A lot of the list was offered by someone who is no longer in the business.  The 21/29 story is well documented on here why it failed.

I actually think lack of passion from other manufacturers is an unfair charge (nor do I think Hornby are necessarily a great example for all sorts of difficulties!) - plenty of the people at both Barwell (Farish) and Chirk (Dapol) have a passion for railways and indeed in some cases N gauge railways. I'm not sure I could accuse any of them of lacking passion for what they do.

That isn't to say that I always agree with the decisions that those companies make but I'm sure they think the same about Revolution! Every company has different priorities and has to set its own agenda (along as those align with their customers!) and find its own way - we all have different strengths and weaknesses (companies and people!).

Cheers Mike

I agree with Mike, moreover "the Chinese" is a bit of an unfair generalisation, ok Bachmann may have a Chinese parent company, but that's not to say there's no UK presence, quite the opposite, so it seems a bit moot.

Quote from: red_death on May 27, 2020, 08:53:51 PM

I actually think lack of passion from other manufacturers is an unfair charge (nor do I think Hornby are necessarily a great example for all sorts of difficulties!) - plenty of the people at both Barwell (Farish) and Chirk (Dapol) have a passion for railways and indeed in some cases N gauge railways. I'm not sure I could accuse any of them of lacking passion for what they do.

'Unfair' is possibly a wrong word to use, but I think I know what @honk843 is getting, and is caused IMHO by the lack of communication by many of the majors with their market. Now maybe the guys at RevolutioN are spoiling us with their regular Facebook sessions but Dapol's Digest forum is a farce and Farish don't even bother, other than through the Collector's Club. Dave Jones attempted to embrace the NGF and RMWeb until he distanced himself from all fora.
I have the feeling the N gauge voice is not listened to by any other than RevolutioN at the present time and so, basically, we get what we are given by someone who thinks they know what we want and who is quite happy to string us along with promised dates and tie models up someone else could produce.
Apart from my frequently voiced opinion of Farish rolling stock prices, I think we still get a decent deal cost wise even though it's difficult to forget the 'good times' of several years back.

Quote from: Newportnobby on May 27, 2020, 09:46:42 PM
I have the feeling the N gauge voice is not listened to by any other than RevolutioN at the present time and so, basically, we get what we are given by someone who thinks they know what we want and who is quite happy to string us along with promised dates and tie models up someone else could produce.

It's very easy to talk the talk ... but the manufacturers need to be confident that we will spend the spend.

I recall someone having a go at the Dapol representative at the NGS AGM back in 2013 or thereabouts ... and he came back fighting with the fact that Dapol had listened to what modellers said they wanted - crimson Gresleys - so they had produced crimson Gresleys and got their fingers badly burned which left them very disinclined to listen to society surveys rather than their own market research.

I'm afraid I have to take the manufacturers' part here. It's a simple fact of commercial life that you cannot afford to have your working capital tied up in unsold stock. You have to turn your working capital over to make a profit, and reinvest it, and turn it over again. The days of massive catalogue inventory are long gone, and we all have to accept that. As recent events have shown, this doesn't just apply to model railway equipment. It applies equally to mundane products like ... well ... toilet rolls ...

Hello all,

Just a comment on the Chinese manufacturers... I cannot speak for all, of course, but I have met three of the Chinese designers we work with and I guarantee they are very passionate about what they do, very proud of the standards they set and more knowledgeable than me about many British prototypes!

And anyone who was at TINGS or Warley last year could have met Sam - who is behind Sonic Models - as he travelled from Hong Kong for both shows.

Sometimes of course they get things wrong, and we do our best at the CAD stage to eliminate any errors - but it is not through any lack of care or professionalism.

Also comparisons with models produced in yesteryear can be a little misleading as the quantities produced were vastly different - as has been pointed out, in the 1970s there were something like a dozen N gauge locos to buy.  Now, counting all eras and units, there must be hundreds of different models available, so sales of each are proportionately lower and therefore prices will be higher.

Cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on May 27, 2020, 11:21:40 PM
Also comparisons with models produced in yesteryear can be a little misleading as the quantities produced were vastly different - as has been pointed out, in the 1970s there were something like a dozen N gauge locos to buy.  Now, counting all eras and units, there must be hundreds of different models available, so sales of each are proportionately lower and therefore prices will be higher.

