i must admit i think the 350's are fine, don't forget they run on 3rd rail aswell . and yes a pendo is missing but not really a problem as you can on the norton bridge line find only 350's and 221's . so for n gauge wcml you have 350's , 86's ,90's and the 221's so they is stuff to run with them . i would if i had a fixed layout , have OHL .

Quote from: Ben A on January 26, 2014, 03:36:47 PM
But I to make financial sense it would probably be truncated - maybe a compromise with two driving cars and two intermediate cars - a bit like the original Hornby HST set.  Then I can imagine the chorus of complaints|

I suspect you are right - but no complaints would come from from me - a big cheezy grin like this 

Cheers Jon 

Are we not in danger here of generalising?  To say "Electrics" is like say "Diesels" or "Steam".  There is an endless choice of Class 66's (well there would be if everything in the various catalogues were available), and a lot of Diesel types being developed...

So I don't suppose that Farish/Dapol et al are focused on a particular genre but more on what they think they can sell.  What is the criteria that the model manufacturers use to decide on what they will produce? 

Ultimately it must be down to sales - do we know how they make a decision on what they can sell?  If we did, we might stand more of a chance of asking for something they will make.

I guess that most Electric Traction units are limited in the Area of operation and thus would not necessarily sell well...Personally I model current day Southeastern.  So a Desiro, although a good model, is no use to me and I wont buy one.  I do however recognise that for those that model their area of operation they would but they would not buy a 465 Networker...

What we really need is the TOC standardise on one class...

Quote from: Greybeema on January 26, 2014, 04:24:37 PM
What we really need is the TOC standardise on one class...

4VEP, anyone?

Seriously, it was the one class which you could see in Bournemouth and Ramsgate, and all points in between.

Quote from: talisman56 on January 26, 2014, 04:27:14 PM
4VEP, anyone?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Quote from: talisman56 on January 26, 2014, 04:27:14 PM
4VEP, anyone?

Yes please! These ran a few yards from my bedroom window growing up, and were always very obliging when it came to flattening pennies on the White Hart Lane level crossing!

Oddly enough though, I noticed I took very few photos of them. Funny how at the time one never bothers to record what seems so commonplace. Will people twenty or thirty years from now be reminiscing about London Midland 350s?

Cheers, NeMo

Ah, yes, the Pendolino would be nice in RTR, but again, it is misreading the N gauge market I think to assume it would work 'as a train set'. The toy or trainset market exists in OO, but does it in N?

Given the Farish boxes come with the labelling 'adult collectors item, not suitable for children under the age of 14', the few train sets they do sell are certainly to adults re-entering the market.

I think most children would rather have a Hornby set than a Farish one as the train (and the all important box) is bigger . Equally, I think most parents would be happier giving an OO set as they are less fragile or likely to get accidentally trodden on.

If we want an RTR Pendolino, there's got to be about 3,000 people who want to fork out £250 for a full set...and that's 3000 adults. Given Farish or Dapol's zero penetration into the toy market (ever seen n gauge in toys r us?) gives another indication of how lucky we are to have what we have given we don't have this massive complimentary market to subsidise our high-end modelling interests.

We are living in a golden age for model railways, but shouldn't forget we are all focused on a minor scale.

That all said, if anyone fancies setting up a crowd sourced funding arrangement to get 3,000 orders for a Pendolino agreed and then place a commission with Farish or Dapol, I'm sure they'd happily take our money and provide the models...

David

Quote from: Bmthtrains on January 26, 2014, 05:10:48 PM
That all said, if anyone fancies setting up a crowd sourced funding arrangement to get 3,000 orders for a Pendolino agreed and then place a commission with Farish or Dapol, I'm sure they'd happily take our money and provide the models...

I'll take two. 2998 to go! 

Cheers  Jon 

Quote from: Bmthtrains on January 26, 2014, 05:10:48 PM


That all said, if anyone fancies setting up a crowd sourced funding arrangement to get 3,000 orders for a Pendolino agreed and then place a commission with Farish or Dapol, I'm sure they'd happily take our money and provide the models...

