The Next R-T-R Complete Train ?

[joe cassidy]

Just for fun I've estimated what it would cost me to buy the materials to make my own Coronation Scot train :

1 x Farish Duchess chassis - free (I've got 3 in stock)
1 x Langley body kit - £35.30
6 x Farish 57' Stanier coaches - £123.15
1 x Etched Pixels 50' Stanier kitchen car kit - £17.50
transfers from Fox - £27.70
TOTAL - £203.65

The above does not include paint, glue, bits and pieces.

In my opinion an RTR Coronation Scot at £250 would be a bargain.

Best regards,


Joe

[Roy L S]

Going back to the original post, I'm sorry but an Ivatt tank with 2 coaches has zero "Wow" factor and is not going to get the Rule 1 punters opening their wallets like they did for the Blue Pullman and the Brighton Belle.

I still contend that a streamlined LMS Coronation with matching coaches would have similar "sex appeal".

I have just been re-reading the article about the annual model making competition in the 4th issue of the 2010 N Gauge Journal. Mr. Graham Lowe won awards for no less than 4 streamlined Coronations. This must be the most popular loco kit Langley ever did.

Take a look at the photo of Alistair Knox's kit-built Coronation Scot train on page 453 of the June 2014 issue of 'Railway Modeller'.

This train is a must for any self-respecting LMS mainline roundy-roundy layout.

Best regards,


Joe

Hi Joe

The difference is that the Ivatt and Push-Pull could probably retail at £100-£120 which is more affordable. Different livery variants would be possible, and people would conceivably be much more likely to make multiple purchases at that kind of price-point. True not very "sexy" but commercially more viable.

Only Langley will know for sure but I would speculate just by the sheer number of them you see, the length of time it has been available and the comparatively recent advent of the RTR versions that the most popular Langley kit is much more likely to be their B1.

Regards

Roy

[PLD]

In some cases it doesn't need to be a compromise, choose a scenario where an express from London  splits to more than one destination and model somewhere on the route after the split, I'm only familiar with the Southern, but for example a 12 coach train from Waterloo would split at Bournemouth Central, typically 6 coaches including the catering vehicle would proceed to Bournemouth West, the remaining 6 coaches might split again at Wareham, 2 for Swanage and 4 for Weymouth or with no Wareham split all 6 to Weymouth, the Atlantic coast express would split into even more portions.

You don't have to pick a prototypical location, just employ the split scenario under rule 1, you can make it fit the size of your layout.

While the other three of the big four companies did provide through coaches, they didn't employ splitting and joining to anything like the extent the Southern did. In addition those through coaches were mainly conveyed by the second grade trains rather than the most prestigious expresses.
Taking the LMS as an example (as Joe is proposing a Coronation Scot), the Top expresses such as the Royal Scot and Coronation Scot were fixed formations from start to end and did not split/join en route. In addition where through coaches were provided they were most commonly attached to a local train for the last part of their journey, typically hauled by smaller locos. You did not routinely have Coronations pottering down a branchline with 3 or 4 coaches as did happen with Bulleid Pacifics on some lines...

Another example is be the Pullman out of King's Cross to Harrogate & Bradford. The train split at Leeds, and 4 or 5 coaches went to each of the two final destinations.(50s and 60s)

Presumably you are referring to the "Yorkshire Pulman", which also had a 4 coach section for Hull (detached at Doncaster) as well as the Bradford and Harrogate portions...

Again the big atractive mainline loco (in this case, usually a A4 in that period) came off at Leeds and each portion was taken on to its final destination either attached to a local train or by a smaller loco - in the case of the Hull portion typically a V3 2-6-2T. You didn't get the scenario of the big engine with the short train - the A4 would not normally be seen with less than 7 or 8 coaches

[PLD]

Just for fun I've estimated what it would cost me to buy the materials to make my own Coronation Scot train :

1 x Farish Duchess chassis - free (I've got 3 in stock)
1 x Langley body kit - £35.30
6 x Farish 57' Stanier coaches - £123.15
1 x Etched Pixels 50' Stanier kitchen car kit - £17.50
transfers from Fox - £27.70
TOTAL - £203.65

The above does not include paint, glue, bits and pieces.

