I have a few questions to ask you all, I am wondering if DCC is good value for the money you pay out, or are you slightly miffed by it all, I have gone down the DCC route and am quite disappointed by the control one has over locomotives, for instance you normally have 2 options and they are drive and directional lights, do you think we should be offered more and would you be prepared to pay for locomotives with more choices built on board the locomotives, ie sound and cab lights also spark lights from 3rd rail locomotives, another reason I ask is you only get drive on steam locomotives, how hard is it to put in a glow coming from the drivers area there are lots of little things that could be made better for DCC enthusiasts, the reason why I ask all these questions is I have noticed a £20 - £30 increase in DCC locomotives over a 2 year stretch, even when the economy is struggling prices are rising but not for the right reasons, are the manufacturers going far enough and do we actually get VFM.

Thank you one and all.

I think it's excellent value

Sure you can have sound, lights, etc, and more if you want it. I think it's Fleischmann that does a multiple unit in HO with opening carriage doors! Isn't cheap though I'd pay more for a loco with more features as standard, some wouldn't as it would hike the price up too much.

Away from the DCC fripperies though you seem to be forgetting the final 'C' in DCC that makes all the difference - CONTROL! Controlling the trains, not the track, is what makes it fantastic value-for-money in my opinion


Paul

I am not against DCC I have now 2 DCC controllers and the control of the trains with speed and braking is brilliant but I am wondering if the manufacturers could put more into there locomotives to give it that extra appeal.

My layout is only in build but it is DCC.  I have a test loop that I use for keeping things running and testing.

I have gone down the DCC route and would consider myself very much a novice but as Paul says above - you drive the Train not the track.

To me the real beauty is tha you can pogram the running qualities of the train.  I have a 60 MPH speed limit on my railway so all trains are configures to run 60mph top speed because of this the 128 speed steps get squashed into the lower end of the speed range and make it more controlable.

I also configure the accelleration / decelleration rates - thus EMU's accellerate more quickly that Freight etc.  The decelleration rate means that you have to plan ahead as to where you want to stop the trains and again Freight slows slower than passenger..

As said above Lights, sound, couplers etc can all be set up with independent actions - i'm not at that stage and dont necessarily want to spend that money but in my opinion, out of the box, it is pretty much it is a step change from DC ..

Now I am wondering about sound though... 

Quote from: Geoff on May 08, 2013, 08:58:23 AM
but I am wondering if the manufacturers could put more into there locomotives to give it that extra appeal.

Yes, of course there is.

How much more would you pay for it !!!  Other people may shun such locos because of all the extra frippery ...

I wonder if your question is a bit misleading - it isn't whether DCC is value for money or not, but whether the manufacturers could exploit it better.

The answer to the value question is entirely personal (for me it is, but I can understand why others would disagree).

On the latter, undoubtedly the manufacturers could do better - independent head/tail lights would be a start, as would a sound ready loco.

Cheers, Mike

I know that 00 has the biggest market and they can get more in a larger loco, N Gauge does have its draw back on size, not sure what the market is compared to 00 but N gauge must be catching up as the quality on most of the stuff is pretty good, so I personally think Manufacturers could accommodate with sound and without sound locomotives at the moment the N gauge modeler has to fit the extras in him or herself, Personally I would rather the manufacturer fit sound or extra DCC stuff rather than myself that way I with my shaky hands would not spoil a decent model locomotive.

Maybe I am going down old ground here but only having a whinge when 00 seem to be getting the cream where N Gauge are playing catchup.

Quote from: Geoff on May 08, 2013, 10:26:42 AM
At the moment the N gauge modeler has to fit the extras in him or herself, Personally I would rather the manufacturer fit sound or extra DCC stuff rather than myself that way I with my shaky hands would not spoil a decent model locomotive.

For me that would come down to cost.
How much would the manufacturers add to the cost of a sound ready,independent light ready loco in N..?.I think it would almost double the price,and in that case i would prefer to put that work in the hands of someone like John at YouChoos or Doug at Wickness,rather than someone in a factory in China
True,you would invalidate the warranty by having the extras added but personally that is a chance i would take.

