I still don't see that any of that is of any relevance. If they were £5,000 if someone wanted to spend that then all power to them. I wouldn't. I have to wonder if people go into estate agents and rant about house prices.

Quote from: njee20 on September 12, 2022, 06:36:27 PM
I still don't see that any of that is of any relevance. If they were £5,000 if someone wanted to spend that then all power to them. I wouldn't. I have to wonder if people go into estate agents and rant about house prices.

It's taking a very large amount of willpower not to say

"Have you never read the XXXXX XXXX"

But I won't 

And your point is well made

Skyline2uk

There are a few issues here.

Firstly, we are coming to the end of cheap Chinese manufacturing. IIRC, Fleischmann have moved some production to Vietnam and Eastern Europe, but nonetheless it will be more expensive.

Secondly, UK models were very underpriced for many years, and Bachmann realised they could rebuild their margins by putting up their prices. I think the penny dropped with the OO gauge Blue Pullman. Model railways in the UK are a niche market which means low volumes and high margins to be financially worthwhile for businesses.

Thirdly, UK disposable incomes have stagnated over the last 15 years unlike many other rich countries. It is a case of people in this country being poorer relative to other advanced economies than we were back then.

Models in the 1970s were much poorer quality but much cheaper than today (after inflation). That is at a time of lower disposable incomes. The answer I am afraid is cough up or demand models which don't have hundreds of separate parts to be glued on by a far Eastern factory worker. Or model a railway with a larger market (i.e. USA or Japan) where manufacturers can offset a lower margin with a higher volume of sales.

Union  Mills  are a  small   company  that   seem to offer value  for   money on  their  models  and   produce small  batches ,  and  if  the   demand  is   there   they produce  more  to   suit   their   market  so   why   cant   the   big   boys   do   the   same,  granted  the   models  are   rather   basic  and   not   so   well   detailed  but   the    average   modeler  can   enhance  them   at   a   reasonable  cost,     

Huge difference between a "cottage industry" like UM and a large manufacturer with a number of brands and massive portfolio of product, all competing for production slots at the factory which require the production line to be set up for each batch. 

As far as I know Union Mills is a one-man band. He doesn't need to employ sales, personnel, payroll, health and safety etc people who are essential to the running of a larger concern. As he does the manufacturing himself he has no need to travel to China periodically to liaise with the factory. It isn't possible to offer a large and varied range of complex products in this way because there aren't enough hours in a day.

I think both Nick and Ali make especially helpful points.  In relation to Union Mills I should like to add the following:

The first is that the models, whilst absolutely excellent +++++ (and I rarely use anything else) do not have the same standards of detail or decoration that modellers have come to expect from other manufacturers.  There is a recent video from Rapido Trains which addresses the manufacturing costs of detailed models.  This video is on YouTube and there is a link to it on the Forum.

Secondly, Mr Heard carefully regulates his business to remain below the threshold for VAT.  Given how much of the production is done in-house, the input tax liability, which needs to be paid for by models sold, is likely to be minimised.  And, with no output tax, purchasers are saved a considerable sum.  UK standard rate, at present, is 20% for example. 

With best wishes

John

As usual,  a lot of relevant points have been made.

Personally,  over recent years I have curtailed my expenditure on Ngauge locomotives and coaches due to price inflation. Its not that I'm short of a few bob, I just feel the value has diminished.
I spent £70 at Tings this year, mainly on old kits at AA. Spending £4-500 at such a show would have been typical in years gone by.
I realise the N market has/ is becoming very niche. So I have have also changed to suit. I would rather spend money on a sound decoder and upgrade a few cherished models,  rather than half heartedly just adding to the collection. You pays your money and makes your choice.

Quote from: honestjudge on September 14, 2022, 09:16:39 AM
As usual,  a lot of relevant points have been made.

At the end of the day, we all have to decide what an item is worth to us in our own little world.  What is 'silly money' to one person, could be a bargain to another. I know I have paid over the odds for an item I particularly wanted. As honestjudge puts it -

Quote from: honestjudge on September 14, 2022, 09:16:39 AM
You pays your money and makes your choice.

Hey, I bought a GWR railcar from you, in the wrong livery.... I love it! 

You smooth salesman, you 

I would argue there are a number of different sub-markets in N gauge and that Farish and Union Mills are aimed at different sub sectors. Farish now go for very high end models at a premium price. The fact that they continue with this strategy suggests that it is successful. There are those that want models that are as close to perfect as possible and new tool Farish items certainly fit the bill. Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. I see both these strategies as being worthwhile and catering for differing interests in our broad hobby. Long may they both continue to do well. I think Revolution are also quite high end. Dapol occupy a sort of middle ground with well detailed models that are usually reasonably priced. Kato are in a simialr ball park with their 800. Rapido and Sonic probably sit somewhere between Dapol and Farish and are providing a very useful source of new tooling products. Just at the moment the us N gaugers are rather well looked after!

Most of my stock is Dapol or Farish but I expect to make purchases from Rapido, Revolution and Sonic during 2023. I must confess to baulking a little at some of the Farish prices but I can see the value of the detail; I have yet to buy a high end Farish item simply because they haven't yet produced anything that fits my needs. The new Farish 158 will make me think about replacing my early Farish 158, ok it will be expensive but you can see the work that has gone into it and therefore the value. I don't own any Union Mills locos yet. One day I might buy one but it will have to have quite a bit of detailing work done to it before it is allowed on my layout. That to me is the great thing about Union Mills - they are cheap enough and simple enough to make detailing and repainting worthwhile; after detailing and repainting you will end up with a better model than what you started with. Conversely there is a problem for the modeller with the latest Farish products; if you do any work on them other than much needed weathering, they will almost certainly be worse than when they came out of the box.

Quote from: Chris Morris on September 14, 2022, 11:14:11 AM
[...] Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. [...]

I think that's a very good analysis, thank you, Chris.  Perhaps I can add another important factor, at least to me.  Union Mills models are British-made.  I like to think about which economies I support when indulging in discretionary purchases for my hobby.

With best wishes.

John 

Quote from: Train Waiting on September 14, 2022, 06:34:18 PM

Quote from: Chris Morris on September 14, 2022, 11:14:11 AM
[...] Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. [...]

I think that's a very good analysis, thank you, Chris.  Perhaps I can add another important factor, at least to me.  Union Mills models are British-made.  I like to think about which economies I support when indulging in discretionary purchases for my hobby.

With best wishes.

John

I always like to buy Peco wagons. British made, well priced and they look fine when trundling by.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on September 11, 2022, 09:52:02 PM
I still struggle with things like general run-of-the-mill German coaches costing more than £20 each brand new as that's the figure still lodged in my head from a couple of decades ago. Nowadays they're easily double that.  Fortunately ebay is a great source of new and nearly-new bargains

For example: Six vgc German coaches for 53 quid from Anoraks Anonymous at Tings

Quote from: Train Waiting on September 14, 2022, 06:34:18 PM

Quote from: Chris Morris on September 14, 2022, 11:14:11 AM
[...] Union Mills locos are aimed at the sector that doesn't want to pay too much and are happy with a reasonable but not highly detailed model which works well. [...]

I think that's a very good analysis, thank you, Chris.  Perhaps I can add another important factor, at least to me.  Union Mills models are British-made.  I like to think about which economies I support when indulging in discretionary purchases for my hobby.

With best wishes.

John

The Isle of Man isn't part of Great Britain, it is a Crown dependency and also a tax haven.