All steel 'K-type' Pullmans from Revolution
Revolution is delighted to reveal its next range of N gauge coaches will be the much requested all steel 'K-type' Pullman coaches. The K-type Pullmans were the first all steel construction Pullmans in the UK.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/113/2-110921102446.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=113729)
Parlour First "Zena" in the VSOE set at Bristol Temple Meads in April 2012. Photo courtesy of Hugh Llewelyn, Creative Commons CC BY-SA2.0 licence
Metropolitan Cammell built 29 Pullman cars of 5 different body types: Kitchen 1sts and 3rds, Parlour 1sts and 3rds and Parlour Brake 3rds - we will offer all 5 body types in train packs to allow prototypical formations to be assembled.
A further 4 cars (81-84) were built in 1931 for the Bournemouth Belle - we will include these if feasible from the tooling.
Some of the K-types were used by the GWR on Ocean-Liner and Torquay Pullman services from 1929, but perhaps the more famous use was by the LNER and then BR in services such as the Queen of Scots, Tees-Tyne Pullman, Yorkshire Pullman and Master Cutler. By the mid-late 1960s some of the K-types were being used with other Pullman types (particularly the brakes) but unfortunately some were disposed of for scrap. A few of the K-types continue to see service in the Venice Simplon Orient Express (VSOE) and a number survive to this day in preservation.
Our model will feature the same high levels of detail as our Mark 5 coaches and include interior lighting and working table lamps.
The K-type Pullmans are in the final stages of research before we start CAD. We expect the order book for the K-type Pullmans to open late Q4 2021 – Q1 2022.
Cool! :thumbsup:
An open letter to the real world bosses of Messrs Ando and Hale...
To whom it may concern,
Please can you give Ben/Mike more work as I feel they have too much free time on their hands. Time they are using to make wonderful models that I can't resist buying. Thanks in advance.
Yours faithfully, A (Poor) Model Train Addict
I was expecting Mk2b or Mk2c, but this is a great choice!
Steven B
Oh god there goes another £500 onto the credit card I guess. Look awesome however !
Does anyone happen to know if the Pullmans visible in this video from about 5:40 (https://youtu.be/-Z8Zp2RFX4U?t=340) passing through Birmingham Snow Hill are of this type?
Yep, mixed with a few Mk1s.
Nice short train too. 7 coaches. Two Mk 1s probably SKs, two Pullman brakes, likely two Kitchen cars and a Parlour car, methinks.
Can't easily tell so that's a guess.
Great choice for ECML steam and diesel era modellers, also catering for Southern Region and contemporary modellers!
They've been much requested and will fill a big gap in umber and cream Pullman collections.
Hello all,
Thanks for the positive response. We are really looking forward to progressing these models!
Cheers
Ben A.
Right up my street, or should I say "on my Rails" :thumbsup:
Any guesstimate on price as yet? I could need about 10 or a dozen for the Bournemouth Belle
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 11, 2021, 07:08:32 PM
Any guesstimate on price as yet? I could need about 10 or a dozen for the Bournemouth Belle
Gosh @Dorsetmike (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2855) I never thought you would be buying Revolution products.
I'm so happy these have been announced too.
I'm having what you're having.
Bob
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 11, 2021, 07:08:32 PM
Any guesstimate on price as yet? I could need about 10 or a dozen for the Bournemouth Belle
Hi Mike
I did ask Mike Hale as from all accounts this has very much been his baby. He couldn't categorically answer as it is too early in the process but what he did say is to broadly think in the £45-£50 area which is unsurprising given the spec (saloon and table lights working) and comparable price of Farish coaches without these features is understandable.
Will I be ordering when the order book opens? You bet I will, the only question is how many!
Roy
Having just been excited by the Underground stock now the K type Pullmans too!
Off to sell the farm.........
Gerry
Been waiting for these for years!!!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/113/2626-110921230025.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=113759)
Quote from: railsquid on September 11, 2021, 11:51:37 AM
Does anyone happen to know if the Pullmans visible in this video from about 5:40 (https://youtu.be/-Z8Zp2RFX4U?t=340) passing through Birmingham Snow Hill are of this type?
All the Pullmans in the indicated train are 'K' types. The similar looking 1951 Pullmans can be distinguished by having square toilet windows...
