Supply and demand and reduced/scarcity of supply pushing up prices is not a new phenomena nor is it responsible for making modelling a rich man's hobby. There is more to the hobby than simply buying and/or collecting scarce RTR, and it can still be undertaken for a relatively modest outlay.

Quote from: Bazza on May 02, 2023, 12:22:06 PM
. There is more to the hobby than simply buying and/or collecting scarce RTR, and it can still be undertaken for a relatively modest outlay.

It's not  a case of buying rare/scarce models - it's buying new items with over £100 plus price tags for RTR items. We obviously disagree on "relatively modest outlay".

Sorry for going off subject of UM.

Price, especially on items that are no longer made, is entirely down to supply and demand. People will only pay what they think it is worth paying for the pleasure of owning something. Nobody is ever forced to buy a model loco.

At the Bristol show last Saturday a trader was trying to sell two Union Mills locomotives for £129.99 each , second hand and DC , he also had a GWR railcar £109.95 it was in its box - all black meaning it was a old model. Two other traders had UM`s for £95. Some people must have deep pockets.

Tony. 

Quote from: geofff on May 02, 2023, 12:56:11 PM

It's not  a case of buying rare/scarce models - it's buying new items with over £100 plus price tags for RTR items. We obviously disagree on "relatively modest outlay".

Union Mills are no longer manufactured so new ones are now effectively rare and scarce.
And it is possible to pick up new RTR locomotives for under £100 plus there are still secondhand bargains to be had. Besides you don't need to continually and regularly spend large amounts on new locos. Other aspects of the hobby can be had a lot cheaper such as wagon kits from the NGS.

And some traders have stock they never sell because it's too dear. In the 90's I used to go to shows and swap sets in Suffolk and Essex, and there were traders with the same old Minitrix, Peco and original Farish items on their stalls for months, if not years. Nothing was particularly rare, and I wonder how these people ever made a living. Sell it a little cheaper and get stock flowing is surely better then hanging on forever for a higher price?

Dave

Quote from: Chris Morris on May 02, 2023, 01:48:29 PM
. Nobody is ever forced to buy a model loco.

Chris,

But the requirements of a model railway are track , rolling stock and a loco. Second hand is an option, but without the skills to at least service the loco means another £25 to get it working properly.

Once again, it's the law of supply and demand.

If they are not available new any more it becomes a case of how much do you want to pay for owning one? And not just UM locos, or indeed any model. I wish I could still buy a real running E type Jag for about 5k......

If you think it's too much, you're not forced to buy, and, at least in modelling terms, it's not life or death. But ido agree with Dave, some dealers and also private sellers seem to have big ideas about what things, not just models, are worth.

Martyn

Who would have liked a couple of UM tender drives for projects, but will now have to come up with plan B.

Quote from: Tonye on May 02, 2023, 02:42:08 PM
At the Bristol show last Saturday a trader was trying to sell two Union Mills locomotives for £129.99 each ...

"trying to sell" doesn't mean they will sell at that price.  They may take an offer (traders usually do for second hand stuff)  or find they have to reduce stuff until it finds its going rate.

Quote from: Southerngooner on May 02, 2023, 04:50:23 PM
And some traders have stock they never sell because it's too dear. ... the same old Minitrix, Peco and original Farish items on their stalls for months, if not years.

There's a regular trader at my local club's show, every year I take a look and he still has many of the same models I remember seeing several years pre-covid (and passed by as overpriced).  You'd think he'd notice they're just not selling and drop the price to something more reasonable, just to create turnover. Seeing the same stock again and again doesn't go down well with me

Quote from: geofff on May 02, 2023, 05:08:54 PM
Second hand is an option, but without the skills to at least service the loco means another £25 to get it working properly.

It's more a case of learning what to look for to judge the decent second hand models from the rubbish.  If buying from a trader at a show always ask to see it running either on the trader's own test track or see if they'll take it to a nearby layout to test?  If they can't/won't then walk away.

The vast majority of my locos I buy second hand on ebay at good prices and in great condition.  Sometimes bought in the knowledge that a small part is missing (eg. a buffer) which I know I can source or 3D print a replacement for little cost. 

Occasionally I'll take a chance on a model which is a non-runner or probably going to need a service but only if it's very cheap (say around £20 or so).  I am experienced at servicing locos and I accept there are many who can't or don't feel confident about this aspect.  I've had some real bargains that only needed very minor work (eg. my one-and-only UM B12 was sold as non-runner and just needed the tender wire re-attaching to the loco ), and some which needed a lot of stripping down and new parts bought or created but that's an enjoyable challenge in itself  

Quote from: ntpntpntp on May 02, 2023, 05:39:14 PM

Quote from: geofff on May 02, 2023, 05:08:54 PM
Second hand is an option, but without the skills to at least service the loco means another £25 to get it working properly.

Occasionally I'll take a chance on a model which is a non-runner or probably going to need a service but only if it's very cheap (say around £20 or so). 

I was very lucky last month and picked up a non-tested loco - sent it to Dr Al and the diagnosis was that it just had not been run-in for long enough: but new items are so expensive - but particularly for new-comers or low income modelers.

I'll most miss the tender drives, I've used quite a few under white metal kits and scratch builds.
I consider my best Ebay purchase a Fleischmann 7161 listed as a non runner, £25, I wanted the chassis for a Langley S15 kit, when it arrived I did a quick test, yep dead, but controller showed a dead short, after further investigation I found the "headlight" bulb blown, removed it, loco ran perfectly. back in 2014 I had purchased a new motor for a 7161 I'd had since 1974, £40, I consider £1 a year as very nice thankyou

If you want a cheap loco I suggest you join The N Gauge Society and buy a Hunslett Shunter for under £90 which is already to run.

 i havent yet found the one remaining UM loco to complete my collection...namely the prince of wales in fictitious BR livery.

however---on my fave subject --ebay.

Ive had more duffers this year than ever.

a fleischmann br80  that turned out to be a roco in a fmann box.--partial refund agreed

a Farish royal scot body only--no powered tender stated in listing--came complete with eccentrics chopped off.  Thats going back

a nice garratt--but with eccentric dangling free ( i fixed that )

now a dapol hall listed as new--box opened but never used--missing wires--drawbar missing a screw ---motor dead as a doornail.  thats going back.

Quote from: Bigmac on May 02, 2023, 09:16:58 PM
on my fave subject --ebay.

Ive had more duffers this year than ever.

a fleischmann br80  that turned out to be a roco in a fmann box.--partial refund agreed

a Farish royal scot body only--no powered tender stated in listing--came complete with eccentrics chopped off.  Thats going back

a nice garratt--but with eccentric dangling free ( i fixed that )

now a dapol hall listed as new--box opened but never used--missing wires--drawbar missing a screw ---motor dead as a doornail.  thats going back.

@Bigmac And what, pray, makes this post relevant to a discussion about Union Mills locos?
Have you perchance posted it in the wrong place?