Quote from: red_death on February 14, 2025, 02:00:18 PM- the Mk1 Pullmans came in during 1961 IIRC
- white vs grey roofs: I'm inclined to agree with Richard that what people largely refer to as grey roofs was mostly aged/dirty/weathered. The exception to that seems to be the 1960s where it seems pretty convincing that repaints did have a grey roof (as well as the newer Pullman coat of arms and "simplified" lining (that all seems clear in Ford's excellent Pullman Profile book).

The first Mk1 Pullmans were Eagle, Falcon, Amber and Car 332, introduced into service on The Master Cutler on 28 Sep 1960. The last entered service on the Queen of Scots on 10 Apr 1961 (Ref Pullman Car Services Archive).

The Master Cutler had been running as a six-car K-type Pullman formation via the ECML since 1958. I haven't yet found a photo, but I believe it was usually all-first, apart from the brakes.

Trivia, the Cutler is unique among named trains in that it ran on three different routes to Sheffield - first on the Great Central, then the ECML and finally the Midland.

"Locomotive Hauled Mark 1 coaching stock of British Railways" (Keith Parkin, 1982) has a photo captioned that "Emerald" had been repainted dark grey as early as July 1961.

 

The first Master Cutler was:

15 September 1958: D207 + **70,** 303, Rosamund, Sappho, Pluto, **68**

Sept 1960: **70** and **80** (it contained these but 70 was a BSP).

Cheers Mike

From my 1965 Combined Volume

Quote from: PLD on February 13, 2025, 11:35:38 AM

Quote from: class8mikado on February 13, 2025, 11:10:09 AM
 now am having trouble getting my head round which are the most appropriate for Eastern region early 50's...

How about the set titled "BR (E) ECML 1950s" for starters...
The Queen of Scots sets fit as well, and also the Pair of Brakes if you want to run with other Pullman types.

This set contains three Brake cars, did such rakes ever exist with three in them ?
I cannot find any photos as such.

Quote from: ngauge66 on February 16, 2025, 12:41:05 AMThis set contains three Brake cars, did such rakes ever exist with three in them ?
I cannot find any photos as such.

As per the description "This pack is useful for the 1950s Pullman services which were often formed of different types of Pullmans." that pack isn't a whole self contained train, it's intended to mix with other types to make up the full set. But regardless, yes there certainly were trains with three (or more) brake vehicles - trains that split/joined en-route would have at least one in each section. The Yorkshire Pullman is a prime example, with up to four (3x Pulman Brakes & a BG) in the full train.

Quote from: PLD on February 16, 2025, 01:01:21 AM

Quote from: ngauge66 on February 16, 2025, 12:41:05 AMThis set contains three Brake cars, did such rakes ever exist with three in them ?
I cannot find any photos as such.

As per the description "This pack is useful for the 1950s Pullman services which were often formed of different types of Pullmans." that pack isn't a whole self contained train, it's intended to mix with other types to make up the full set. But regardless, yes there certainly were trains with three (or more) brake vehicles - trains that split/joined en-route would have at least one in each section. The Yorkshire Pullman is a prime example, with up to four (3x Pulman Brakes & a BG) in the full train.

Thank you for that confirmation, despite trawling the internet I cannot find any evidence of formations with more than two brake vehicles included.
My layout period is 1960s so it seems reasonable that I can combine this particular set with Graham Farish MK1 range of pullmans in Umber and cream and white roofs.

Quote from: red_death on February 15, 2025, 01:40:08 AMThe first Master Cutler was: 15 Sep 1958: D207 + **70,** 303, Rosamund, Sappho, Pluto, **68**
Sept 1960: **70** and **80** (it contained these but 70 was a BSP).
Cheers Mike

Thanks - that's very helpful! My only reference to the 1958 formation was in "Pullman" (Julian Morel, 1983) Which simply lists it as "Second Brake-First-First-First-First-Second Brake", with no mention of parlours or kitchens. The Cutler made one return trip per day, up in the morning and down in the evening, stopping only at Retford. In the middle of the day the set made an un-named second return trip Sheffield-London-Sheffield with additional stops at Peterborough and Grantham. From the launch it was always scheduled to be hauled by an EE Type 4 (Class 40). It was discontinued in October 1968, and had only grown by the addition of a bogie full brake - "Titled Trains of Great Britain" (Cecil J Allen, 6th edition, 1983).

