My Loco's are always new complacent maybe, I do not like sending stuff back when I should, the J39 when bought was put in a drawer and forgot about for 12 months as I was moving my layout upstairs at the time, From now on I am going to buy from a local dealer even if its less at hattons.

I will see if I can get these loco's fixed but in future I am going to be on the ball.

There is nothing wrong with Kato points and track only having main problem with the J39.

Yes I love DMU's they are superb.

Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 07:25:28 PM

Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 07:16:30 PM
I really don't understand why N gaugers accept dodgy locos but wouldn't accept other dodgy products.

It's simple - if I see that it's something I can fix immediately then I would do so - if I send it back I'll risk getting another the same, have the time and hassle of having to go out and post it back (and have to make sure I get that returned from retailer) again and again. This takes time (and money).

It's far easier just to put right in most cases. Life's too short. Given that most of the locos I have are modified, painted or detailed in some way, their warranty is soon void anyway.

I will post generally the problems on forums that are known to be watched by Bachmann, so the feedback is coming across.

Cheers,
Alan

I understand what you're saying Alan - but this is a bit of a vicious circle. Fix it for Farish/Dapol or whoever and they're more than happy cos they know they can rely on customers to sort THEIR problems out.
If I have any problem now, with a loco, I send it back. So far I've always had a decent loco as a return or a warning from the retailer that the one I've sent back is no worse than any others they have. - Cheers to the retailers for being so up front.
I wonder if Farish, Dapol etc. really take any notice of customer problems or forums like this? I fear not - what a shame ehh!
:'(

Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
I understand what you're saying Alan - but this is a bit of a vicious circle. Fix it for Farish/Dapol or whoever and they're more than happy cos they know they can rely on customers to sort THEIR problems out.

I think that's an exaggeration. It's their reputation on the line and they know it, especially in these days of forums and the internet where any problem is invariably posted for all to see. Moreover, some areas are grey - sending back if it derails for example - often this is in reality the customer's problem because THEIR track is substandard! At times expectations are too high also with expectations to go up unrealistic gradients or round very tight curves. Kato track is great example as there ARE known problems that some turnouts simply derail British stock.

Farish have continually pushed standards again and again, and things have vastly improved. Look at what there is, the quality and all the rest as compared 20 years ago.

In terms of sending back, I have pretty exacting standards, and realistically a significant majority of the models I've bought would have been sent back if I wanted perfection that you seek. It's not realistic or worth the hassle for me (I actually want to spend my time running trains, not standing in a post office queue - instead I have the loco I want after a little effort and little time, rather than waiting a good length of time to get one that may have exactly the same issue, or worse. The plus point is also that I learn a little (or a lot) about the mechanics of the loco for future maintenance too.

It's also not to say I haven't sent stuff back if it's terminal though; most problems are minor however. And given their returns stand they clearly get a fair amount back to illustrate inherent problems.

Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
I wonder if Farish, Dapol etc. really take any notice of customer problems or forums like this? I fear not - what a shame ehh!
:'(

They definitely do. They are not big enough companies to ignore any issues. There are good examples of this precident, including the Dapol 9F - improved motor fitted and finer profile wheels after many complaints on RMweb in particular about the first batch, and I'm fairly sure this also pushed Dapol to the super-creep ultimately. Dapol A3 BR liveries revised after errors noted with photos of first production on RMWeb.

Bachmann, definitely monitor this and RMWeb, and Dapol definitely monitor RMWeb (or did until recently). Dapol also take most notice on their Facebook page.

I think at times this whole issue can get exaggerated - there is equally bad (if not worse) stuff going on in other product domains (how about the bad-cap problems with many flat screen TVs and PC monitors - some being fitted with the wrongly rated components e.g. 10V capacitors in a 16V circuit - I've seen this first hand - it's an epidemic!).

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 09:47:39 PM

In terms of sending back, I have pretty exacting standards, and realistically a significant majority of the models I've bought would have been sent back if I wanted perfection that you seek.

Alan - I'm not seeking perfection - just stuff that works properly out of the box.
I wouldn't call broken wires, missing couplings, non working pickups, broken link motion, jammed drive trains, kangaroo operation etc. etc. as seeking perfection.

Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:07:52 PM
Alan - I'm not seeking perfection - just stuff that works properly out of the box.

So, out of interest, what level of imperfection would you deem acceptable and not send something back?

