Quote from: 1018509 on January 31, 2014, 09:35:36 PM
This is fascinating stuff. If the rolling stock was to be used again didn't the brake coach have to be removed and turned as I thought that in those days the last carriage was always at the back and the guard's part of said carriage at the end

If we're talking about the Southern then fixed coach sets could often mean a brake at both ends, so definitely no turning around needed.

Hi

Typically passenger rakes were made up with a brake coach at each end, so whichever way it was going there was always a brake coach at the rear of the train.

Sometimes a brake would not be at the very end - especially if there were slip coaches to be dropped off along the way.

Neil

Quote from: class37025 on December 30, 2013, 07:20:41 PM
I seem to remember a post on here where someone had semi recessed the magnets in the baseboard, then thinned the sleepers over it so there was, once ballasted, a continuous row of sleepers, but the magnet was just below the surface and so more effective.

I've recessed mine into the foam underlay rather than the baseboard:  http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=3660.msg100430#msg100430, near the bottom.

They need cardboard shims to bring them right up below the sleepers, and I think I'll have to ballast around rather than over the top, but they are working through the plastic.

Quote from: 1018509 on January 31, 2014, 09:35:36 PM
This is fascinating stuff. If the rolling stock was to be used again didn't the brake coach have to be removed and turned as I thought that in those days the last carriage was always at the back and the guard's part of said carriage at the end

Let's replace "last" with "brake" shall we; a lot less amusing but what I meant. 

In the days when the last coaching had to be a brake (subject to certain exceptions that aren't relevant here) the rakes of coaching stock would have been formed with a brake coach at each end.  This ceased to be the rule in about 1970 since when trains have only needed one brake coach. 

Quote from: edwin_m on February 01, 2014, 09:56:58 PM
In the days when the last coaching had to be a brake (subject to certain exceptions that aren't relevant here) the rakes of coaching stock would have been formed with a brake coach at each end.  This ceased to be the rule in about 1970 since when trains have only needed one brake coach.

if you look at the photographic evidence I think that the last vehicle HAD to be a brake coach only really up to the time that fully automatic brake was universal- sometime around 1890 give or take a few years.  Certainly the little album included in the latest Railway Magazine has nine passenger trains in which the last vehicle can be clearly identified, and three of these are NOT brake coaches, and not all branch trains.

I'm also old enough to remember the Tees-Tyne Pullman as a 100% Pullman train before they put maroon full brakes on the ends, and seeing the Northbound train hammer round the back of Darlington station with two Met-Camm pullmans at the back- behind the traditional brake car- this wasn't the "correct" formation but it ran like that for over a week.   Similarly if travelling South out of Darlington we used to try to get in the last coach of the train (better to get a pic of the loco coming round the curves into York) and about 1 in 3 or 4 journeys we would be behind the brake coach.

Similarly the East Coast line had a number of trains that split en-route, sometimes twice, but I don't see photos of four or more brakes in the train.

I suspect "normally ran with brakes at each end" is more accurate than "had to have", at least outside those areas where fixed rakes were the rule.

All the very best
Les

All locomotive hauled passenger trains had a brake van at the rear until the late 1960's or early 1970's. This was to provide some protection to the passegner accommodation in the event of a rear end collision.

There were exceptions such as branch trains or long commutor trains stopping at short platforms where the rear guards compartment had to be on the platform. These had to be approved by the Department of Transport.

The regulations were changed sometime after the great cull of 1962 when the older weaker coaches were withdrawn and all underframes were of the 200 Ton type.

Dodger

 
What a wealth of absolutely fascinating information - thanks guys and gals!

You wouldn't get a tenth of this from Google or Wikipedia...!

Chris

Quote from: dodger on February 05, 2014, 08:09:59 AM
All locomotive hauled passenger trains had a brake van at the rear until the late 1960's or early 1970's. This was to provide some protection to the passegner accommodation in the event of a rear end collision.

The current rules also provide that you need a suitably strong vehicle at each end of older coaches. This is one reason you'll see end vehicles on heritage trains using Mark 1 stock. They effectively act as barriers to protect the Mark 1 coaches and their contents.

While the Mark 1 coaches were much better than most of the older stock they replaced it was found that in high speed accidents the separate body/chassis meant they were vulnerable to some types of catastrophic failure.

Modern stock is a lot stronger and the construction means they don't have a separate underframe.

Alan

monocoque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque), same as *most* modern cars rather than a separate chassis and body

Quote from: Les1952 on February 04, 2014, 07:57:38 PM

Quote from: edwin_m on February 01, 2014, 09:56:58 PM
In the days when the last coaching had to be a brake (subject to certain exceptions that aren't relevant here) the rakes of coaching stock would have been formed with a brake coach at each end.  This ceased to be the rule in about 1970 since when trains have only needed one brake coach.

if you look at the photographic evidence I think that the last vehicle HAD to be a brake coach only really up to the time that fully automatic brake was universal- sometime around 1890 give or take a few years.  Certainly the little album included in the latest Railway Magazine has nine passenger trains in which the last vehicle can be clearly identified, and three of these are NOT brake coaches, and not all branch trains.

I'm also old enough to remember the Tees-Tyne Pullman as a 100% Pullman train before they put maroon full brakes on the ends, and seeing the Northbound train hammer round the back of Darlington station with two Met-Camm pullmans at the back- behind the traditional brake car- this wasn't the "correct" formation but it ran like that for over a week.   Similarly if travelling South out of Darlington we used to try to get in the last coach of the train (better to get a pic of the loco coming round the curves into York) and about 1 in 3 or 4 journeys we would be behind the brake coach.

Similarly the East Coast line had a number of trains that split en-route, sometimes twice, but I don't see photos of four or more brakes in the train.

I suspect "normally ran with brakes at each end" is more accurate than "had to have", at least outside those areas where fixed rakes were the rule.

All the very best
Les

This thread has drifted off terminus station engine release a bit! But as we are on the subject here is my tuppence.

I think once the continuous brake became universal most companies introduced a rule regarding a limit on the maximum number of axles behind the rearmost hand-brake fitted vehicle, (ie brake van in a passenger coach or freight stock brake van. I think this was 8 or 10 axles.

This allowed Parcels stock and the like to be attached to formations en-route without re-mashalling or complicated and time consuming. Stock could be added to the front without restriction. I believe some Fish trains on the LNER had an exemption from this rule to expedite working the traffic, presumably the exception to prove the rule!

There is a difference between axles behind and passenger axles behind.

Mind you its well established that the shunting rules about the differences were ignored a safe distance from HQ. A passenger train with a van behind the guards van was for example supposed not to have the passengers on board while the entire train was reversed into a siding and the van uncoupled (or added)

Needless to say every record shows it didn't happen that way

Alan