I'm considering ordering one of the new Dapol A4 releases and my inclination is to go for 60009, which will issue with the early "lion on wheel" BR crest.  My question is, please does anyone know when 60009 changed its crest to the later "lion and wheel" one? 

My problem is that I don't have red/cream carriages, only Gresley maroon ones.  So another way of putting my main question is, did 60009 wearing its early crest ever pull Gresley maroon coaches?

My basic railway google-fu tells me that the carriage colours changed in (or from?) 1956 and that the new crest was initiated as part of the Modernisation Plan of 1955.  My understanding is that the crest change was gradual and that some engines never got it, though engines involved with "prestige" services like the A4s were likely to have been a priority.

I think you may be able order an extra tender top, such as the Mallard one in late crest. Worth checking with Dapol and/or DCC Supplies, their spares agent and getting that. You'd then be able to run with late or early crest as the situation suits. Quickly too, as the tender top simply unclips and pulls off.

I'd be interested too, as I would also like to get Union of South Africa in late crest, so please let us know if you try that route.

The A4s changed to the later crest from April 1957 onward as they were shopped.

It would be unlikely for this engine to haul a full rake of maroon coaches with the old crest, as it took time to repaint all the coaches from C+C to maroon, but maroon mixed with crimson and cream is a probability.

There are threads on the Forum about removing transfers and their replacement.

HTH

Martyn

I agree with @martyn and especially so in the case of this locomotive.

As far as I'm aware, the only engine to run with the later BR crest in 1956 and early 1957 was No. 70016.  I understand application to other locomotives commenced in March 1957, firstly at Eastleigh I believe.

'Number Nine' was in Works twice in the period of interest:-

1 March - 5 April 1957
8 October - 18 November 1958

Both were General Repairs - typically, for a Haymarket 'A4', avoiding the summer period.  A repaint would be expected at a General.

60009 was the first 'A4' to receive the new crest, in April 1957.  This was the first version with the lions facing forward on both sides.  After the College of Arms objected, the crest was revised so the lions faced to the left on both sides of the engine.  From October 1958 the 'A4s' began to be given the correct version.

Another important point about 60009 is she received her double chimney at the 1958 General, being the second-last 'A4' to be so fitted (60032, of King's Cross, was last, just over a week later).

I hope you enjoy a model of this particularly fine locomotive.

With best wishes.

John

Many thanks for the excellent replies.  I am brand new to model railways - 60009, if I get it, will be my second engine and I've not laid any track yet (!) - and I'm amazed at the depth of knowledge that people have AND are willing to share so freely.

It's part of what the Forum is for..........

Martyn

That's the idea! 

An excellent question, by the way, and thanks for the informative replies.

I'd like to check if I am getting this right.

Up to April 57, 009 had its old crest, and probably would have been seen pulling a mix of maroon and C&C coaches.  No change required to the model.

For 18 months until October 58 it had the new but "wrong" crest - and the proportion of C&C coaches would probably have reduced.  To depict this, I'd have to change the crest on the model (assuming "wrong" transfers are available).

After October 58, 009 is extremely likely to have the new crest, modified after the College of Arms objection.  And maroon coaches were becoming ever more predominant.  But 009 would also have its new double chimney, so while the crest could be sorted out (by getting a new tender top or changing the transfers) the model is likely to be "structurally" wrong in this respect.  Thus to use 009 with maroon coaches only one would need a model with the right (new, modifed) crest and the right chimney.  And that could only be done if Dapol have modelled the engines correctly across time to show the different chimneys and one was prepared to get a "new crest" Mallard and change the name plates and numbering.  That would be a couple of steps too far for me! 

Thus a fully accurate 009 set in 1960, the year I was born, pulling maroons only looks impractical for me but one set pre April 57 is do-able by stumping up for a few C&C coaches, if they are available. 

Or I can compromise for 1960 by following suggestions above to get the crest sorted and da*n the chimney.

Thanks again, all.
Ian

I think you've got it, Ian.

The proportion and crimson and cream carriages in a train would change from a majority in 1957 to just a few by 1960.  There were still some around after that but, by then, they were getting rarer.

The exception to this is prestige named trains, where an effort was made to get them all in the new maroon livery (apart from the Pullman cars) on the ER/NER/ScR.  For named trains, the formation would normally be the new BR Mark 1 carriages - or Pullmans.  Fortunately, there are lots of excellent photographs from this period to help you and 'The Elizabethan' - non-stop KX-Waverley in six-and-a-half hours - has been extensively written about in great detail.

It appears BR was in no hurry to change the 'offending' crest and did so when stocks run out.  The correct version would normally have been applied at a repaint during a General repair.  For some engines, a tender exchange might have achieved this as you suggest, but not for 'Number Nine' which had the same tender between 1948 and 1963.

I assume 60009 received the correct version during her time in Works between 8 Oct and 18 Nov 1958 - the same repair that saw the double chimney fitted.  An agreeable session looking at photographs will confirm this.

If you could kindly post a photograph or link to a photograph of the Dapol model you have in mind, that might be helpful.  I looked at the Dapol website but didn't see one.

With all good wishes

John

John,
Thank you for our repsonse.  To answer your question, I don't think Dapol have yet released a photograph of U of SA; at least, I've not seen one.
Ian

I've had the union on order for nearly 2 years may come xmas I have a new class 37 any ideas on how to get body shell off been told thin piece of card helps