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 07:15:20 PM

Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
Well I use Kato track

There are known problems with Kato track, some particular turnouts (sorry, I don't know which as I use Peco - but has been discussed on here a lot), so it may be the track.

Cheers,
Alan

Kato #4 turnouts do not like old (deep flanged) English built Farish wheels. No problems with anything modern.

Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 10:30:14 PM

Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:07:52 PM
Alan - I'm not seeking perfection - just stuff that works properly out of the box.

So, out of interest, what level of imperfection would you deem acceptable and not send something back?

Cheers,
Alan

Well for instance...
Noisy loco because noise is subjective - what I think is noisy others may think not.
Slight wobble when running - again, subjective.
Sightly misaligned nameplates.
Poor running at very slow speed - bound to be some variability here - what is 'poor running'
As previously indicated I won't accept obvious faults, even if I could fix them.
Don't get me wrong here Alan I'm not trying to exaggerate problems and I know that the level of detail and sophistication of models has improved greatly over the years, but many of the faults I've seen are just not acceptable.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 13, 2015, 10:34:57 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 07:15:20 PM

Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
Well I use Kato track

There are known problems with Kato track, some particular turnouts (sorry, I don't know which as I use Peco - but has been discussed on here a lot), so it may be the track.

Cheers,
Alan

Kato #4 turnouts do not like old (deep flanged) English built Farish wheels. No problems with anything modern.

All my Loco's are modern but I am going to test the J39 on peco points tomorrow night just to check if its a Kato problem with this Loco,  but I think the same will happen on the Peco points.

Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:43:55 PM
Slight wobble when running - again, subjective.
Poor running at very slow speed - bound to be some variability here - what is 'poor running'

You see it is really all subjective - something like that to me (if not obviously fixable) would be a reason for a return.

So your acceptance of wobbly locos (faulty) only acknowledges to the manufacturer that they're ok....where I'd say they definitely aren't! It all becomes very subjective....

Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:43:55 PM
As previously indicated I won't accept obvious faults, even if I could fix them.
Don't get me wrong here Alan I'm not trying to exaggerate problems and I know that the level of detail and sophistication of models has improved greatly over the years, but many of the faults I've seen are just not acceptable.

I understand this viewpoint and I'm not hard against it - especially for folks who don't have the confidence to undertake adjustment. But I'm a modeller through and through, so fixing, and in particular improving models is what it's all about for me (otherwise it's just the same as everyone elses model....  ). All models get stripped down regardless anyway for fine tuning (even if they run fine straight out of the box).

Some that have good reason to be sent back (e.g. those Dapols with fundamental design issues), but I know realistically Dapol aren't going to redesign them, and in the small chance that they do I'd need to wait years. So do I accept an A3 now, knowing I can put the issue right, or not? I choose to accept it and take the pragmatic approach, as it's the only realistic option....

Cheers,
Alan

I thought I'd add my two penneth here.

I kind of agree with both points of view. It reminds me of when PC's were moving from a hobbiest  product to mainstream. We had all been happy to muck about wit DOS and to swap components but the new customer base just wanted to write letters etc. interestingly the manufacturers did improve the performance of hardware and software in that product.

The problem with our hobby is that some like Dr Al are happy to fettle others like me don't yet have the time or expertise to do so and it can be frustrating especially when one Loco copes with your track/point work fine and another doesn't .

As for do you return or not? Well with my recent Dapol Manor DCC fitted. I tried several things to get it working but in the e d sent it back. Trouble is the replacement is exactly the same.
Getting a definite answer to why it won't run with my DCC system seems impossible. So it is in its box waiting for me to upgrade to a NEC system.
At least Dapol were happy to replace the original but I am left with a choice of not having that class of loco or taking a chance that it will work I future.
I think a lack of standardisation in components across the hobby is areal issue.
Not sure how or if hat can be resolved .

Just my thoughts

Cheers

Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM

The problem with our hobby is that some like Dr Al are happy to fettle others like me don't yet have the time or expertise to do so and it can be frustrating especially when one Loco copes with your track/point work fine and another doesn't .

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I don't know, but I suspect that most N gauge modellers are not experts. Although many on this forum know more than most about the foibles of locos and their faults, problems etc.
What about our new N gauge modeller with no previous knowledge. He/she buys their first starter set. Plugs everything in as per the instructions and the train won't run. Check and check again - still no life.
What's this modeller supposed to do? Buy a meter to check the power, join the N gauge forum in the hope of a glimmer of light (how many posts here are about helping to solve faults and problems?)