NB: The above distinguishing feature only applies to period images. It looks like most, if not all of the preserved examples of 1951-type have oval windows, smaller than those traditionally fitted to the previous type Pullmans, and mounted higher up the bodyside. Whether this is a post-preservation change or something that was implemented during their service life is something I will have to investigate... EDIT: The window change was post-preservation on the VSOE cars to make them similar to the other (majority) of cars on the train which have original oval windows.
The Brighton electrification and 1951 stock have a continuous roof over the end doors, whereas the standard and all-steel 'K'-type have the roof cut back over the end doors.
Brighton electrification stock had oval windows in the end of the coach either side of the gangway connection, instead of the rectangular one seen in the 'K' and 1951 stock.
Pullman coaches were not confined to named express services. I have a pic somewhere of a short Pullman rake at Dorchester carrying VIPs to a fleet review at Portland. And a couple of them ended up as camping coaches behind Wool station.
Quote from: longbow on September 11, 2021, 11:39:34 PM
Pullman coaches were not confined to named express services. I have a pic somewhere of a short Pullman rake at Dorchester carrying VIPs to a fleet review at Portland. And a couple of them ended up as camping coaches behind Wool station.
There's still a couple at Ravenglass.
Quote from: chrism on September 11, 2021, 11:48:15 PM
Quote from: longbow on September 11, 2021, 11:39:34 PM
Pullman coaches were not confined to named express services. I have a pic somewhere of a short Pullman rake at Dorchester carrying VIPs to a fleet review at Portland. And a couple of them ended up as camping coaches behind Wool station.
There's still a couple at Ravenglass.
two are with the VSOE pullman stewarts Lane in london
Quote from: chrism on September 11, 2021, 11:48:15 PM
Quote from: longbow on September 11, 2021, 11:39:34 PMa couple of them ended up as camping coaches behind Wool station.
There's still a couple at Ravenglass.
I believe the Ravenglass coaches are the type preceding the K-types.
The Railway Heritage Register states built 1921 for both...
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2220 (http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2220)
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2218 (http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2218)
Can anyone confirm that this is a "K" Pullman
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rock_dinosaur/77029914/656499/656499_1000.jpg (https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rock_dinosaur/77029914/656499/656499_1000.jpg)
Restaurant Composite car No. Sc219M (formerly Pullman Car Queen Margaret, built in 1927) is about to be removed from the rear of the 11.45am Oban to Glasgow train at Glasgow (Buchanan Street) Station by ex-LMSR Class 4 2-6-4T No. 42207.
Quote from: GlenEglise on September 12, 2021, 02:36:28 AM
Can anyone confirm that this is a "K" Pullman
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rock_dinosaur/77029914/656499/656499_1000.jpg (https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rock_dinosaur/77029914/656499/656499_1000.jpg)
Restaurant Composite car No. Sc219M (formerly Pullman Car Queen Margaret, built in 1927) is about to be removed from the rear of the 11.45am Oban to Glasgow train at Glasgow (Buchanan Street) Station by ex-LMSR Class 4 2-6-4T No. 42207.
It is a 'K' type Pullman, but from the look of the raised beading it is not an all-steel car, so not one of those to be produced by RevolutioN.
Thanks Talisman. I miss out again I think.
Guess these are non-starters also?
Running Name Schedule No. Type Service Builder Wheels Roof Dimensions Seating Weight SECR Route Newsletter Notes
Lady Nairne 138 142 DC 6/22 MRC&W 8 elliptical 57'10 x 8'7 12F 18T 321/2 - -- 27 Caledonian Railway cars built on the chassis of an ex GWR WW1 Ambulance car.
Bonnie Jean 139 143 DC 6/22 MRC&W 8 elliptical 57'10 x 8'7 12F 18T 321/2 - -- 28 Both cars initially used on the Glasgow to Aviemore service.
Quote from: GlenEglise on September 12, 2021, 03:22:41 AM
Thanks Talisman. I miss out again I think.
Guess these are non-starters also?
Running Name Schedule No. Type Service Builder Wheels Roof Dimensions Seating Weight SECR Route Newsletter Notes
Lady Nairne 138 142 DC 6/22 MRC&W 8 elliptical 57'10 x 8'7 12F 18T 321/2 - -- 27 Caledonian Railway cars built on the chassis of an ex GWR WW1 Ambulance car.
