I have been avoiding adding anything to this until now...

When I go on a trip, I buy "new" locomotives. I don't care if they are F or D. I'm just impressed with the improved quality over the stuff I began N gauge with.

I'm stock piling 'em to run into Beal! 



George

I agree with Dr Al about track work, I've seen some pretty dodgy track work, it really does pay dividends to take time and care with track laying. The days of bunging set track together on the carpet are over, I'm not suggesting that is the norm now but some people do seem have a bit of a train set mentality.

I've also seen some badly treated models and I'm sure some of these are returned to retailers and manufacturers as faulty when in fact they have been mishandled.

My latest purchase is a Farish Standard Class 5 and I think it is superb.

Quote from: DCCDave on October 15, 2014, 10:26:47 AM
I think you're right Al, and I suspect that a large slice of the additional cost of 'German' locomotives goes towards the cost of QC, it seems to me that the checking rate must be higher for these models to have a lower 'dodgy' on arrival ratio. Be interesting to see some figures to compare (yeah OK I'll dream on)

Cheers
Dave

They mostly spend it on building it right in the first place - that's actually a lot cheaper than QA. However they can design to a higher price point, and have a larger market. Many of the models for all their solidity are also IMHO cruder around areas that need to be mechanically strong than some of the UK models.

At the end of the day it mostly comes down to price. You can design cleverly to get the best for the price, but if the price is low the goods can only reach a certain standard, or you have to limit it to specific easy to produce items. Brass gears and solid metal chassis blocks cost real money and there isn't a magic way to make them cheap.

You can today buy a UK outline diesel loco that'll run for ten plus years with nothing more than a spot of oil, will run on crap track and will pick up power where other locos stutter. It's just they cost £500.

I think the standards of locos (and I'm sure steamers within that category) have improved a great deal, but it's possibly the issues of quality control that are the problem. I'm not an owner of much Chinese stock, so I cannot really have a definitive opinion on their overall quality.

That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up. If your brand new car stopped running as soon as you drove it home from the showroom, you wouldn't pop your overalls on and proceed to get your hands dirty, no, you'd call the dealer. So why why why do we put up with it with model railways?

I think Fleischmann still manufacture in Germany. It's one of the core values of German culture and engineering that when they do something, they want to do it well, they want to do it thoroughly. Therefore they keep manufacturing processes in-house, since they know they can then control it and keep on top of any problems.

Also, I wouldn't consider Graham Farish a British company. Isn't it owned by an overseas company? British outline yes, British owned I believe not. Therefore, I don't blame them for shipping everything overseas and closing down the factory - bit like what Kraft did with Cadbury's I think.

Me ... I'll stick to good old Poole "British" N.

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up.

I think many of us are guilty of doing that and therefore manufacturers don't get so many returns.

Swings and roundabout situation - and I don't necessarily condone my route to getting things fixed as the best, but for me it's far more efficient to just fix the simple problems that take minutes; than pack it all up, drive to a post office, send it back, wait for a replacement and potentially find that's the same. I guess because I'm a modeller first and collector second, I'm happy to change things, and that includes mechanical mods or fixes. If I was a pure collector I think I'd return more (or never run it to find it had issues!).

Serious problems do result in my returning them - e.g. 5MT with duff quartering and mis-moulded wheel insulators that wobbled it in a completely un-fixable manner, or Dapol HST with slow running, over-current, overheating motor.

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
Also, I wouldn't consider Graham Farish a British company. Isn't it owned by an overseas company? British outline yes, British owned I believe not.

Entirely true - they are owned now by Bachmann (a US company), so really have no links at all to Britain other than their history. Bachmann in turn were bought by Kader (of Hong Kong) in the late 1980s.