David

Therein lies the rub... There's 3163 of us on the forum (just looked at the member list), not all are active, so you won't get anywhere near 3000 from just NGF. This is because you've got people like me, who wouldn't want a Pendolino, but if you were talking 4CORs (and derivatives) or 1932 Brighton electrification stock (PUL, PAN, LAV, BIL) then you've got me for several of each.

Other people would like other models (the Clacton '309' stock is one I have seen listed many times on wishlists elsewhere) and others wouldn't know what they wanted unless you presented them with a completed model. How many people model in 'N' gauge to the detail we obviously do, anyway? Unless you can determine that and tailor your offerings accordingly, you're never going to make money or satisfy people's needs.

The manufacturers obviously have the problem in spades because they're the ones whose livelihoods depend on them making the right decisions, and sometimes they can get things spectacularly wrong. The fact that there are still 4Ceps and 350s in stock at the Farish warehouse is obviously a worry for all concerned: Farish because that have all this money tied up in stock going nowhere; and the customer, because that will be the reason that Farish and the like won't go out on a limb and produce the very things that people want but the manufacturers can't sell in the quantities that make economic sense.

But then this situation is where the 3rd party manufacturers (read: kit manufacturers and 'cottage industries') come in and produce what we need for those that have the time, inclination and skill to put together...

The Pendolino was always going to be a tall order using standard production techniques due to the sheer amount of differing window / roof layouts on all the coaches.

With some clever design techniques, such as separate roof modules and a GF-style clear printed bodyshell, the amount of different mouldings could be brought right down, perhaps making a more viable proposition. Whatever transpires, there would have to be one or two compromises.

Perhaps when the WCML franchise changes hands or 390 derivaives appear on other routes, their popularity may increase.

Farish dropped the 222 from their range when it became apparent that all the four coaches were different and the tooling costs would never be recovered. Had they used a 170-style clear shell, then it may not have been such an issue.

Please don't let my liking for the clear shell technique be mistaken as a bias due to their vinylability  - I believe that they are almost as good as standard moulded shells on modern, smooth-sided stock.

I agree with Adam on this to an extent, I would certainly be happy to see cleverly designed models with less detail on them, and the clear sided coaches in N are a good compromise.

I actually prefer the Farish mk3s to the Dapol ones, the windows look better

David

Quote from: Bmthtrains on January 26, 2014, 05:10:48 PM
Ah, yes, the Pendolino would be nice in RTR, but again, it is misreading the N gauge market I think to assume it would work 'as a train set'. The toy or trainset market exists in OO, but does it in N?

David

Yes - in Japan where N is big news and it could be big news for the UK. I could see a Kato unitrack bullet train set selling well on shopping channels like QVC. It fits the bill of being small (rooms are getting smaller), bulletproof, easy to pack away etc.

Sorry for a second bite at the cherry, but I just popped over to 'another place' to check on the results of their 2013 Wishlist Poll. A link to the 'N' Gauge overall results is below.

Their member list is only about a third of the NGF and in the results of the poll the highest polled item in 'N' gauge only got 68 votes - joint second (with a loco) was a railway-related scenery item!

...and the Pendolino was top of the 'EMU' section

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=276133

I think a Virgin-branded 390 trainset with Kato-style track would be a big seller in N and do a lot to encourage younger modellers looking for something with the "wow" factor.

The current crop of UK N Gauge trainsets are pretty dire in that respect. If Auntie Mabel is looking for a present for her train-mad nephew, is she going to buy a rather dull-looking N Gauge set with, say, a J39 or a brightly-boxed Hornby Pendolino or Javelin?

Farish and Dapol could both do with a much better trainset offering to compete with Hornby next Christmas.

Quote from: talisman56 on January 26, 2014, 05:32:15 PM
But then this situation is where the 3rd party manufacturers (read: kit manufacturers and 'cottage industries') come in and produce what we need for those that have the time, inclination and skill to put together...

In my experience electrics don't sell. Even in the kit world.

Pendowobble maybe - but David presumably will get back around to re-doing that once he's bored of printing yellow stuff.

Alan