Bonnie Jean 139 143 DC 6/22 MRC&W 8 elliptical 57'10 x 8'7 12F 18T 321/2 - -- 28 Both cars initially used on the Glasgow to Aviemore service.
Yes, both are earlier than the all-steel cars, and additionally fail because they were built onto previously-used chassis.
Fabulous news! I only wish I could justify buying some. :( . Turning my East Anglian rural branch line into a heritage railway seems a bit of a cop-out. Although, it would mean I could justify running my bigger locos...
Needs thinking about. :hmmm:
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Papyrus on September 13, 2021, 10:20:24 AM
Fabulous news! I only wish I could justify buying some. :( . Turning my East Anglian rural branch line into a heritage railway seems a bit of a cop-out. Although, it would mean I could justify running my bigger locos...
Needs thinking about. :hmmm:
Something tells me you have already thought about it previously :smiley-laughing:
Not really, no. It was salivating over the thought of a Revolution Pullman that triggered the idea!
Cheers,
Chris
Well Done Revolution! like many others I have wanted someone to produce a set of K type Pullmans to modern standards. As to the price, it is no surprise to me that they will be £45-£50. although my wallet may have a heart attack I will consider it money well spent. for those who think it too much, i suggest waiting until these arrive, then looking at ebay for the old Graham Farish ones to appear as I am sure they will.
Regards,
Alex
They'll be brilliant. Can't wait! :thumbsup:
I'm considering investing in a pair of parlour brake 3rds making up the end coaches with Mk1 Pullmans of a post-1960 Master Cutler Pullman service
Quote from: gc4946 on September 13, 2021, 01:16:30 PM
I'm considering investing in a pair of parlour brake 3rds making up the end coaches with Mk1 Pullmans of a post-1960 Master Cutler Pullman service
Actually none of us know how Revolution plan to market these models. They have suggested coach packs as per the Mk 5 coaches.
You don't know if you will be able to purchase separate coaches.
Bob
Dont remember seeing anything about this at Tings
Packs of 5 around the £ 200 + mark will certainly be a little off putting for the purchaser of 1 or 2 unless said person then puts the others on ebuy.
Soon as first saw this i thought - there were a couple on the Hook continental ? werent there , and as i have a Brit and a B 17 and some dapol gresleys Its a must have.
Hello all,
Exact format and pricing is yet to be decided.
Having said that, for this project to work we need to ensure all types (Brake 3rd, Parlour 1st/3rd and Kitchen 1st/3rd) reach the minimum numbers for production.
With this in mind it makes sense to package them into packs as we have for other models: we are selling the Drax hoppers in pairs, the Caledonian Sleeper mk5s in packs of four and the TPE Mk5s in packs of five.
However let me emphasise again that we haven't yet finalised how the Pullmans will be marketed, and are always open to suggestions or ideas within the caveat mentioned above.
cheers
Ben A.
The Mk5s only made sense to sell in packs as they run in fixed rakes.
The K types use was obviously very different so our initial thoughts are a combination of train packs and possibly some individual coaches but we will reveal more information late this year or early next year. We've done a lot of research already but we've got to translate that into a financially realistic model offering which we will do as quickly as possible.
Thanks for all the interest!
Cheers Mike
Quote from: Ben A on September 13, 2021, 01:42:19 PM
Having said that, for this project to work we need to ensure all types (Brake 3rd, Parlour 1st/3rd and Kitchen 1st/3rd) reach the minimum numbers for production.
With this in mind it makes sense to package them into packs as we have for other models: we are selling the Drax hoppers in pairs, the Caledonian Sleeper mk5s in packs of four and the TPE Mk5s in packs of five.
Hi Ben,
As well as whatever packs you opt to produce, may I suggest offering additional loose Brake 3rds? The reason for this is that these Brake 3rds were often mixed with the newer Mk1 Pullman coaches on the ECML since no Mk1 Brakes were built. This would broaden the appeal to include people who have already bought the Farish Mk1 Pullmans. You can see them in service here.
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-6751-12589188926608.jpg)
(https://railphotoprints.uk/img/s/v-10/p3353344862-3.jpg)
(https://outwoodcommunityvideo.co.uk/_Media/a37_med_hr.jpeg)
Quote from: gc4946 on September 11, 2021, 05:10:15 PM
Great choice for ECML steam and diesel era modellers, also catering for Southern Region and contemporary modellers!
