Had a trip to the Swindon designer outlet today and decided to have a look in the Hornby shop there.

I asked if they had the Brighton Belle set, only to be told Hornby left the N gauge market 2 years ago, and only options for N gauge were Farish or Peco...

Hmmm

Cheers, Timmo

Quote from: pape_timmo on March 01, 2016, 08:36:35 PM
Had a trip to the Swindon designer outlet today and decided to have a look in the Hornby shop there.

I asked if they had the Brighton Belle set, only to be told Hornby left the N gauge market 2 years ago, and only options for N gauge were Farish or Peco...

Hmmm

Cheers, Timmo

Hmm indeed! No Dapol??

I guess there may be some truth behind it as nothing has followed the Belle, but you'd have thought they would have wound up the wishlist on the Hornby website if so??

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8787/?p=5

My thoughts exactly, I knew they still had the wish page up, so wouldn't have thought they'd just pull the plug.

We shall see I guess.

Cheers, Timmo

generally speaking, bloke in the shop (even an outlet shop) is rarely ever in the manufacturing/planning loop at a company's HQ.

Then again, given Hornby's current woes, he could be the new CEO.

Lyddle End was Hornby, when did that cease? The Belle was branded Arnold, maybe the bloke in the shop didn't class Arnold as being Hornby.

I've posted a query on the Hornby N wish list asking for a comment by "somebody in authority"

Quote from: Zwilnik on March 01, 2016, 09:14:59 PM
generally speaking, bloke in the shop (even an outlet shop) is rarely ever in the manufacturing/planning loop at a company's HQ.

Then again, given Hornby's current woes, he could be the new CEO.

That could be 'Check Out Officer'

Wouldn't Check Out Officer be COO 

Quote from: Unclealbo on March 01, 2016, 10:29:56 PM
Wouldn't Check Out Officer be COO 

COO / CEO are similar roles.....

I guess that the dude in the shop just thinks "Hornby" not the other names in the same stable...I may well be wrong though

Hello all,

I think the writing has been on the wall for some time with Hornby/Arnold.

They have discovered what other manufacturers already know:  there is very little depth to the British N Gauge market.  The first release of the Belle sold well at a relatively low price, so they produced another.   It tanked, and is now in bargain bins, as the market has been satisfied.

Manufacturers need to make money.  When sales are plentiful they can spread their costs and profit across a large number of models.  When sales are low, as in British N, they need to recoup on that initial run.  This is a lesson Bachmann have learned, and why their prices have increased significantly.

If Arnold were convinced that they could charge higher (continental-style) prices here they might be tempted back, but a quick read of this forum creates the over-riding impression that customers want low prices, so I suspect they will stay away for the time being.

cheers

Ben A.

I think you are on the money there Ben
It isn't a criticism as such, but there is (and always has been) a "collector mentality" among a lot of British modellers  - "never mind the quality; feel the width" sort of thing.

Some people even ask for less detailed models, presumably so they will be cheaper; and more can then be bought for the same outlay...

I may be wrong, but with what is probably a shrinking pool of buyers, this is not the way to go for future business..... Its higher quality, at higher prices*.

* I have been studying this intensely of late in a totally different market; but strangely they are the same demographic that go back to model trains....

Quote from: JasonBz on March 02, 2016, 12:58:11 AM
I think you are on the money there Ben
It isn't a criticism as such, but there is (and always has been) a "collector mentality" among a lot of British modellers  - "never mind the quality; feel the width" sort of thing.

Some people even ask for less detailed models, presumably so they will be cheaper; and more can then be bought for the same outlay...

I may be wrong, but with what is probably a shrinking pool of buyers, this is not the way to go for future business..... Its higher quality, at higher prices*.

* I have been studying this intensely of late in a totally different market; but strangely they are the same demographic that go back to model trains....

Completely agree; low volume, high quality, high price models do seem to be the only profitable way forward if a company has to recoup it's costs on the first production run. Hornby's woes (or should that be double woes ) would seem to support that as the profit margin they refer in their annual report is minuscule

I don't entirely agree with Ben here.  I would be happy paying a premium price IF I got a premium product.  And I don't mean super detailing because you can't see it in N scale.  I mean that it works correctly and quietly without me having to tweak it with clear instructions as to how I get the body off (a running fit please not an interference fit) to insert the decoder and how the bogies come of so that if eventually I have to tweak the pick ups I can do.
I see the trouble that Revolution are going to to get their products right but I wonder whether the big boys do the same - frankly I doubt it.
Rant over.
Regards

I don't think Ben meant that nobody is willing to pay a premium price for a premium product, just that the majority aren't.  What any one of us might or might not be willing to pay isn't really the point.
I suspect that we, as active members of this forum, are more enthusiastic than most and spend more money and time on the hobby than the average.  I doubt that we are a representative sample of the N gauge market as a whole.  If I've understood what he meant correctly, Ben's point what that for a lot of people, who can't or aren't willing to spend lots on the hobby, price  strongly trumps detail or even quality.
Like you, I don't agree with those priorities but there's not much we can do about it except support the manufacturers who do cater to what we want to see made.

Hi Terry, Rabs

For the price question I was trying to look at it from Arnold's point of view.

They are used to producing models for the German/Swiss/Austrian markets (and some others) where a new loco comes in at around €230-270, or £195-210.

These prices allow for better R&D, stricter quality control processes and higher spec components.

There are plenty of posts here and on RM Web that make it clear price is the main consideration when purchasing a model, and I suspect retailers have told them the same thing.

So, having seen that there is little depth to the market to allow for sales over a longer period, they were faced with a choice:  Produce to their normal European price which they are told will be too high, or produce something of lower quality at an acceptable price.

I think they have decided that they don't want to jeopardise their reputation by producing cheap models, so they have walked away.  Their latest announcements show new models in N and TT aimed at the Eastern European market, so maybe that is where they are looking for new business now.

But imagine if a new entrant came to the market with a really good Class 66, say, but it was £195.  It had a super smooth and powerful chassis with a good quality motor and brass or similar gears, really fine details, NEM couplers and was really well printed.  Would you buy it, or stick with the Farish models at £100?

I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM

I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.


Ben A.

Coming from the game development business, where this is an even bigger problem, I couldn't agree with you more.

I *do* think there's a market for low budget models, but I think that's more towards the train set end of things as something to bring new people into the hobby, not as a source of quality, detailed models for the grown up fans.

There's already a source of 'cheap' models, which is the stuff that's already out there in the form of older, less detailed models and 2nd hand.

Essentially, it's a case of needing to consider whether you want to have a lot of not so great models (go 2nd hand or old stock and/or do a lot of your own detailing work) or spend money on models that have had time and effort put into making them suitable for the modern market and having fewer of them (or spending more money).

[edit]

Or to simplify the argument..

Just because you *want* lots of lovingly detailed, perfectly running, low priced rolling stock. It doesn't mean that's what you're entitled to or going to get.