The Farish 91 can be made to look OK if you sacrifice the front coupling, cut off and fill the front valance and attach it to the body. A decent pantograph helps - I used a Revolution Stone-Faively type.

My dream 91 would have NEM sockets both ends with an optional full front valance. Tooling for Class 91 as built and the 91/1 with full DCC sound, lighting and the works. Not sure about the rotating cardan shafts to the wheels but if there's a way...

Quote from: Adam1701D on June 07, 2024, 10:58:29 PMI have done considerable work on an N Gauge Class 91 and Mk4 spec but the combination of tooling costs and the cost-of-living crisis mean it is unlikely to happen at the moment.

Given the Dapol range includes the 67 already is there not a potential for tooling up the DVT and whatever coaches TFW use from the sets first to then expand into the 91 and the rest of the fleet afterwards?

That's massively restrictive though. One livery, limited geography. I doubt 5% of sales of mk4s would be TfW. 

Quote from: Adam1701D on June 07, 2024, 10:58:29 PMI have done considerable work on an N Gauge Class 91 and Mk4 spec but the combination of tooling costs and the cost-of-living crisis mean it is unlikely to happen at the moment.

Yes, I do have selfish seasons for wanting a 91 or three...

Personally I would struggle to see a viable business case for a 91 in N given the restricted routes they are/were used on and single type of rolling stock hauled. The 90 is more understandable as it is an altogether more versatile and wider travelled class.

Quote from: Roy L S on June 10, 2024, 01:45:09 PMPersonally I would struggle to see a viable business case for a 91 in N given the restricted routes they are/were used on and single type of rolling stock hauled. The 90 is more understandable as it is an altogether more versatile and wider travelled class.

Pendolinos are even more restricted, but they've now been run twice!

Regards,

John P

Of course I cannot speak for anybody but myself, but I would have at least the class 91 loco as a "rule one" purchase (much like I did with my Pendo).

Farish seemed to shift a fair few of the original tooling, and saw fit to issue a new GNER livery version when they were taken over by Bachmann.

Skyline2uk

Quote from: Roy L S on June 10, 2024, 01:45:09 PMPersonally I would struggle to see a viable business case for a 91 in N given the restricted routes they are/were used on and single type of rolling stock hauled.

I'd have to say I disagree. The class 91s have worked over the full length of the ECML between London and Glasgow, plus the branches to Leeds, Bradford and Skipton, and have been in service for 35 years and counting. If that is "restricted" then the same applies to e.g. the Stanier Pacifics, except that Stanier Pacifics weren't in service as long! But, nonetheless, Stanier Pacifics have been re-run in N. 

And it was also initially envisaged that the Class 91s would work freight and parcels services blunt-end first, thus extending the options for "Rule 1" purchases.

I suspect we will see a re-tooled 91 from Farish at some point, but as they seem happy with making money from N by drip-feeding new releases over an extended timescale we may have a long wait.  In more robust financial times, that might leave an opening for a faster-moving competitor to jump in, but that doesn't seem to be the case for British N at the moment. 

(On that note and going OT, given the economic situation I am amazed at the quantity and variety of expensive 00 locos that are still being pumped out at eye-watering prices.  I suspect a lot of 70 year olds' pension schemes are being extensively raided, and that there will be an absolute tidal wave of highly-detailed (and never unboxed?) stock appearing in estate sales in the next fifteen years.) 

Quote from: Roy L S on June 10, 2024, 01:45:09 PM

Quote from: Adam1701D on June 07, 2024, 10:58:29 PMI have done considerable work on an N Gauge Class 91 and Mk4 spec but the combination of tooling costs and the cost-of-living crisis mean it is unlikely to happen at the moment.

Yes, I do have selfish seasons for wanting a 91 or three...

Personally I would struggle to see a viable business case for a 91 in N given the restricted routes they are/were used on and single type of rolling stock hauled. The 90 is more understandable as it is an altogether more versatile and wider travelled class.

I have to join the chorus of questioning the 'restricted routes' part particularly. They operate on the whole of the ECML, and the very northern bit of the WCML and have done so for 35 years. That's far wider and longer than a lot of other models. Lots of liveries. I do think they have a certain following too, as does so much ECML stock.

Quote from: njee20 on June 10, 2024, 05:15:35 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on June 10, 2024, 01:45:09 PM

Quote from: Adam1701D on June 07, 2024, 10:58:29 PMI have done considerable work on an N Gauge Class 91 and Mk4 spec but the combination of tooling costs and the cost-of-living crisis mean it is unlikely to happen at the moment.

Yes, I do have selfish seasons for wanting a 91 or three...

Personally I would struggle to see a viable business case for a 91 in N given the restricted routes they are/were used on and single type of rolling stock hauled. The 90 is more understandable as it is an altogether more versatile and wider travelled class.

I have to join the chorus of questioning the 'restricted routes' part particularly. They operate on the whole of the ECML, and the very northern bit of the WCML and have done so for 35 years. That's far wider and longer than a lot of other models. Lots of liveries. I do think they have a certain following too, as does so much ECML stock.