They've been much requested and will fill a big gap in umber and cream Pullman collections.
They are good for western modellers too I think. The South Wales Pullman made use of K-Types I think.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50050676972_5265a8901d_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33622047176_d5b1bff6de_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7526/16253742732_ad00b2e1a9_h.jpg)
(https://davidheyscollection-static.myshopblocks.com/images/cm/7092d247a5e5fce4f98fd2c416c0fa35.jpg)
Is that a King or a Castle at the head of those Pullmans?
I never know, because (wait for it) "All GWR 4-6-0s look the same" (runs for cover behind a number of Green SR EMUs, all different!)
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on September 13, 2021, 02:26:00 PM
Is that a King or a Castle at the head of those Pullmans?
I never know, because (wait for it) "All GWR 4-6-0s look the same" (runs for cover behind a number of Green SR EMUs, all different!)
Bob
If I were you I would also keep the sun glasses on whilst hiding in all those lookalike EMU's 8)
Quote from: red_death on September 13, 2021, 01:48:02 PM
The Mk5s only made sense to sell in packs as they run in fixed rakes.
The K types use was obviously very different so our initial thoughts are a combination of train packs and possibly some individual coaches but we will reveal more information late this year or early next year. We've done a lot of research already but we've got to translate that into a financially realistic model offering which we will do as quickly as possible.
Thanks for all the interest!
Cheers Mike
Hi Mike
Great choice.
I'm definitely up for some southern versions. Or even anything you make Pullman wise.
There is a thread on RMWeb I'm sure you have seen where the coaches used on the SR were discussed. Agatha and Lorraine spring to mind, but the biggest choice you have is whether to model the numbered coaches as either "Car No 79" (the post 1956 period) or "Car No 79 - Third Class" (the 1931-1956 period) or indeed both.
Also not sure if these were K's or not, but "In 1958 seven Pullman cars were sold to the Southern Region, repainted green and used as buffets, mainly in Southampton boat trains, until withdrawn in 1963". https://sremg.org.uk/coach/pullman.shtml
Must do some more research to figure this out, although repainting a Revolution Pullman in SR Green would be one heck of a waste of a lovely colour scheme.
Bob
Quote from: Nbodger on September 13, 2021, 02:32:14 PM
Quote from: Bob G on September 13, 2021, 02:26:00 PM
Is that a King or a Castle at the head of those Pullmans?
I never know, because (wait for it) "All GWR 4-6-0s look the same" (runs for cover behind a number of Green SR EMUs, all different!)
Bob
If I were you I would also keep the sun glasses on whilst hiding in all those lookalike EMU's 8)
Yeah but not the duff ones :)
You just can't tell who is making a jape on here any more. LOL
Quote from: Bob G on September 13, 2021, 02:26:00 PM
Is that a King or a Castle at the head of those Pullmans?
I never know, because (wait for it) "All GWR 4-6-0s look the same" (runs for cover behind a number of Green SR EMUs, all different!)
Ruddy cheek! ;)
The South Wales Pullman was normally castle-hauled I think. The only shot I have found of a King with Pullman coaches was in the early days of preservation.
(http://cdn.ipernity.com/137/00/15/26500015.b7df5862.240.jpg?r2)
Quote from: red_death on September 13, 2021, 01:48:02 PM
The Mk5s only made sense to sell in packs as they run in fixed rakes.
The K types use was obviously very different so our initial thoughts are a combination of train packs and possibly some individual coaches but we will reveal more information late this year or early next year. We've done a lot of research already but we've got to translate that into a financially realistic model offering which we will do as quickly as possible.
Thanks for all the interest!
Cheers Mike
Surely there would be a fairly normal ratio in these trains of Kitchens to parlours and 1st to 3rds ( 3rd class pullman isnt that an oxymoron) which your research has kicked up already. I really appreciate it when suppliers not only produce items but give plenty of back story to their models though sometimes this is disappointing when the model is superb but you arent keen on rule one (its a prototype on test - honest!)