If the modeller is lucky he/she may have a mate who has a starter set or layout that works then the new modeller can check their mates loco runs on their track to work out if its the loco or power supply that may be the problem.
More likely the modeller is just gonna send the whole lot back for replacement. If the replacement doesn't work then it'll go back for a refund and the modeller is an N gauge modeller no more!!

Same principle applies to an individual loco. If it doesn't work as described in the catalogue after following all the instructions then it goes back.

More subtle things like noisy locos, slight wobbles and small blemishes the new N gauge modeller would probably not notice yet, not until they've built up some experience. Then its their judgement as to whether the 'fault' is bad enough to send it back.

I have 18 locos, mainly Dapol, and so far all are pretty good. They are all incredibly well detailed and run smoothly. Some are noisier than others and some run better slowly than others that share the same chassis type. Based on this and others experiences quality control isn't great. I'm sure dapol and gf could make much more consistent models but they would have to be made in a different way in a different country and therefore probably cost twice as much.
The low paid Chinese assembly workers will have almost no concept of what they are making or why.

Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
The problem with our hobby is that some like Dr Al are happy to fettle

I think you should think of folks who fettle as not a problem, but an asset to the hobby. If everyone just sent stuff back, never took things apart then there'd be a lot more ignorance in the area of mechanisms than there is. I'd say people should be thankful that there are folks willing to have a prod about, because if your loco goes arwy out of warranty you might call on that knowledge in the future!

I really don't think there is one generalisation that really fits here - there's the push by some to send everything back (well, within their own subjective determination, which is different for everyone as has been demonstrated, and could even be seen as hypocritical in some ways.......); and there's some who take a pragmatic approach and do what's the most efficient to get a solution. Neither is that wrong IMHO, and neither should be particularly looked upon with negativity.

In terms of sending back, we all clearly have different thresholds as to what's acceptable, partly because we all have different priorities. Its a broad church.

Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
Getting a definite answer to why it won't run with my DCC system seems impossible. So it is in its box waiting for me to upgrade to a NEC system.

So really, is that the loco's fault or the NEC system - it's not clear cut. Again it becomes very subjective and somewhat grey area when it comes to DCC fits and suchlike. Dapol locos use Gaugemaster DCC chips, so it would be worth checking if there are any known issues with compatability between these brands.

Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
I think a lack of standardisation in components across the hobby is areal issue.

NEM standards are already in place and I don't think it's a "real issue" to most - of course it will become one if you get something that does fall between the gaps  .

Quote from: austinbob on September 14, 2015, 08:37:46 AM
What about our new N gauge modeller with no previous knowledge.

This is a very specific case. Of course if they have no other support then they'd likely take it back or contact their supplier for advice. If they came to a forum like this, I'd encourage them to take a few basic checks and if there was an obvious fault from their symptoms that was easily sorted then I'd tell them how to do so. That way they'd learn something too 

Quote from: austinbob on September 14, 2015, 08:37:46 AM
small blemishes the new N gauge modeller would probably not notice yet, not until they've built up some experience

This somewhat belittles the new entrant that they won't be able to discern such issues - and is rather subjective at any rate. If I'd seen N gauge models with wobbles and blemishes when I started then I'd have stayed OO!

It strikes me that really we apply the same approach, but with simply different thresholds. I'm willing to have a look, sort out known problems, or easy to fix ones, and return if terminal. You are less willing to do this but are happy to accept locos with faults like wobbly running; where I would not (and it'd go back if it couldn't be corrected). Therefore it's just a subjective viewpoint thing rather than a fundamentally different approach.

Cheers,
Alan

A very balanced response from Alan  and there's some overlap on various peoples' views. I just hope manufacturer's do take REAL notice of the various problems (subjective or indisputable faults) that people encounter and take action where required. That's the only way things will continue to improve.
I don't think I can add anything further to this discussion but will look at further posts with interest.

Quote from: austinbob on September 14, 2015, 10:05:43 AM
do take REAL notice

I think they do - I did think of another example of this after posting previously - the original new tool Farish 47s that had their bogies retooled after the first load were seen (and complained about) as having too high a ride height as well as gear guards fouling pointwork and excessive pointwork wheel drop.

All these were addressed on the second batch models and beyond. 

Cheers,
Alan