Quote from: Dock Shunter on May 08, 2013, 10:59:45 AM
For me that would come down to cost.
How much would the manufacturers add to the cost of a sound ready,independent light ready loco in N..?.I think it would almost double the price

Really??? A slight change to a PCB and a space for a speaker and you reckon a doubling of the price! I have no idea what you are basing that upon!

Quote from: red_death on May 08, 2013, 11:12:28 AM

Quote from: Dock Shunter on May 08, 2013, 10:59:45 AM
For me that would come down to cost.

Really??? A slight change to a PCB and a space for a speaker and you reckon a doubling of the price! I have no idea what you are basing that upon!

I was basing that upon the loco having a quality speaker and sound decoder already fitted and sounds loaded,which is why i stated that i would rather have that work done by John or Doug.
Reading back my post i did say "sound ready" so apologize for the confusion.....

Most sound decoders are in the £90 - £110 bracket, realise they'd might be a bit cheaper if on board but doubt if either the decoder manufacturer or the loco manufacturer would recoup their development costs for dedicated chips for relatively small sales.

I'm very pro DCC and sound, it is not just for the loco control either, with DCC you can control everything, points, signals, lighting, coupling, smoke units, gates, when and where loco's use their sound set and totally automatically if needed quite easily with the right sensors etc. 

For instance, I've put sound into my Blue Pullman along with cab and coach lights.  I can then, either manually or automatically (via the laptop and Train Controller), operate the open and close the cab door sound, put the cab light on at the correct end, start up each engine individually, put running lights on and then the carriage lights on.  Once it's running on tickover, after time for passengers to board the guards buzzer sounds in the correct end, the loco gives a toot, the engines start to rev up notch by notch until there is a bit of scream on and then slowly moves off.  When it reaches a tunnel or level crossing the horn sounds automatically.  When it reaches a station, it slows down automatically with slight braking noise if needed, if it's a driver changeover stop, the cab light goes on, the cab door sounds, cab light goes off when new driver on board, guard whistle or buzzer sounds, engines wind up again and the train moves off.

When it reaches its' terminus, loco slows with braking sounds, stops in the platform, after a suitable pause, the shutdown routine kicks in, carriage lights go off, running lights off, engine shutdown sound followed by cab light and then cab door open close sound

Absolute magic to watch and listen too, now tell me DCC is not value for money. 

I found that the investment from DC to DCC on my layout and stock is something that was very well worth doing.  I will never go back to DC.  The more money that you invest into DCC then the better your models become (if you want lights and sounds of course)!  I'm quite happy at the moment slowly converting my models to DCC, and maybe in 5 years time I can afford to include sound and a couple of models.  I'd love to get sound on my Class 455.  To many that would be a waste of money, but to someone who has lived next to a railway line running the 455's they have a very distinctive sound.

In my opinion, the cost of DCC is reasonable as there are suppliers and products to match most people's requirements, whether it be entry level or advanced.

In answer to the OP, model manufacturers have to ship units and the more they cater for the currently fringe requirements of sound and lighting effects, the more expensive the base model becomes and this reduces the potential retail market.

At the moment, people are migrating from DC to DCC and it is starting to get a real foothold in the market. The current line up of models reflect this, being able to run DC out of the box and being DCC Ready by allowing a chip to be inserted easily (as long as it isn't a Dapol 9f  ).

In another 5 years, we may come to expect lights, sounds, bells and whistles from our locos as there will inevitably be a limit to the amount of detailing that can be done with the models and manufacturers will need to deliver other features to keep the market buying. I would guess that we may also be seeing that loco's are sold as DC Compatible because they have integrated DCC Chips ;-)

Cheers, Mark.

I'm a DCC user but wouldn't buy a DCC fitted loco because almost inevitably the decoder that it was fitted with would fall short of what I want either in features or in running quality.  So for me the current situation where many models are available with DCC sockets is pretty good.  Ideally I'd want to see the PluX sockets replace the 6-pin, as this would allow extra functions such as independent tail lights in the same sort of space. 