Good luck to anyone suggesting normal ratios out of this lot:
1955 Queen of Scots
3rd Parlour (Mon-Friday only. removed @ Leeds)
1st Kitchen (Mon-Friday only. removed @ Leeds)
3rd Brake
3rd Kitchen
3rd Parlour (Fri & Sat only)
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
3rd Parlour
3rd Brake
1959 Master Cutler
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
2nd Brake
1955 Tees-Tyne Pullman
3rd Brake
1st Kitchen (FX)
3rd Kitchen (FO)
1st Parlour
3rd Bar-Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Parlour
3rd Kitchen
3rd Brake
? Queen of Scots
2nd Kitchen (removed at Leeds)
1st Kitchen (removed at Leeds)
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen
2nd Parlour (FO)
1st Parlour (FXO
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
2nd Parlour
2nd Kitchen
? 17:20 Yorkshire Pullman
2nd Brake (Harrogate portion)
2nd Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
2nd Parlour
1st Parlour (Bradford Portion)
2nd Kitchen
Mk1 BCK (Leeds Central)
2nd Kitchen (Hull Portion)
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
2nd Brake
1959 Queen of Scots
2nd Kitchen (to Leeds)
1st Kitchen (to Leeds)
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen
2nd Parlour
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
2nd Parlour
2nd Kitchen
2nd Brake
1959 Master Cutler
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
2nd Brake
1959 Yorkshire Pullman
2nd Brake (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
1st Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Parlour (Harrogate)
1st Parlour (Bradford Exc)
2nd Kitchen (Bradford Exc)
Mk1 BCK (Leeds)
2nd Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Parlour (Hull)
1st Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Brake (Hull)
1963 Queen of Scots
2nd Parlour (removed at Leeds)
1st Kitchen (removed at Leeds)
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen (Y)
2nd Parlour
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
2nd Parlour
2nd Brake
1963 Tees-Tyne Pullman
2nd Brake
1st Parlour (FX)
2nd Kitchen (FO)
1st Kitchen
2nd Bar-Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Parlour
2nd Kitchen
2nd Brake
The Queen of Scots ran between King's Cross (KX) and Glasgow, dropping off two coaches in Leeds on the way north. The Master Cutler ran from KX to Sheffield, with the Tees-Tyne Pullman running KX to Newcastle.
The Yorkshire Pullman split at Leeds, with portions going to Bradford, Harrogate and Hull. In LNER days the Bradford portion ran as far as Halifax with a 0-6-2 tank engine in charge.
In most cases the kitchen ends of the cars would be facing the centre of the train, except where two are next to each other, in which case the one towards the end of the train would have its kitchen pointing towards the end.
If I were Mike or Ben I'd be tempted to do two packs as a minimum:
2nd Brake+2nd Parlour + 2nd Kitchen
and
1st Parlour+1st Kitchen
or
1st Parlour+1st Kitchen+1st Kitchen
With the following as options:
2x 1st Kitchen
2x 2nd Brake (to run with Mk1 Pullmans)
Steven B.
The Queen of Scots was probably the most well known train that was regularly all steel K types - the K type "bible" by A Ford has a number of example rakes using all steel K types (plus examples of train rakes with a mix of all steel K types and other Pullman cars).
We will offer as much choice as is feasible but we have to start somewhere (in the large number of Pullman batches!).
As per our announcement we're doing all 5 all steel K type body shells ie Kitchen 1sts and 3rds, Parlour 1sts and 3rds and Parlour Brake 3rds.
Cheers M
I'd buy a twin pack of brakes to go with Mk1 Pullmans if offered, please :thumbsup:
Someone with more time/patience than me has found the following formation for the 1958 South Wales Pullman.
August 1958 South Wales Pullman formation (starting from locomotive) of:
Car No.55 K-type 36/24 seat?? 3rd Brake (a.k.a. Guard Parlour)
Car No.169 (or 171) K-type 30 seat 3rd Kitchen
Car No.35 K-type 54 seat 3rd Parlour
Diamond* K-type 22 seat Kitchen, the "Daffodil" Bar
Rosamund K-type 22 seat 1st Kitchen
Zena K-type ?? seat 1st Parlour
Cecilia K-type 22 seat 1st Kitchen
Car No.54 (or 27) K-type 36/24 seat?? 3rd Brake (Guard Parlour)
Most of the K types in that S Wales formation demonstrate the challenge of Pullmans in that although they are all/mostly K types very few are 1928 all steel K types! Only Zena from a quick look is an all steel K type.
When I've got a bit more time I'll put a full list of all the all steel K types on our website. The third class cars are 67-80 plus 81-84 (1931 build) plus 15 named Cars.