Well ... there were far fewer N gauge modellers back then, and disposable incomes are now somewhat higher, so it may not be quite so simple as this ... but I think you are probably right regardless. Plus, of course, there are far more eras to model now than there were back then ... and the recent eras which hadn't been invented in the 1970s tend to see far more different liveries for the same prototype (1970s salesman: "Class 26 diesel, sir? Yes, certainly ... Minitrix make one of them. Did you want it in old-fashioned two-tone green, or bodern blue?"). Modern modellers, on the whole, seem to be more fastidious than the pioneers of N about insisting on having exactly the "right" livery for their modelling project. I recall a layout article in the Railway Modeller from about 1973 in which the layout builder had wanted his layout to have a LSWR feel to it. He was running one or two Highfield bespoke LSWR locomotives alongside the first two Graham Farish offerings ... GWR 94xx pannier and GER Holden tank. I cannot see many modern modellers who wished to evoke a sense of a particular time and location choosing to buy stock from such alien geographical locations and time period if the stock in the livery they wanted was not available ... and this too must tend to suppress sales volumes.

We are definitely spoilt for choice these days.  Reviewing Hornby Dublo has made me realise the slim pickings our forebears had.  May be like a lot of "toys" (no offence intended) the imagination element has been replaced by actual fidelity and detail (not sure about robustness though  ).

Kind regards

Paddy

Hi All,

I would just like to preface these remarks by saying that I'm currently building a small, Highland-style 80's fuel depot scene (inspired by Fort William, Lairg and Lochavullin). It uses a few recycled kit parts and a lot of 1mm rod. Total cost about a tenner. The best way to ease the shock of RTR prices is and always has been to devise budget modelling solutions (which are usually far more satisfying than buying a piece of RTR anyway).

Comparing house prices in, say, 1990 with today doesn't really work as there are over 10 million more people
living in the UK now than then, and they haven't built 10 million more houses over the same period. Also, the quality of houses built in the UK hasn't gone through a quantum leap of improvement over that time...

But how about this comparison between two items that have changed a great deal over thirty years...

RRP of a Golf GTi in 1990: £12,148*         RRP today: £25,845
RRP of a Farish 37 in 1990: £40*   *         RRP today: £139.95

(*about £22k in today's money / **about £75 in today's money, which is what 1990's 37's go for on eBay!)

Is a current Golf GTi as different from a 1990 one as a contemporary Farish 37 is from a 1990 one? Who can say... I'd love to get a similar comparison using a 1990 and contemporary Ford Fiesta but can't find any figures for the former's new price easily on the internet. I smell a conspiracy!

What I would love to know is how

current prices
batch production
levels of availability
specifications of contemporary RTR
breadth of ranges
current state of the nation's mainstream, industrial and preserved railways
pandemics

have affected the total number of people in the UK who model railways. But no hard figures exist, just internet waffle (such as this email). I would also love someone to catalogue every single model railway vehicle in regular use on a layout in the UK and work out the average and median age of those vehicles. But then, I would also like a solid gold toilet seat for my birthday, and there's no way that's going to happen either.

Regards,
Mat

Quote from: MatP on May 30, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
But then, I would also like a solid gold toilet seat for my birthday, and there's no way that's going to happen either.

There's nothing good about a solid gold seat
As it's colder than a wooden one in winter
The difference, of course, with a solid gold seat
Is you're far less likely to get a splinter

Quote from: MatP on May 30, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
Is a current Golf GTi as different from a 1990 one as a contemporary Farish 37 is from a 1990 one?

Sorry to snip and single out a line, but to give a perspective - it's an unequivocal yes from me!

As in, I'd never buy a pre-China made model.

They look inferior, the model detail lacks fidelity and their mechanics are simpler. They also don't come ready for DCC.

All my stock is the latest tooling from ~2011 onwards.

I appreciate that makes me sound elitist, but for perspective I only started in the hobby two years back. This certainly limits my nostalgia for older models!

All said, if someone is looking to get in to the hobby on a budget, they can pick up second-hand older items at half or less of the current era/spec models.

As a Golf GTI owner I feel qualified to comment on the above

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. Yes, a modern Golf GTI is a quantum leap from a 1990 one but that's because cars full stop have come on. British N gauge has evolved far faster than (say) Continental N, arguably bringing it more in line with other offerings.

I'm not sure there really is a fair comparison - and it's not like you can buy at 1990 prices, so you just have to consider if purchases are worth asking prices. If not, you don't buy.

Like Ted I also don't own any Poole era models, and wouldn't buy them. I've got a couple of 90s, but all later Chinese releases, and actually I don't use them because they look poor alongside other contemporary models. However I totally understand why people buy/use them.

The transformation in cars is nothing short of amazing.  The specifications, build quality and performance of your standard family car today would have only been found on "luxury" models 20+ years ago.

Almost all cars these days have alloy wheels, electric windows, power steering, A/C, airbags, ABS - this list goes on and on.

I remember being really excited about my first Ford Escort as it had a built-in cassette deck, sunroof and two-Tom paint (remember that?).  That would have been back in the early 1990s.  No alloy wheels, electric windows or power steering though.