I think this ultimately has been a good thing. The Poole range was starting to get very long in the tooth and one wonders if they really would have had the money to invest on wholesale updating of it - they'd have been forced to sooner or later as tooling became expired and as DCC ready models became more and more desirable, and competitors entered the fray. Indeed I recall reading in 2003 or thereabouts that when Bachmann picked up Poole's first designs of the V2 they thought they were diabolical and scrapped them, completely replacing it. I believe they completely redesigned the class 60 too, and this core design concept has essentially formed the backbone of all the new tool diesels. Having said all that, the only failures of Poole stock I bought brand new back in the day (now a very long time ago!) was split gears.

But, I doubt that the N gauge market would be as bouyant now if things had trundled on as they were - over the time I've modelled N (since 1997) the transformation has been total. In 1997 I was really unsure as to choosing N as the models looked dated even at that time...though they were actually mechanically superior to their OO counterparts at that time. Fortunately it proved a wise choice for many reasons beyond this! 

With DJM coming, I think we may again have a UK owned manufacturer. Albeit the product will be made outwith the UK.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
I think the standards of locos (and I'm sure steamers within that category) have improved a great deal, but it's possibly the issues of quality control that are the problem. I'm not an owner of much Chinese stock, so I cannot really have a definitive opinion on their overall quality.

That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up. If your brand new car stopped running as soon as you drove it home from the showroom, you wouldn't pop your overalls on and proceed to get your hands dirty, no, you'd call the dealer. So why why why do we put up with it with model railways?

I think Fleischmann still manufacture in Germany. It's one of the core values of German culture and engineering that when they do something, they want to do it well, they want to do it thoroughly. Therefore they keep manufacturing processes in-house, since they know they can then control it and keep on top of any problems.

The point is that those compnies who do still manufacture in Germany also charge for it.

Sure you can have better QC, but given that you want no issues on a £100 loco then would you pay for it? Say £150 per loco?

Generally the quality and sophistication of Chinese built stock is light years ahead of Poole-built stock. Sure there are some build/QC problems, but no more do we have generic chassis (eg 37 and 47 sharing the same chassis) etc.

Bachmann Europe (who do research, sales & marketing) is still partly owned by Graham Hubbard IIRC, though obviously the production is done by Kader (who own the majority shares in Bachmann).

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: red_death on October 15, 2014, 03:17:48 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
I think the standards of locos (and I'm sure steamers within that category) have improved a great deal, but it's possibly the issues of quality control that are the problem. I'm not an owner of much Chinese stock, so I cannot really have a definitive opinion on their overall quality.

That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up. If your brand new car stopped running as soon as you drove it home from the showroom, you wouldn't pop your overalls on and proceed to get your hands dirty, no, you'd call the dealer. So why why why do we put up with it with model railways?

I think Fleischmann still manufacture in Germany. It's one of the core values of German culture and engineering that when they do something, they want to do it well, they want to do it thoroughly. Therefore they keep manufacturing processes in-house, since they know they can then control it and keep on top of any problems.

The point is that those compnies who do still manufacture in Germany also charge for it.

Sure you can have better QC, but given that you want no issues on a £100 loco then would you pay for it? Say £150 per loco?

Generally the quality and sophistication of Chinese built stock is light years ahead of Poole-built stock. Sure there are some build/QC problems, but no more do we have generic chassis (eg 37 and 47 sharing the same chassis) etc.

Bachmann Europe (who do research, sales & marketing) is still partly owned by Graham Hubbard IIRC, though obviously the production is done by Kader (who own the majority shares in Bachmann).

Cheers, Mike

I'd generally agree with all of that red_death. Question is (and forgive me if I'm going off on a tangent and we can come back onto topic if people think this is going too far off - which I guess it is) it's chicken and egg. Or should I say race to the bottom.

The German products are more expensive, but the population still have the jobs to afford those products. We seem to live in fairyland in thinking "let's ship everything off to China" and sell it back to ourselves. Who are we kidding? Problem is, who's going to be able to afford these things in the future?

