Yep food for thought!

I don't have a copy of the rulebook to hand but believe I heard the rule states all lapped cars be allowed to pass the safety car to unlap themselves and the safety car then comes in the lap after that. If I remember correctly (I'm still fuming at the whole injustice/incompetence of the stewards) that meant the race would have finished under the safety car and Hamilton would have won.
Mercedes took the track position stance twice rather than bring Hamilton into the pits. The second time was because when Masi said no one could unlap themselves, Mercedes assumed under the rules Hamilton would win. When Masi then changed his mind and did not allow all 10 cars to pass the safety car Mercedes were hung out to dry with no chance.

There have been complaints about the way Perez held up Hamilton in order for Max to close up but I just thought it was a brilliant tactic/ piece of driving that had me on the edge of my seat. Hamilton said on the radio it was dangerous driving but I completely disagree. It's a great shame he did not have the same back up later in the season with Bottas who, to my mind, deserved no pay for this weekend

Excellent points made Mick and I make you 100% correct. 

I've lost all respect for F1's new management (I'd already lost all respect for Michael Mas). This race was pretty much managed and manipulated to make a 'story' rather than have a valid and fair result and now it's going to be resolved (eventually) by a well deserved lawsuit.

I'd hope it will at least result in Masi being very publicly fired as Race Director. He's hopeless.

The only comforting thought is that this is probably the last championship Red Bull will win in F1. Now they have to build their own engines from the bits Honda left behind and have no chance of attracting a new engine manufacturer after a history of toxic relations with every engine supplier they've ever had, they're going to drop behind the rest of the field as development progresses.

I have nothing against Red Bull and have admired them and their drivers over the years.
I can imagine Toto Wolff will push his complaint all the way to Paris but still think the FIA will protect their own back regardless.
Being the saddo I am, I keep a spreadsheet of who won what race since 2016 but refuse to fill in this race's winner yet

The rule is "any lapped cars" NOT ALL LAPPED CARS

Now I'm a die hard Ferrari F1 fan, I detest Lewis Hamilton and his fake points of view on EVERY worldwide topic, I'm certainly not a Max or Red Bull fan either.

Toto Wolff has behaved totally out of order for most of the season and is as bigger  as his No 1 driver.

Now yes, it was farcical but the whole season has been. But for these supposed team principles to be able to cry to Masi about what "they believe " is fair is beyond a joke.

If were after conspiracy theories, Latifi stuffed it into the wall on dirty rear tyres, Mercedes powered team! Was the plan to crash in the hope or belief that they would finish the race behind the safety car giving Hamilton another title!

Last season wasnt really a season with 2 races held at the same track and how many races missing?

Can Hamilton really see that as a fair season to of claimed his seventh title? Would he really want to win his eighth in the stewards office??

Off course he would because he believes he does no wrong. F1 under Liberties ownership is absolutely horrendous, nothing to do with being the pinnacle of motorsport just a money making engineered farce!!!

Well, the lawyers are into it now.

Merc is preparing to sue Masi personally, and the FIA, Liberty Media etc. for damages.

The reaction I'm seeing at Merc right now reminds me of Toyota back in the mid-90's era of the World Rally Championship.

They had some very clever technology on the intercooler of their turbocharger that before the start of the season they asked the FIA to give a technical ruling as to whether it was legal to use, or not.   FIA agreed - in writing - that it was legal.   I've personally seen the document, so I know this is an absolute fact.

Anyway, after they won nearly every event in 1995, the technology was "suddenly" ruled as illegal at the end of the season, with no appeal option available.   They were banned for a year and docked every championship point they had accumulated in the 1995 season.

Toyota was so utterly disgusted with the whole affair that they just quit the sport entirely.

They switched activities over to an American series where they made a lot more money and the WRC field size dropped by about 25% in 1996 and 1997.

Imagine what would happen if Merc pulled out of F1.   It's too late to design new cars around different engines at McLaren, Aston or Williams in time for next season.   That's half the grid that would be sidelined.   FIA may have seriously fubar'd this time.

Merc is already heavily invested in non-IC technology competitions - it is clearly the way of the future for their primary product - the car range they sell to the public.

If they feel seriously aggrieved, there really aren't a lot of solid reasons NOT to walk away from IC based motorsport entirely - and who would replace them?   I don't see anyone lining up.

Merc don't *NEED* F1.   But could F1 continue to prosper if Merc bail out?

I don't think the debate over this race is going to be "over" for quite some time.

Ross.

