I've just had notification from ehattons that the latest estimate for release of Class 33 is now April-June 2015

I find it difficult to comprehend the ever increasing delays between announcement of new models and their actual appearance in the shops!

Totally agree..we have had this debate previously and I cannot comprehend how these lead times in development condtantly slip...after all the anticipated dates the manufacturers state to secure your preorder should be maintained or perhaps a discount offered when they eventually appear !

Quote from: sparky on November 26, 2014, 05:27:09 PM
Totally agree..we have had this debate previously and I cannot comprehend how these lead times in development condtantly slip...after all the anticipated dates the manufacturers state to secure your preorder should be maintained or perhaps a discount offered when they eventually appear !

If discounts were offered for every time there was a delay then the manufacturer/retailer could end up paying us for their models!

It would just be nice if they kept their delivery promises. If they can't keep to promised delivery schedules or constantly underestimate how long it will be before release then it would be better if they did not announce a new product until it is being shipped to the retailer.

Quote from: austinbob on November 26, 2014, 05:32:33 PM

Quote from: sparky on November 26, 2014, 05:27:09 PM
Totally agree..we have had this debate previously and I cannot comprehend how these lead times in development condtantly slip...after all the anticipated dates the manufacturers state to secure your preorder should be maintained or perhaps a discount offered when they eventually appear !

If discounts were offered for every time there was a delay then the manufacturer/retailer could end up paying us for their models!

It would just be nice if they kept their delivery promises. If they can't keep to promised delivery schedules or constantly underestimate how long it will be before release then it would be better if they did not announce a new product until it is being shipped to the retailer.

I'd go with that. Whenever production is signed off, then announce it. Not before.

Got the same email as austinbob.

I try and monitor delivery dates against my pre-orders on a fairly regular basis. Currently of 12 items in that category, 7 are 'due' between January and June.

The other 5 have no dates offered either on the online shop(s) or manufacturer's web site.

You can be philosophical and say 'It gives more time to save up.' but I feel it would be better if items aren't coming through during the life of the published catalogue they should flag that up. Advising something along the lines of 'Expected Quarter 3, 201n' but then stick to it. 

Dave G

With an increasing number of retailers only honouring pre order prices for 12 months, at exactly what point do the manufacturers think we need to pre order.
This situation is becoming farcical

Quote from: austinbob on November 26, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
If discounts were offered for every time there was a delay then the manufacturer/retailer could end up paying us for their models!

Quote from: austinbob on November 26, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
It would just be nice if they kept their delivery promises.

It would, but do they really make "promises"?

If you think about it, do washing machine manufacturers promise what washing machines they are going to make a year from now? Does John Lewis tell you what trousers and shirts it'll have in stock a year from now? Model trains are a pretty unusual market where you have these really long periods between an announcement and a delivery.

Think how carefully Apple keep a lid on what's going to be in their product line-up even six months ahead of time!

Quote from: ScottyStitch on November 26, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
I'd go with that. Whenever production is signed off, then announce it. Not before.

For sure that makes a lot of sense. But then imagine the frustration that would be vented on this forum by someone who bought a particular model only to find out that a substantially better version would be going on sale three months from now!

As it is now, we're broadly aware of replacement models 12, 18 or 24 months ahead of delivery, so can decide whether to spend the money on an existing model or wait for its successor.

Cheers, NeMo

It's pointless 'waiting for a successor' as half the time, if you haven't pre ordered it, chances are you'll miss out. Apart from that, I suspect most of us use the announcements to try and bag a bargain price if possible.

Quote from: NeMo on November 26, 2014, 07:26:59 PM

Quote from: austinbob on November 26, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
It would just be nice if they kept their delivery promises.

It would, but do they really make "promises"?

Didn't they once have the tag-line 'Delivering on our Promises'? A tactical shot across the bows of Bachmann/Farish for habitually missing their announced delivery dates.

Quote from: NeMo on November 26, 2014, 07:26:59 PM

Quote from: austinbob on November 26, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
If discounts were offered for every time there was a delay then the manufacturer/retailer could end up paying us for their models!

Quote from: austinbob on November 26, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
It would just be nice if they kept their delivery promises.

It would, but do they really make "promises"?