The guy who used to work for Graham Farish in Poole can no longer afford a Cadbury's chocolate bar because he's out of a job. The guy who used to work for Cadbury's can no longer collect Graham Farish trains because he's also out of a job. But it's all ok, because the products have become a lot cheaper to produce, so the new owners of these companies are happy. Oh, but wait, there's less people with long term job security who are able to afford these things.

Sorry, I know that's really and it's not aimed at your post. Getting back on to thread, I'd agree that the newer models are of a superior quality and possibly (or should that be probably) Graham Farish would not have been able to continue alone. So, we could say that my argument above is rather abstract / academic. I guess it's just I find it sad that we hardly make anything anymore  :'(

Quote from: red_death on October 15, 2014, 03:17:48 PM
The point is that those compnies who do still manufacture in Germany also charge for it.

Sure you can have better QC, but given that you want no issues on a £100 loco then would you pay for it? Say £150 per loco?

It's the key point - interestingly, looking at the Fleischmann homepage a most simple 0-6-0 diesel shunter is £111, ranging up to a large 2-10-0 tender loco which is an eye watering £220.

The simple question then is: would the British market hack that? Frankly, it seems unlikely - especially given we are all so used to paying what we do for models.

By comparison, a Farish 08 shunter is around £60, and a big 2-10-0 steam loco, say a 9F, is around £100. Looking at it that way, we get a big amount for our money....even if there are more cases of dud models as a result.

Neither situation is exactly perfect, butI think we could do a lot worse in terms of both quality and price.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM
I think we've never had it so good. The models we get now are light years ahead of anything we've had in the past, and certainly at least the match of continental models and I'd contend in a lot of cases better - coreless motors, ultra fine profile wheels, a wealth of separate detail parts and all at a price much less an equivalent sized continental prototype, which often doesn't have these features.

Faults are so often quality control - e.g. poorly centred moulding for axle insulators (= wobbly Fairburns), pickups not bent to correct angle to ensure good wheel contact (Black 5s etc). Both Dapol and Farish have reached a stage of mature designs that use common motors and other components and this is definitely seen in the running.

Dare I say (given I've repaired quite a few in this category) that some complaints too are unwarranted as the locos have been mishandled (be gentle with them folks, take care of them!!!!!!!!) or are running on poor quality trackwork. Some track joins I've seen would make Jonathan Edwards baulk, yet we expect our poor black 5 to deal with them effortlessly  ? It pays huge dividends to go over all turnouts with a fine toothcomb and check for bumps, kinks and conductivity before installing, and planning expansion gaps carefully so that they are staggered and small.

There will always be problems. There will always be failures. There will be some that are just a poor design. It's always a pain if you get a dud, but there are plenty of good ones out there. This is just the nature of things, but I think we're at a time where what is available and it's quality has never been so good  .

Cheers,
Alan

I agree with all that you've said there  I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

Fleischmann is now days but a brand of ModelEisenbahm Gmbh but is German. Märklin last time I checked were still owned by British vulture-capitalists.

Märklin have certainly produced items in China as well as Germany, and the Chinese built models are also of excellent standard. It's what you pay for it not just where it's made.

Even the stuff made in Germany has seen big process changes because the old ways of producing things didn't make sense wherever you were located.

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM

I agree with all that you've said there  I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

I agree the range of locos available and the level of detail is improving all the time. However if you buy a loco, however detailed and good looking it is, it cannot be described as 'superb' if it doesn't work properly. That is true whatever the sales price is!

I don't understand why some people are so forgiving about locos they buy, at whatever price, which don't work as they are intended.

If you bought anything else, like an inexpensive car or kettle or top of the range television or radio or any consumer goods you care to think of, at any indicated sales price, then you would expect them to just work wouldn't you? You'd be pretty miffed if they didn't work.

If Loco manufacturers cannot make locos that work for the price they are selling them at then I, for one, would rather pay a bit more to get a model that works out of the box.

I think a big problem at the moment is that there is not enough competition in N gauge loco manufacture for the current manufacturers to worry too much about shipping rubbish. There's nowhere else for us poor customers to go.