Cheers Mike
Thanks for the clarification Mike. Even if they are not exactly correct, they would still be close enough for me to justify them to myself on a WR layout.
I must admit I wasn't going to drawn into a possible purchase until that @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) stuck his oar in with the South Wales Pullman :doh: ;D
However, if you can knock up a 'Falcon' for release with the 'K's then I'll definitely be up for it ;) ;)
Quote from: Karhedron on September 13, 2021, 02:12:31 PM
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-6751-12589188926608.jpg)
This is the contradiction of N - The fact is that its so small that to the untrained eye minor detail differences are easily passed over - not small enough that the trained eye cant pick out the details that make certain models 'wrong type, wrong place, wrong time'.
At the end of the day i think i would prefer to have a reproduction that is beautiful in its own right and a close facsimile of what i am trying to model than something that is more prototypical but badly proportioned/detailed etc that might be just me...
Quote from: Newportnobby on September 13, 2021, 04:16:55 PM
I must admit I wasn't going to drawn into a possible purchase until that @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) stuck his oar in with the South Wales Pullman :doh: ;D
(https://i.imgflip.com/297pqx.jpg)
Quote from: Bob G on September 13, 2021, 02:37:12 PM
Also not sure if these were K's or not, but "In 1958 seven Pullman cars were sold to the Southern Region, repainted green and used as buffets, mainly in Southampton boat trains, until withdrawn in 1963". https://sremg.org.uk/coach/pullman.shtml
Bob
These were 'K' types, Bob, but the 'Standard' wooden bodied ones...
@class8mikado (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6097)
The 'Hook Continental' had Pullman buffet cars 'Irene' and 'Fortuna' in the 1938 set which lasted until 1963/4. I don't know what type these were. Internally, ther stock was similar to that of the 'Coronation' or Silver Jubilee' rather than standard vehicles, and AFAIK, not articulated. They did have the 'normal' teak sided finish rather than the special sides of the Streamliners.
About the early/mid 70s, there was one or two Mk1 Pullmans declassified to First in the set; I don't know when these went, but seemingly before 1983.
Martyn
A list of all the All-Steel 'K'-type Pullmans and basic info, including where they were allocated.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/113/2626-130921180648.jpeg)
Note: Cars No. 73 and 74 were named 'Ceteia' and 'Melandra' repectively between Sep-62 and Oct-63.
'Belinda' received LNER-pattern bogies at an unknown date.
'Thelma' and Cars No. 73 and 79 received replacement vestibule doors with smaller windows c1952.
@talisman56 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2626) You are a star. Thank you.
Did they look the same till 1956 (when 3rd class was changed to 2nd), or was the lettering different in the pre- and post-war periods?
Quote from: Hiawatha on September 13, 2021, 06:05:56 PM
Did they look the same till 1956 (when 3rd class was changed to 2nd), or was the lettering different in the pre- and post-war periods?
The First Class cars changed very little externally; the Third Class cars initially started out with 'Car No. xx Third Class' in the central body nameplate; this was changed post-war to 'Third Class Car No. xx', but almost soon after to just 'Car No. xx'*. All cars overhauled after the start of 1959 received a simplified lining scheme and a new, smaller and wider, Pullman Crest.
*Certainly by 1950 when Third Brake No.79 was photographed freshly outshopped from Preston Park.
Quote from: Steven B on September 13, 2021, 03:28:31 PM
? 17:20 Yorkshire Pullman
2nd Brake (Harrogate portion)
2nd Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
2nd Parlour
1st Parlour (Bradford Portion)
2nd Kitchen
Mk1 BCK (Leeds Central)
2nd Kitchen (Hull Portion)
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
2nd Brake
1959 Yorkshire Pullman
2nd Brake (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
1st Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Parlour (Harrogate)
1st Parlour (Bradford Exc)
2nd Kitchen (Bradford Exc)
Mk1 BCK (Leeds)
2nd Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Parlour (Hull)
1st Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Brake (Hull)
The Yorkshire Pullman split at Leeds, with portions going to Bradford, Harrogate and Hull. In LNER days the Bradford portion ran as far as Halifax with a 0-6-2 tank engine in charge.