I think new houses are the biggest disappointment (in the UK).  Their cost has gone through the roof (excuse the pun) but the size, quality (value for money) is poor.  There is also very little innovation.  I would expect new houses to come with solar panels, water recycling, built in networking, fibre optic connections and loft spaces that are easy to convert to additional living space if required.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Kind regards

Paddy

Quote from: Paddy on May 30, 2020, 10:33:52 AM

I think new houses are the biggest disappointment (in the UK).  Their cost has gone through the roof (excuse the pun) but the size, quality (value for money) is poor.  There is also very little innovation.  I would expect new houses to come with solar panels, water recycling, built in networking, fibre optic connections and loft spaces that are easy to convert to additional living space if required.

Paddy

You'll get no argument from me on that one. Spending a lot of time in other people's properties (no, I'm not a burglar, I do property maintenance) I've seen just about every era of British house building. Frankly, as a nation, we've never been good at house building, but the current crop are abysmal. Recently in our village Taylor Wimpey built 70 houses. They planned to fit gas boilers until they realised there was no gas in the village, by which time the foundations and half the walls were up, meaning that some houses have to have an oil hose dragged through the house to refill the tank as there is no rear access. Other houses can't use a 1/3rd of their gardens as they have buried oil tanks. They all had a letter prior to the first Christmas to remind them NOT to store the decorations in the loft as the lofts are not designed to take a load. To cap it all, the guy who bought the show house has had all kinds of grief. They reinstated a internal wall when they passed it over to him, but with a 1" step in it. They came back to make it level with the existing wall amd while they were doing that the ceiling in the lounge fell down!

These poor people pay a premium for a new house. They sell them off plan so there's no incentive to reach a decent standard.

As regards progress, you are so correct. There's no reason they shouldn't be legislated to install solar PV, solar water heating and rainwater harvesting. The house building fraternity does not, and never has been bothered by anything other than large, quick profit.

[Just to be clear, I don't necessarily include small independent house builders in this sweeping statement, although many aren't any better than the big boys.]

Sorry to veer sharply off topic, it's a pet peeve, albeit it one that keeps me reasonably gainfully employed.

Quote from: emjaybee on May 30, 2020, 11:14:21 AM

Quote from: Paddy on May 30, 2020, 10:33:52 AM

I think new houses are the biggest disappointment (in the UK).  Their cost has gone through the roof (excuse the pun) but the size, quality (value for money) is poor.  There is also very little innovation.  I would expect new houses to come with solar panels, water recycling, built in networking, fibre optic connections and loft spaces that are easy to convert to additional living space if required.

Paddy

You'll get no argument from me on that one. Spending a lot of time in other people's properties (no, I'm not a burglar, I do property maintenance) I've seen just about every era of British house building. Frankly, as a nation, we've never been good at house building, but the current crop are abysmal. Recently in our village Taylor Wimpey built 70 houses. They planned to fit gas boilers until they realised there was no gas in the village, by which time the foundations and half the walls were up, meaning that some houses have to have an oil hose dragged through the house to refill the tank as there is no rear access. Other houses can't use a 1/3rd of their gardens as they have buried oil tanks. They all had a letter prior to the first Christmas to remind them NOT to store the decorations in the loft as the lofts are not designed to take a load. To cap it all, the guy who bought the show house has had all kinds of grief. They reinstated a internal wall when they passed it over to him, but with a 1" step in it. They came back to make it level with the existing wall amd while they were doing that the ceiling in the lounge fell down!

These poor people pay a premium for a new house. They sell them off plan so there's no incentive to reach a decent standard.

As regards progress, you are so correct. There's no reason they shouldn't be legislated to install solar PV, solar water heating and rainwater harvesting. The house building fraternity does not, and never has been bothered by anything other than large, quick profit.

[Just to be clear, I don't necessarily include small independent house builders in this sweeping statement, although many aren't any better than the big boys.]

Sorry to veer sharply off topic, it's a pet peeve, albeit it one that keeps me reasonably gainfully employed.

not good mike. Hope the neighbour / chap put a claim in. Do tell him about the forum and the angry thread

We moved in to our new Persimmon home back in 2001 with a young family.  All I will say is that we then spent the next two years (I kid you not) fighting with Persimmon to get all the faults fixed.  I am not talking about minor items either - the hot/cold taps were plumbed the wrong way around.  There were nails sticking out of the skirting board where someone had gone mad with a nail gun.  The kitchen was not installed correctly and the gas hob was condemned.  We had numerous leaks, cracks etc.  Even the toilet in the ensuite could not be used as they built it next to the wall - you could not sit on it!

I vowed never to buy a new house again especially from Persimmon.

Kind regards

Paddy