If you think about it, do washing machine manufacturers promise what washing machines they are going to make a year from now? Does John Lewis tell you what trousers and shirts it'll have in stock a year from now? Model trains are a pretty unusual market where you have these really long periods between an announcement and a delivery.

Think how carefully Apple keep a lid on what's going to be in their product line-up even six months ahead of time!

Quote from: ScottyStitch on November 26, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
I'd go with that. Whenever production is signed off, then announce it. Not before.

For sure that makes a lot of sense. But then imagine the frustration that would be vented on this forum by someone who bought a particular model only to find out that a substantially better version would be going on sale three months from now!

As it is now, we're broadly aware of replacement models 12, 18 or 24 months ahead of delivery, so can decide whether to spend the money on an existing model or wait for its successor.

Cheers, NeMo

I do very much agree with your comments. I think the biggest problem for people though is the failure for retailers to honour the pre-order price. I notice that most just show price TBC on pre-orders nowadays!

Personally I am glad to have waited for a Farish 25/1, rather than bought one of the awful by comparison 25/3's. It is very useful to know what models are in the pipeline, though understand the frustration when they can take years to appear. Maybe in part its because we are awaiting a better quality product than we have been used to in the past, plus I suppose its a matter of reducing cost for the manufacturers. I would not want to go back to the RTR models of the 1990s...

Cheers
Paul

Quote from: ScottyStitch on November 26, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
I'd go with that. Whenever production is signed off, then announce it. Not before.

The trouble with that is that it increases the risk of duplicate products. This is exactly what has happened in 00 with 2 manufacturers going head-to-head over Kings and 71s and 3 battling it out over the Adams Radial. 

Announcing something at the start of a project stakes a claim to it. Of course other manufacturers are free to ignore that if they feel they can do theirs better/sooner/cheaper but at least it prevents nasty suprises all round. Many new models make little profit on their first runs as they need to pay off the tooling costs. Only once this has been covered does a model become profitable. If you split the market for a prototype, there is a risk of 2 manufacturers having unprofitable models which reduces their capital for future R&D. It also means that we modellers get access to 1 new prototype instead of 2.

Look at the B1 where Dapol and Farish went head-to-head. Farish came out ahead which resulted in Dapol having to dump their stock cheaply to shift it. If they had known in advance, I suspect they would have released something else instead.

Quote from: Karhedron on November 27, 2014, 01:40:28 PM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on November 26, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
I'd go with that. Whenever production is signed off, then announce it. Not before.

The trouble with that is that it increases the risk of duplicate products. This is exactly what has happened in 00 with 2 manufacturers going head-to-head over Kings and 71s and 3 battling it out over the Adams Radial. 

Announcing something at the start of a project stakes a claim to it. Of course other manufacturers are free to ignore that if they feel they can do theirs better/sooner/cheaper but at least it prevents nasty suprises all round. Many new models make little profit on their first runs as they need to pay off the tooling costs. Only once this has been covered does a model become profitable. If you split the market for a prototype, there is a risk of 2 manufacturers having unprofitable models which reduces their capital for future R&D. It also means that we modellers get access to 1 new prototype instead of 2.

Look at the B1 where Dapol and Farish went head-to-head. Farish came out ahead which resulted in Dapol having to dump their stock cheaply to shift it. If they had known in advance, I suspect they would have released something else instead.

Excellent points, well made.

Ok, how about this. At the start of development the announce it's in the planning stage. No dates. Just that the process has begun. But still, only announce pre orders when the drawings and tools are signed off?

Quote from: ScottyStitch on November 27, 2014, 01:55:03 PM
Ok, how about this. At the start of development the announce it's in the planning stage. No dates. Just that the process has begun. But still, only announce pre orders when the drawings and tools are signed off?

I agree, announcing dates and then failing to meet them is pretty annoying, perhaps moreso than simply listing what stage of development a model is at. Farish is probably better in this regard as they simply list models as being in the drawing stage, tooling, EPs etc.

Mind you, they have had the Castle in the drawing room for the last 18 months without apparently doing any work on it whatsoever. 

And then you have Dapol's Pendolino.....announced then abandoned?

Did anyone notice the "2d" in the Dapol model number?