I was looking at the Hull portion of the YP as a prototypical short rake. :) but Ive not found a photo (yet) I can definitively say is entirely all steel K types... I understood though that it was detached from the main portion at Doncaster rather than Leeds? Most common motive power between Hull & Donny appears to be a V1 or V3 tank, and it seems on occasions to have a full brake (Thompson or mk1) hung on the back...
Quote from: Steven B on September 13, 2021, 03:28:31 PM
1959 Queen of Scots
2nd Kitchen (to Leeds)
1st Kitchen (to Leeds)
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen
2nd Parlour
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
2nd Parlour
2nd Kitchen
2nd Brake
1959 Master Cutler
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
2nd Brake
1959 Yorkshire Pullman
2nd Brake (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
1st Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Parlour (Harrogate)
1st Parlour (Bradford Exc)
2nd Kitchen (Bradford Exc)
Mk1 BCK (Leeds)
2nd Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Parlour (Hull)
1st Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Brake (Hull)
1963 Queen of Scots
2nd Parlour (removed at Leeds)
1st Kitchen (removed at Leeds)
2nd Brake
2nd Kitchen (Y)
2nd Parlour
1st Parlour
1st Kitchen
1st Kitchen
2nd Parlour
2nd Brake
1963 Tees-Tyne Pullman
2nd Brake
1st Parlour (FX)
2nd Kitchen (FO)
1st Kitchen
2nd Bar-Kitchen
1st Kitchen
1st Parlour
2nd Kitchen
2nd Brake
Steven B.
For the 1959 formations there must be some 'Standard' (wooden bodied) 'K'-types included as there is a need for 27 Pullmans for those services, and there were only 32 All-Steel K-types. Some spare vehicles must be allowed for.
The 1963 services would be Mark I Pullmans with 'K'-type Parlour Second Brakes.
The LNER (ER in British Railways days) tended to skim off the more modern stock and leave the Southern with the older stock on the Pullman roster. Between 1949 and the end of 1960 all the All-Steel 'K'-types were on the LNER/ER. It was only when the Mark I Pullmans were coming on stock that the transfers to the SR took place, for the 'Bournemouth Belle' and Ocean Liner services.
Quote from: martyn on September 13, 2021, 05:04:34 PM
@class8mikado (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6097)
The 'Hook Continental' had Pullman buffet cars 'Irene' and 'Fortuna' in the 1938 set which lasted until 1963/4. I don't know what type these were. Internally, ther stock was similar to that of the 'Coronation' or Silver Jubilee' rather than standard vehicles, and AFAIK, not articulated. They did have the 'normal' teak sided finish rather than the special sides of the Streamliners.
About the early/mid 70s, there was one or two Mk1 Pullmans declassified to First in the set; I don't know when these went, but seemingly before 1983.
Martyn
'Irene' and 'Fortuna' were Standard (wooden-bodied) 'K'-types.
Quote from: gc4946 on September 13, 2021, 01:16:30 PM
I'm considering investing in a pair of parlour brake 3rds making up the end coaches with Mk1 Pullmans of a post-1960 Master Cutler Pullman service
That's exactly what I want too! However, as there are plans for the full range, I think I will also want at least one full rake of K-types. Looks like quite a few hundred quid to get past "the management"... :uneasy:
Hope there is a gap between release of these and the 1938 stock....
Quote from: talisman56 on September 14, 2021, 02:48:14 AM
Quote from: martyn on September 13, 2021, 05:04:34 PM
@class8mikado (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6097)
The 'Hook Continental' had Pullman buffet cars 'Irene' and 'Fortuna' in the 1938 set which lasted until 1963/4. I don't know what type these were. Internally, ther stock was similar to that of the 'Coronation' or Silver Jubilee' rather than standard vehicles, and AFAIK, not articulated. They did have the 'normal' teak sided finish rather than the special sides of the Streamliners.
About the early/mid 70s, there was one or two Mk1 Pullmans declassified to First in the set; I don't know when these went, but seemingly before 1983.
Martyn
'Irene' and 'Fortuna' were Standard (wooden-bodied) 'K'-types.
@class8mikado (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6097)
The first part of my post was poorly written, here's a second attempt, with an update based on Talisman56 reply;
The 1938 Hook Continental set, which lasted until 1963/4, had cars 'Irene' and 'Fortuna' .
The other coaches in the set resembled externally the standard LNER teak coaches, but internally resembled the insides of the Streamliners, including semi-open vehicles. I think at least some of the diagrams were unique to this set, though one or two standard vehicles were included.
