the brakes ran with the Mark 1s too. Maybe Hornby (Arnold) is the best bet in view their experience with the Brighton Belle.
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Karhedron on September 11, 2015, 09:59:04 PM
I agree, some 1928 Pullmans from Hornby/Arnold (or anyone else for that matter) would be very welcome. They would look great behind a Bulleid Pacific.
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: Newportnobby on September 11, 2015, 10:16:41 PM
I agree, some 1928 Pullmans from Hornby/Arnold (or anyone else for that matter) would be very welcome. They would look great behind a Bulleid Pacific.............

..........Or a Lord Nelson ;)
Title: Re: Brake van/coach for Pullman rakes
Post by: crepello on September 12, 2015, 03:18:32 PM
Or an A1, A2, A3 or A4! Or a Deltic! Maybe Castles, Brits too on the Western? Must get out those books to check!
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal