Quote from: newportnobby on May 02, 2016, 03:12:16 PM
Sorry to repeat myself, David, but unless it gets back to the manufacturer it won't get registered as a return so that's what I'd do. If Rails don't have one that passes inspection then the choice is yours whether to accept a substandard item.

You miss my point, if you open a model you invalidate all warranties and you nullify your consumer rights. 

They are all within their rights to tell you where to go.

If it does not work put it straight back in the box and send it back.

Sorry, but I don't believe I'm missing a point anywhere along the line
My advice to David (twice) has been to return said item to where he purchased it as I'm working on the basis Rails would return it.
I haven't advised anything else and am quite aware that 'opening up' the item invalidates the warranty.

Quote from: newportnobby on May 02, 2016, 08:11:59 PM
Sorry, but I don't believe I'm missing a point anywhere along the line
My advice to David (twice) has been to return said item to where he purchased it as I'm working on the basis Rails would return it.
I haven't advised anything else and am quite aware that 'opening up' the item invalidates the warranty.

I was making a general point to everyone. Not making a point to you. 

Go read what I said again and don't be so sensitive or hasty to respond.

Why do you think that is correct?

If something is faulty then regardless of whether you open it (you might have to open it to ascertain it is faulty eg putting in a decoder) it is still faulty.

On the point of whether a fault is registered if something is not returned to a retailer - that depends entirely on the manufacturer's and retailer's systems! There is no reason why a manufacturer shouldn't include non-returned but reported faults - in some ways it is beneficial to see what is happening (and also to report / complain to the factory).

Cheers Mike

Quote from: red_death on May 03, 2016, 12:21:13 AM
Why do you think that is correct?

If something is faulty then regardless of whether you open it (you might have to open it to ascertain it is faulty eg putting in a decoder) it is still faulty.

On the point of whether a fault is registered if something is not returned to a retailer - that depends entirely on the manufacturer's and retailer's systems! There is no reason why a manufacturer shouldn't include non-returned but reported faults - in some ways it is beneficial to see what is happening (and also to report / complain to the factory).

Cheers Mike

UK Government statute. 

Whatever the shop or manufacturer then chooses to do if you open it up is their choice but they have the legal right to say "not my problem".

On the specific case of decoder fitting, if it is not faulty before you open it, and you then encounter a fault when you open it, you must not try to fix it.

Goods must be returned in a fit and proper state.

An example from the Maplin website

"The item must be in its original as new condition including instructions and accessories and also accompanied by a valid proof of purchase.

In line with The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations, we will accept items back even if you have opened the goods to inspect them. You are entitled to a refund as long as you inform us of your decision to cancel within 14 calendar days from the day after the delivery of goods. "

opened the goods to inspect them not fiddled with then or tried to repair them.

Quote from: Crooked Spire on May 03, 2016, 10:14:15 AM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 03, 2016, 09:56:39 AM
Goods must be returned in a fit and proper state.

An example from the Maplin website

"The item must be in its original as new condition including instructions and accessories and also accompanied by a valid proof of purchase.

In line with The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations, we will accept items back even if you have opened the goods to inspect them. You are entitled to a refund as long as you inform us of your decision to cancel within 14 calendar days from the day after the delivery of goods. "

opened the goods to inspect them not fiddled with then or tried to repair them.

That is a retailers view of the Consumer Rights Act. All retailers will have a different view. There is nothing on the Consumer Rights Act that states that you can't  "open it up", the same as there is nothing that says you must return it in it's original packaging.

The Maplin statements apply to additional rights they give consumers under there own 'Satisfaction Guarantee' in that they accept returns up to 30 days even if they are not faulty (in which case they can stipulate there own conditions). These extra condition do not apply if the product is faulty. 

If you read the section on the return of faulty goods no such conditions are stated, they only want proof of purchase.

OK, not worth the argument, I know when i'm talking to a flat earther.

Are you willing to guarantee anyone on this site you will personally compensate them when they take your advice and are refused a refund having tampered with a model. 

Frankly I will be the first to take you up on this guarantee.

The goods are "manufacturer faulty" until you tamper with them when it then becomes "your fault".  What is so hard to grasp.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 03, 2016, 12:28:19 AM
UK Government statute. 

Whatever the shop or manufacturer then chooses to do if you open it up is their choice but they have the legal right to say "not my problem".

On the specific case of decoder fitting, if it is not faulty before you open it, and you then encounter a fault when you open it, you must not try to fix it.

I think you have to be very careful not to mislead people - we are not talking about people tampering with things or trying to fix it but goods that are faulty from the manufacturer that may not reveal the fault without inspection which requires some opening up. Opening something up is not the same as tampering/fixing.

I'm clearly talking about any attempt to rectify. 

You simply put it back in its box and send it back at the point you spot the fault.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 02, 2016, 09:54:03 PM

Quote from: newportnobby on May 02, 2016, 08:11:59 PM
Sorry, but I don't believe I'm missing a point anywhere along the line
My advice to David (twice) has been to return said item to where he purchased it as I'm working on the basis Rails would return it.
I haven't advised anything else and am quite aware that 'opening up' the item invalidates the warranty.

I was making a general point to everyone. Not making a point to you. 

Go read what I said again and don't be so sensitive or hasty to respond.

Maybe you should not have quoted me, then.
Signed
A Flat Earther

Quote from: red_death on May 03, 2016, 10:49:02 AM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 03, 2016, 12:28:19 AM
UK Government statute. 

Whatever the shop or manufacturer then chooses to do if you open it up is their choice but they have the legal right to say "not my problem".

On the specific case of decoder fitting, if it is not faulty before you open it, and you then encounter a fault when you open it, you must not try to fix it.

I think you have to be very careful not to mislead people - we are not talking about people tampering with things or trying to fix it but goods that are faulty from the manufacturer that may not reveal the fault without inspection which requires some opening up. Opening something up is not the same as tampering/fixing.

It does also depend on the manufacturer's interpretation of what is acceptable. With Dell business computers, they actively encourage IT-capable customers to take the devices apart and diagnose faults by swapping parts, etc, so that the correct parts to replace can be identified and sent out.

Regardless, it is reasonable (from the manufacturers point of view) that you will need to remove the body to insert a chip (as per the instruction sheet), so  the warranty remains intact, if all you are doing is removing the body from the chassis, doesn't it?

Quote from: ScottyStitch on May 03, 2016, 11:20:17 AM
Regardless, it is reasonable (from the manufacturers point of view) that you will need to remove the body to insert a chip (as per the instruction sheet), so  the warranty remains intact, if all you are doing is removing the body from the chassis, doesn't it?

If it's in the instructions with the model they cannot complain, and every dappled or Farish with DCC I have seen has these instructions.

There is no limit to how far a manufacturer can waive their rights.

I think this thread is drifting away and may fall off
the edge of the world.....