In my opinion an RTR Coronation Scot at £250 would be a bargain.

Best regards,

Joe

Joe, if you are happy with that as a representation of the Coronation Scot, then great - go for it! but I and I'm sure many others would not be satisfied...

However,

• to use that as a benchmark for pricing an R-T-R set is highly misleading - not everyone will have a chassis in stock and that is presumably the old Poole spec and not up to the standards of current expectations.
• £250 for any large loco plus 6 or 7 coaches would indeed be a 'bargain' but with a dose of reality it no longer a realistic proposition.
• you could not honestly sell that as an authentic Coronation Scot set. Tell us - would you have accepted 2 power cars + 2 ordinary Mk1 coaches as an 'accurate' 6 car Blue Pulman?? That is the equivalent of what you are proposing in a shortened set with generic vehicles instead of the bespoke prototypes...

[joe cassidy]

Joe, if you are happy with that as a representation of the Coronation Scot, then great - go for it! but I and I'm sure many others would not be satisfied...

you could not honestly sell that as an authentic Coronation Scot set. Tell us - would you have accepted 2 power cars + 2 ordinary Mk1 coaches as an 'accurate' 6 car Blue Pulman?? That is the equivalent of what you are proposing in a shortened set with generic vehicles instead of the bespoke prototypes...[/li]
[/list]

The Blue Pullman was a good choice because the prototypical train formation was only 6 vehicles. However, Kato have been getting away with selling truncated TGVs and Eurostars for years without any fuss.
If "short" trains with "missing" coaches are OK for modern image why should things be different for steam ?

Best regards,


Joe

[PLD]

However, Kato have been getting away with selling truncated TGVs and Eurostars for years without any fuss.
If "short" trains with "missing" coaches are OK for modern image why should things be different for steam ?

True...

BUT unlike your proposals;

• The coaches offered are accurate for the train represented, not generic types reliveried.
• They offer add-on packs to make then up to the correct full-length formations, which you have not mentioned

[joe cassidy]

I feel we're starting to converge here. As mentioned in a earlier post, the existing Farish Staniers could be made more accurate for the Coronation Scot by making new roof mouldings (or a seperate moulding for the ventilation ducting that could be glued to the existing roof mouldings).

Your idea of add-on packs for those who want a 9 coach train is a great one. I would go along with that if I was a manufacturer. Assuming that Farish brought out a kitchen car the original set could be brake first/corridor first/open composite/kitchen car/third open/brake third.

The add-on set could be 2 third opens and a kitchen car, so in the 9 coach train the only discrepancy would be the composite open instead of the first restaurant.

Going back to the acceptablity of a 6 coach train, there is an article in the February 2002 issue of 'Railway Modeller', pp.78-79 that describes the construction of a 6 coach train based on heavily modified Lima coaches. If 6 coaches is OK for such an accomplished modeller as the author of this article then it's certainly enough for the likes of me !

Best regards,


Joe

[ScottyStitch]

Another example is be the Pullman out of King's Cross to Harrogate & Bradford. The train split at Leeds, and 4 or 5 coaches went to each of the two final destinations.(50s and 60s)

Presumably you are referring to the "Yorkshire Pulman", which also had a 4 coach section for Hull (detached at Doncaster) as well as the Bradford and Harrogate portions...

Again the big atractive mainline loco (in this case, usually a A4 in that period) came off at Leeds and each portion was taken on to its final destination either attached to a local train or by a smaller loco - in the case of the Hull portion typically a V3 2-6-2T. You didn't get the scenario of the big engine with the short train - the A4 would not normally be seen with less than 7 or 8 coaches
[/quote]

Yes that's what I was referring to, the Yorkshire Pullmand and the White Rose Pullman. I only have a (limited) knowledge of workings in the mid sixties, but the split portions were hauled from Leeds by type 4 diesels of the day by '65.

But with that in mind, perhaps for a complete train in the vein of the Blue Pullman, how about the Master Cutler with "Falcon" at the head? Or DP2 at the head of an ex-Kings Cross Pullman?