I am very happy to respect that others have a different opinion to me with regard to this particular model, it doesn't make anybody "right" or anybody "wrong" just means views are different.

As regards the Stanier "Duchess" a valid point made about longevity v's the 91 by @Richard Taylor but it would have to be said that the Duchesses pulled a variety of different coaches/trains in their lives including mail (I am pretty sure) and latterly could be seen on parcels trains and the like towards the end of their time in service.

I think Adam's take on the 225 train is the most telling, so would a loco without the Mk4s sell as a "Rule 1"?  Opinion seems to be it would and so presumably they would be happy hooking up to other coach types like Mk3s?

Roy

They did operate with mk3s in the early days, so it's not wholly unprototypical. I would say they have to be done together (with the DVT) to be viable though, and as such I totally get why they've not, but IMO that isn't the same as a limited geographical range. Look at some of the wagons we've had that run small flows.

The class 91 was built and ready to use before the mk4s were ready. The 91s ran on sets of HST Mk3 with buffer fitted HST power car at the other end.

Away from the Mk4, 91s could be found on excursion trains - look on the likes of Flickr and you'll find pictures of them with mk1 and mk2 sets.

From time to time you'd find a mk4 set away from the ECML. They ran into Manchester Piccadilly on a couple of occasions.

How different are the various types of Mk4? We manage with Dapol's Mk3 and the various loco vs hst versions not being 100% correct.


Steven B

Quote from: njee20 on June 10, 2024, 06:18:55 PMThey did operate with mk3s in the early days, so it's not wholly unprototypical. I would say they have to be done together (with the DVT) to be viable though, and as such I totally get why they've not, but IMO that isn't the same as a limited geographical range. Look at some of the wagons we've had that run small flows.

I agree as regards wagons, the Alcan alumina wagons being a good example - a single flow albeit for a fair while now. Scary to think the the Fort William smelter is the only one left in the UK now and so the sole source of UK produced aluminium 

Quote from: Steven B on June 10, 2024, 06:45:33 PMThe class 91 was built and ready to use before the mk4s were ready. The 91s ran on sets of HST Mk3 with buffer fitted HST power car at the other end.

Away from the Mk4, 91s could be found on excursion trains - look on the likes of Flickr and you'll find pictures of them with mk1 and mk2 sets.

From time to time you'd find a mk4 set away from the ECML. They ran into Manchester Piccadilly on a couple of occasions.

How different are the various types of Mk4? We manage with Dapol's Mk3 and the various loco vs hst versions not being 100% correct.


Steven B

This early formation with the buffer HSTs would be the sole reason for my rule 1 purchase in the hypothetical release world.

Skyline2uk

When built, the intention was that the class 91 would be used overnight on parcels and possibly freightliner trains. I'm not sure this happened, but there are plenty of other options.

Test run with Mk1 and non-air-con Mk2:
https://flic.kr/p/rjRZjq

Leading a buffer fitted HST blunt end first:
https://flic.kr/p/2fd88GH

Pointy end at front of HST set:
https://flic.kr/p/2jdfQZG

Early on there was also a Hull to Kings Cross where they swapped at Doncaster for a pair of class 31. Train used non-air-con Mk2:
https://flic.kr/p/fDnBNw

They were also used for relief trains (short notice, extra capacity). Here's a pair of them with a mix of Mk1, Mk2a/b/c ad Mk2d/e/f:
https://flic.kr/p/fDn3nL

Then there's always a charter rake:
hocolate and cream Mk1s:
https://flic.kr/p/2mmebME
Or Intercity Mk1:
https://flic.kr/p/2ibWrXL
Or Mk2 Pullman:
https://flic.kr/p/LLwi7n



Steven B

That said, ideally you need a Mk4 set!
DVT - different type to the Mk3 Dapol already do; They're the same, but different! There's also variations through the years - privatisation saw the addition of a bulbous antenna pod for example.

Of the coaches (FO, FOD, TSO, TSOD, TSOE and RSB), there are two main body styles. The RSB buffet car has typically shallow windows at the buffet end and additional vents on the roof.

The standard coaches share the same body shell, but with differing interiors. The TSOE (tourist second open end) was used on the end of the train the Class 91 coupled to. As the train ran as a fixed set there was no corridor connection on one end. The old Farish model included this detail; they used a separate plug-in part for the end detail meaning it was simple to replicate this detail (and put it on the wrong end of the coach!).

The standard body shell has eight main windows and two smaller square windows. These smaller windows are at the same end of the coach as the toilets (i.e. the coach is handed). The biggest complication to making a model occurred during privatisation era. The outer window of the "A" side (square windows to the right) was plated over, with the inner window replaced by a sheet that fitted in the window opening. Ideally Dapol would need to allow for this in their tooling (although the inner square window could be simply painted.

Would we be happy if Dapol made the same compromises as they did for the Mk3, where the roof vents aren't correct for one type and a single buffet car molding is used for several real life versions?


Steven B