PS - I'm not really a Lewis fan.   Ricciardo and Norris are my guys.   But at least he's not a dirty driver like Max is.   My complaint is that Masi chose to turn an 8 second dominant lead that was clearly going to secure this race and the resulting championship, into a zero seconds lead with the other guy on tires that were guaranteed to win.   I'm sorry, but it simply isn't Masi's job to do anything that will clearly overturn a race and championship result in this way.   If he's that crooked, he needs to stand for a seat in the US Congress.

Quote from: exmouthcraig on December 12, 2021, 10:34:25 PM
The rule is "any lapped cars" NOT ALL LAPPED CARS

I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to this article, particularly the section under "What happened on the last lap"

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/athletics/news/max-verstappen-lewis-hamilton-last-lap-controversy/140ggqhx8eu481qf9dejfl2czl

Quote from: exmouthcraig on December 12, 2021, 10:34:25 PM

Now I'm a die hard Ferrari F1 fan,

*Cough* secret deal with the FIA to not say what the penalty was that they got for cheating by deliberately leaking oil into their combustion for a power boost in 2019 that mysteriously left them with the lowest powered engine in 2020 *Cough*

@Newportnobby




@zwilnik yeah, but that has nothing to do with this years farce. Also dont be too sure Honda have just left a pile of bits for RedBull to build an engine from, they were always going to be doing this from 2022.

Merc GP had a massive cash injection from INEOS, no surprise that they throw their toys out the pram, and hand the current outfit over to them and just become an engine supplier.

The clown that runs the show can just trot 5 garages down the pit lane and run the Aston Martin team that he personally owns so much of.

Quote from: RBTKraisee on December 12, 2021, 10:41:54 PM


PS - I'm not really a Lewis fan.   Ricciardo and Norris are my guys.   But at least he's not a dirty driver like Max is.   My complaint is that Masi chose to turn an 8 second dominant lead that was clearly going to secure this race and the resulting championship, into a zero seconds lead with the other guy on tires that were guaranteed to win.   I'm sorry, but it simply isn't Masi's job to do anything that will clearly overturn a race and championship result in this way.   If he's that crooked, he needs to stand for a seat in the US Congress.

You've hit the nail right bang smack on the head!

The whole season has been a mess. Sadly, today's episode is the last straw and has put me completely off watching or following F1 in future. I feel real empathy for Lewis who seems to have been let down by Mercedes in some ways in this race but more blatantly I feel the control of races this season has been appaling. Max, love him or loath him is an imature young fella that thinks being agressive and barging his way around is acceptable.

A sad day indeed for what used to be a sport.

@exmouthcraig
I'm sure that report justifies the actions of the Race Director.
Whether it is the case or not will depend on a headbutting between the FIA, Mercedes and Red Bull. Whatever the outcome of that future meeting I suspect the result will stand as I cannot see anyone retrospectively amending the race decision with all that entails.
At the very least it shows the rules need clarifying so all understand and that all rules are applied to the word and not left open to an individual's interpretation.

On a separate note, I am furious with a certain David Coulthard who seemed to think Hamilton was in the wrong in that first lap incident. I have lost count over the years of the number of times Coulthard has said "when overtaking you must leave room for the other guy as he cannot make his car just disappear"
Verstappen made a desperate lunge and took up all the track so Hamilton had to take avoiding action. Maybe he would have been better off letting Verstappen torpedo him and hoping the stewards would dock points such that Verstappen came 2nd to him.

Absolutely brilliant result, and Michael Masi's classic riposte to Toto "its a motor race, we are car racing" sums it all up, he didn't want to finish the last race under a safety car, all credit to him. it's just sour grapes on Mercedes part.

Ian

Quote from: Newportnobby on December 13, 2021, 10:26:39 AM
@exmouthcraig
Verstappen made a desperate lunge and took up all the track so Hamilton had to take avoiding action. Maybe he would have been better off letting Verstappen torpedo him and hoping the stewards would dock points such that Verstappen came 2nd to him.

Why? Max didn't do anything different to what LH has done to others all season, about time someone put Ham on the receiving end, roll on 2022 and hope George Russel can get the better of Hamilton then we will have less of his moaning to put up with.

2021 saw three incidents that could have, at the least put a driver in hospital, one farcical 'race' at Spa in weather that patently would never allow racing to start and started behind the Safety Car, with too little time for more than half distance to be completed before dark, purely to award points.
Far too many Stewards' decisions having little or no sense.
Having followed F1 since the 1960s, I'm done!
While Stewards have always made 'odd' decisions, there have been far too many this year. I have no wish to see any more races rigged, like the last one, or worse, a driver killed.

A sad, sad day. I wish all the drivers well for next year, but I won't be there.