However I'm not interested in sound, so I wouldn't want to pay for a loco fitted with a sound decoder and I don't think the market can really support each model being available in sound and non-sound (and presumably also DC-only) versions.  I'm quite happy for locos to be supplied "sound ready" with fittings for a speaker etc, as this would cost very little and make life easier for those who wanted it.  However this shouldn't be at the expense of haulage capacity - if this would be compromised then they should supply the loco with a removeable weight in the speaker space. 

Hmm,this is another one of those threads that has individual opinions of each user,whether it is dc or dcc.

There are those that will not move away from dc and vice versa.I am firmly in the dcc camp,however,when I started in dcc over 15 months ago,I did so with the idea of getting some of my stock converted proffessionally by people such as John Youchoos,Wickness,Mercig and others.

Only problem is the cost to do such work.So as I had bought some non dcc ready Farish loco's(class's 40,46,50,55's),I decided to have a dabble myself to see if they are a viable job for me to do at home.I bought a Loksound v4 micro with Legomanbiffo's class 40 sounds on board and had a go.Now as this was my first full sound conversion of a loco,not hst or dmu,I was initially a bit worried I may turn a loco to a pile of scrap but as I didn't pay a lot for the loco,nowhere near full price anyway,I knew if I did ruin it,I could always buy another loco and perhaps have another crack at it.The class 40 does need more work on the chassis than others so,some might say too much in fact,I set to work but did it bit by bit,an hour at a time just so I didn't go too far and ruin it.This proved to be a good approach for me as I would do some filing and grinding,check to see if the bodyshell fitted then go away thinking that it'll never fit.I'd do a bit more the following night and so on until I had a loco that had the work done to accomodate all the necessary equipment to run dcc sound.In the end,my sound conversion was a total success and furthermore,it was done by me,using my hands and tools and to sit back and watch and hear it do what it does is very good.So good that I have started to do conversions of other locos to see if they are viable as well.I now have a sound fitted class 40,50 and a Farish dcc ready class 37.The 37 is done by removing the pcb and rewiring the lights and adding resistors so I don't blow the leds.

As I went into dcc,this was my main aim,to squeeze sound into a loco.I like dcc sound,I was seduced by the added dimension it brings and until you do indeed fit sound into a loco,dmu or hst and actually hear the thing it may always come across as something you may not be able to justify cost wise.I also went into dcc because as has already been said,I didn't want to wire in multiple isolation sections on my layout to accomodate standing/stabling locos and suchlike.

As I said at the top,we all have our own opinions about this subject.A few months ago I would have said that I would like to see manufacturers launching dcc sound fitted loco's like they do in OO gauge and larger scales.Now,however,I don't want,nor beed for them to do this.I'm quite happy to do it myself.It also gives me a bit of a thrill when I turn up at iur club night with my test plank and dcc controller,along with my latest conversion and fire it up for all the other members to have a look.To impress at least one person in the club gives me a little of the incentive that one needs to go further.My next full stripdown of a loco will be a Farish class 24.I have also got someone waiting for me to do mine so that then I can do his and a new tooled Farish class 20.Now having looked at this loco,it will be a bit of a job due to the way the lights are fitted,one end has lighting boards and bare contacts on the cab ends,on the nose ends or bonnet ends they have lighting contacts that are attached to the pcb which has to go because there won't be space to fit a speaker in.I will have a go at it just to say I have done one.I may even but another one to use in a double headed operation.
This is the thing with dcc,it gives you so many more options than plain dc.Thats why I'm firmly of the opinion that it is worthwhile and just as Sprintex has said,the word control means that I drive the train,its just that with sound it tends to make you drive the train a bit more prototypically,ie horns,guards whistle,applying power and making the loco move off as it should instead of applying power to the track and watching it go.Its getting a bit more anorhacky or even god forbid,rivet countery,but as I am about to start in my exhibition layout which will have dcc sound as its main feature,of which there are only one or two exhibition layouts with only one or two sound fitted n gauge locos on them,I believe that I can make this very successful and possibly even quietly,wow the crowds at shows,just like sound in oo gauge a few years ago.

Pete