1959 Yorkshire Pullman
2nd Brake (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
1st Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Parlour (Harrogate)
1st Parlour (Bradford Exc)
2nd Kitchen (Bradford Exc)
Mk1 BCK     (Leeds)
2nd Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Parlour (Hull)
1st Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Brake (Hull)

The Yorkshire Pullman formation is rather long, but the Master Cutler (6 coaches)is ideal for a moderate size layout.

Quote from: Crepello on February 17, 2025, 03:26:47 PMThe Yorkshire Pullman formation is rather long, but the Master Cutler (6 coaches)is ideal for a moderate size layout.

True, for the full train, however think how it operated and it presents some other opportunities... Both the Hull and Harrogate portions of the YP continued to their final destinations as separate trains, so if you strategically locate the layout, offer up two even shorter options for prototypical all-Pullman formations.
The 2-coach Bradford portion got attached to another train at Leeds, so there's an opportunity for mixing Pullmans with other stock..

Quote from: PLD on February 17, 2025, 05:25:25 PM

Quote from: Crepello on February 17, 2025, 03:26:47 PMThe Yorkshire Pullman formation is rather long, but the Master Cutler (6 coaches)is ideal for a moderate size layout.

True, for the full train, however think how it operated and it presents some other opportunities... Both the Hull and Harrogate portions of the YP continued to their final destinations as separate trains, so if you strategically locate the layout, offer up two even shorter options for prototypical all-Pullman formations.
The 2-coach Bradford portion got attached to another train at Leeds, so there's an opportunity for mixing Pullmans with other stock..

Good point, though most of the info i have on the Bradford is that in the other direction it was a dedicated train of 2 plus a non pullman brake

Anyway took the plunge on a queen of scots pack A...

Hoping at some point in the future that they may be available as individuals/pairs

N Gauge News have put up some early EP sample pics on Facebook - looking good.

https://www.facebook.com/ngaugenews

With all the interest (quite rightly) focused on the on the correct use of Pullmans in the Pullman services on the ECML, it has occurred to me that there's one use of a steel-bodied Pullman vehicle that seems have been overlooked.
Maunsell's Southern Railway/Region sets 469 and 470 can be made up from existing Dapol Low Window stock - however these Sets ran with a Pullman Parlour First in the middle of them (BSK-FK-FK-FK-Pullman Parlour First -FK-FK-FK-BSK). These Sets were intended for commuter use on the Central Section of the SR between Victoria and the South Coast, (the high proportion of First Class accommodation was due to the expected status of the intended businessman and civil servant clientele).
Can any of the experts out there give me any details of these Pullman vehicles? Would one of the highly anticipated Revolution Pullmans be correct for use with these two Southern Sets? Messrs Gould's and King's excellent books are no help in this matter.

Quote from: Cols on Yesterday at 01:22:00 PMMaunsell's Southern Railway/Region sets 469 and 470 can be made up from existing Dapol Low Window stock - however these Sets ran with a Pullman Parlour First in the middle of them (BSK-FK-FK-FK-Pullman Parlour First -FK-FK-FK-BSK). These Sets were intended for commuter use on the Central Section of the SR between Victoria and the South Coast, (the high proportion of First Class accommodation was due to the expected status of the intended businessman and civil servant clientele).
Can any of the experts out there give me any details of these Pullman vehicles? Would one of the highly anticipated Revolution Pullmans be correct for use with these two Southern Sets? Messrs Gould's and King's excellent books are no help in this matter.

Similarly the 1950s Newhaven boat train can be assembled in part from the crimson/cream low window loose stock 2P-012-651/652/600/601/700/701 plus a Farish PLV or two, and an unspecified Pullman coach.

I'm planning on using the Parlour First "Shiela", from the Revolution Belle pack B, in my 1950s boat train, as the Belle Pack A and half of Belle Pack B are making up my 1960s Bournemouth Belle.
I don't think K type Pullmans made it to the southern until the 1960s, and I suspect they are not the Pullmans we are looking for (sorry about the Star Wars reference).
They were definitely not Farish Mk 1 Pullmans either, so you might have to dig out your Farish Poole wooden panelled Pullmans unless you do something like my Rule 1 approach.

Bob