Sorry for the rant but a large part of my past career has been in Quality Management and the concept that it is ok for Manufacturers to ship rubbish at any price is totally taboo.

Bob Austin

Quote from: austinbob on October 15, 2014, 06:00:34 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM

I agree with all that you've said there  I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

I agree the range of locos available and the level of detail is improving all the time. However if you buy a loco, however detailed and good looking it is, it cannot be described as 'superb' if it doesn't work properly. That is true whatever the sales price is!

I don't understand why some people are so forgiving about locos they buy, at whatever price, which don't work as they are intended.

If you bought anything else, like an inexpensive car or kettle or top of the range television or radio or any consumer goods you care to think of, at any indicated sales price, then you would expect them to just work wouldn't you? You'd be pretty miffed if they didn't work.

If Loco manufacturers cannot make locos that work for the price they are selling them at then I, for one, would rather pay a bit more to get a model that works out of the box.

I think a big problem at the moment is that there is not enough competition in N gauge loco manufacture for the current manufacturers to worry too much about shipping rubbish. There's nowhere else for us poor customers to go.

Sorry for the rant but a large part of my past career has been in Quality Management and the concept that it is ok for Manufacturers to ship rubbish at any price is totally taboo.

Bob Austin

Bob

Not a rant in the slightest. Just look at some of my posts if you want to see what's bordering on a rant   

I think you've hit the nail on the head with regards to accepting sub-standard items / making excuses for poor quality. We just wouldn't stand for it with other products. I think competition surely is the reason.

That said, and to be balanced, as I said before, the range and detail has increased tremendously, and most probably the running qualities.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: austinbob on October 15, 2014, 06:00:34 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM

I agree with all that you've said there  I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

I agree the range of locos available and the level of detail is improving all the time. However if you buy a loco, however detailed and good looking it is, it cannot be described as 'superb' if it doesn't work properly. That is true whatever the sales price is!

I don't understand why some people are so forgiving about locos they buy, at whatever price, which don't work as they are intended.

If you bought anything else, like an inexpensive car or kettle or top of the range television or radio or any consumer goods you care to think of, at any indicated sales price, then you would expect them to just work wouldn't you? You'd be pretty miffed if they didn't work.

If Loco manufacturers cannot make locos that work for the price they are selling them at then I, for one, would rather pay a bit more to get a model that works out of the box.

I think a big problem at the moment is that there is not enough competition in N gauge loco manufacture for the current manufacturers to worry too much about shipping rubbish. There's nowhere else for us poor customers to go.

Sorry for the rant but a large part of my past career has been in Quality Management and the concept that it is ok for Manufacturers to ship rubbish at any price is totally taboo.

Bob Austin

Maybe I've been lucky but I've only ever had 2 or 3 bad locos (both Farish & Dapol) which I've sent back to where I bought them for replacement, & thats out of a total of around 50 locos which I now have in my collection, both Dapol & new Farish. The way I see it, if its faulty then send it back for replacement or a refund. Poole Farish locos wern't without their problems in their time either I found with split gears & noisy, poor running.

cheers, Stu.

I was guilty of using the word 'superb' to describe a loco     My latest loco in my opinion is superb but loco buying still a bit of a lottery due to almost non existent QC. The manufacturers use us as quality controllers.

My other recent purchases have been two Tornados, one perfect from the start, one a wobbler because of glue on the tender wheels (easily removed once I spotted it) and a 4MT that needed hours of running in.

As others have said good design and quality control cost money.

Stu

I'm honestly torn between the two sides of the argument. On the one hand I feel the points I've posted above are valid, yet on the other, I see your point about Poole Farish not being without its faults and you having 3/50 faulty locos (still a lot mind) and so I think I'm going to sit on the fence from now on, with an acceptance that there are valid arguments on both sides 

Still would like to see the stuff made in the UK though ... but hey ho, hum hum ...