Hi all,
Just thought I'd share this with you. A week or so ago my Graham Farish class 47 'Hadrian' loco failed, it ran a circuit of the track then suddenly slowed down & stopped, the lights still worked but it wouldn't run. So I stripped it down, tested the motor & it would barely turn, luckily I had a spare secondhand motor, put that in & the 47 is back up & running...

Out of curiosity i had a go stripping down the faulty motor, managed to remove the flywheels with a puller, then opened up the casing & lots of bits of solder fell out. I found that a disc/ring had become detatched from the armature which has obviously caused the failure. Also noticed the commutator has quite a bit of wear, the brushes didn't seem all that worn, this is from a loco that I bought 3-4 years ago & has done about 20-30 hours running max on a 4x2 layout...





All a bit worrying really, I'm wondering if this is going to become a common problem as locos start racking up the hours or whether its just a one off....

cheers, Stu.

Hi Stu,

Out of interest can you measure pad to pad on the ring thats detached on the Ohms range please? If Iv got this right its a suppresser and the motor will run fine without it but lord knows why the comm is that worn.

The solder splats are from the joints holding the ring to the armature melting due to heating - possibly from clogged comm segments or maybe a faulty suppresser ring.

Might be worth measuring pad to pad on the commutator to see if the windings have survived.

Regards
Russ

I have remotored a few (Poole) Farish locos in the past with small Japanese (usually Hanazono) 5-pole motors which wasn't too difficult and should be easier with the Chinese built locos where the motor isn't built into the chassis. That commutator wear is shocking - looks like either very hard brushes, or brush springs far too strong. Wonder how long the coreless can motors in latest Farish steam locos will last?

When I queried motor lifetime with my Dapol Panniers I was told by Dapol that the sealed motor can be easily replaced when the wear about, if I remember correctly they expect a lifetime of about 100 hours per motor which doesn't seem a lot to me.   

Quote from: Caz on November 08, 2014, 10:18:47 AM
if I remember correctly they expect a lifetime of about 100 hours per motor which doesn't seem a lot to me.   

Me too!   That's outrageous !! 

Quote from: PostModN66 on November 08, 2014, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: Caz on November 08, 2014, 10:18:47 AM
if I remember correctly they expect a lifetime of about 100 hours per motor which doesn't seem a lot to me.   

Me too!   That's outrageous !! 

Especially as they have to be run in for 10 hours or so
OK,OK, I've been told a million times not to exaggerate

Touch wood all my locos are running fine....I know nothing about these motors but  I guess there is a cost v longetivity trade off as with everything we buy...how much we are prepared to pay for a loco ultimately will dictate the quality of all the parts..as an example if grafar could engineer out split gears I would happily pay a bit more

Quote from: RussellH on November 07, 2014, 09:53:29 PM
Hi Stu,

Out of interest can you measure pad to pad on the ring thats detached on the Ohms range please? If Iv got this right its a suppresser and the motor will run fine without it but lord knows why the comm is that worn.

The solder splats are from the joints holding the ring to the armature melting due to heating - possibly from clogged comm segments or maybe a faulty suppresser ring.

Might be worth measuring pad to pad on the commutator to see if the windings have survived.

Regards
Russ

Hi,
I put a meter across the pads as you asked but it wouldn't give a reading  . I could see a couple of the winding wires have broken as well, probably as a result of bits of solder flying around & the ring detatching itself, its far to small a motor to even attempt to try & re-solder it so I've binned it. Looks as if the only answer with these locos is to replace the motor once they've failed.

cheers, Stu

Hi Stu ... great topic you've raised, sorry to hear of the circumstances though.

Quote from: belstone on November 08, 2014, 09:28:38 AM
I have remotored a few (Poole) Farish locos in the past with small Japanese (usually Hanazono) 5-pole motors which wasn't too difficult and should be easier with the Chinese built locos where the motor isn't built into the chassis. That commutator wear is shocking - looks like either very hard brushes, or brush springs far too strong. Wonder how long the coreless can motors in latest Farish steam locos will last?

Belstone - not wishing to hijack this thread but could you either post details about your re-motoring of Poole Farish with Hanazono motors here, or PM me. I'm very interested to learn more and posed this question a few months back.

Dan

Quote from: Caz on November 08, 2014, 10:18:47 AM
When I queried motor lifetime with my Dapol Panniers I was told by Dapol that the sealed motor can be easily replaced when the wear about, if I remember correctly they expect a lifetime of about 100 hours per motor which doesn't seem a lot to me.   

That's funny Caz, really funny  "Easily replaced". That's fine, so long as the motors are still manufactured. Let's see if we can get replacements down the line.

Poole Farish motors are easy to replace too, but for how long they'll be available, I'm not sure (they aren't used in the current Bachman products and so it's surely only a matter of time before Bachmann stop supplying them). Fortunately though, the Poole motors are built like a tank and if well maintained, shouldn't burn out or fall to pieces (just my opinion).

As for the 100hrs, I believe Bachmann Farish are the same. Sounds great value for money doesn't it?

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on November 08, 2014, 04:03:54 PM

Belstone - not wishing to hijack this thread but could you either post details about your re-motoring of Poole Farish with Hanazono motors here, or PM me. I'm very interested to learn more and posed this question a few months back.

Dan

A new thread would be great and would save hijacking this one. 

Quote from: mk1gtstu on November 07, 2014, 08:07:22 PM

I agree. What's strange is that the brushes still have plenty of meat on them - if you've done 30 hours then the brush wear looks relatively small, but the commutator wear looks excessive - the deep groove in it just shouldn't happen in that period of running. It's almost like the brushes are harder than the commutator.

If so the first failure point of these motors will be the commutator rather than the brushes. There isn't so much you could do in either case, unless spare components are made available (not likely) - it's a replacement motor. However, most of these are the same dimensions as the Mashima 1015, so this could be substituted (it's a better motor anyway, as it's 5 pole; but has the disadvantage of having larger diameter shafts meaning flywheels need their central hole opened out).

The ring that became detached seems to serve no great purpose - I've seen this on several locos, it's common on early Union Mills steam locos which use a very similar type of motor. The rings do cause all sorts of damage if they become detached, but this usually only happens if the motor gets very hot, enough that the solder softens as others have said. I think ultrasonic cleaning may be an option to clean can motors and their commutators without having to disassemble them, but have yet to try this.

I would contact Bachmann and make them aware of your findings, and see what they say - 30 hours really isn't enough IMHO (that's £2 an hour if the loco cost you £60......).

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Caz on November 08, 2014, 04:19:34 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on November 08, 2014, 04:03:54 PM

Belstone - not wishing to hijack this thread but could you either post details about your re-motoring of Poole Farish with Hanazono motors here, or PM me. I'm very interested to learn more and posed this question a few months back.

Dan

A new thread would be great and would save hijacking this one.

It's ok Caz - found Belstone's blog 

Quote from: DesertHound on November 08, 2014, 06:21:30 PM
It's ok Caz - found Belstone's blog 

A link would save others looking.