Hope that makes a bit more sense. I didn't mean it to imply that the Pullmans internally resembled the Streamliners.
Martyn
Thanks for the Clarification, i have a book which details the LNER Coaches but not the pullman ones :thumbsup:
so were these both k type ( wooden bodied) brakes ?
Quote from: talisman56 on September 14, 2021, 02:28:14 AM
For the 1959 formations there must be some 'Standard' (wooden bodied) 'K'-types included as there is a need for 27 Pullmans for those services, and there were only 32 All-Steel K-types. Some spare vehicles must be allowed for.
The 1963 services would be Mark I Pullmans with 'K'-type Parlour Second Brakes.
The LNER (ER in British Railways days) tended to skim off the more modern stock and leave the Southern with the older stock on the Pullman roster. Between 1949 and the end of 1960 all the All-Steel 'K'-types were on the LNER/ER. It was only when the Mark I Pullmans were coming on stock that the transfers to the SR took place, for the 'Bournemouth Belle' and Ocean Liner services.
The later trains are also complicated by the building of the "Festival of Britain" Pullmans in 1951 which would no doubt be mixed in with the existing stock.
As ever, building accurate train formations is going to be a matter of detective work with period photos and a good knowledge of the coaches themselves. Anyone doing so will struggle with photographers preference to photo the engine on the front, rather than getting an angle where the whole train can be seen!
Realistically with the mixing of different Pullman types within trains, using the Revolution all steel K-Type will only give a flavour of a Pullman train - particularly if modelling BR(S) or BR(W). Hopefully they'll sell well and lead to some of the earlier builds being produced.
Steven B
Quote from: class8mikado on September 14, 2021, 09:16:34 AM
Thanks for the Clarification, i have a book which details the LNER Coaches but not the pullman ones :thumbsup:
so were these both k type ( wooden bodied) brakes ?
'Irene' and 'Fortuna' were Kitchen First cars.
Quote from: Steven B on September 14, 2021, 09:39:30 AM
Quote from: talisman56 on September 14, 2021, 02:28:14 AM
For the 1959 formations there must be some 'Standard' (wooden bodied) 'K'-types included as there is a need for 27 Pullmans for those services, and there were only 32 All-Steel K-types. Some spare vehicles must be allowed for.
The 1963 services would be Mark I Pullmans with 'K'-type Parlour Second Brakes.
The LNER (ER in British Railways days) tended to skim off the more modern stock and leave the Southern with the older stock on the Pullman roster. Between 1949 and the end of 1960 all the All-Steel 'K'-types were on the LNER/ER. It was only when the Mark I Pullmans were coming on stock that the transfers to the SR took place, for the 'Bournemouth Belle' and Ocean Liner services.
The later trains are also complicated by the building of the "Festival of Britain" Pullmans in 1951 which would no doubt be mixed in with the existing stock.
As ever, building accurate train formations is going to be a matter of detective work with period photos and a good knowledge of the coaches themselves. Anyone doing so will struggle with photographers preference to photo the engine on the front, rather than getting an angle where the whole train can be seen!
Realistically with the mixing of different Pullman types within trains, using the Revolution all steel K-Type will only give a flavour of a Pullman train - particularly if modelling BR(S) or BR(W). Hopefully they'll sell well and lead to some of the earlier builds being produced.
Steven B
IIRC the 1951 Pullmans found themselves on the SR Eastern Section 'Golden Arrow' and Western Section Ocean Liner Express services more often than not.
Quote from: talisman56 on September 14, 2021, 10:21:25 AM
Quote from: class8mikado on September 14, 2021, 09:16:34 AM
Thanks for the Clarification, i have a book which details the LNER Coaches but not the pullman ones :thumbsup:
so were these both k type ( wooden bodied) brakes ?
'Irene' and 'Fortuna' were Kitchen First cars.
Thank you. Looks like farish got that wrong then
Some more detail (all taken from Ford's Pullman Profile No 3).
1938 allocations (non LNER):
Bournemouth Belle: Juana and Ursula
Ocean Liner Express: Group 1: Evadne, Lucille, Loraine; Group 2: Ione, Eunice; Group 3: Zena
Various LNER/ER Queen of Scots rakes:
April 1948: 77, 70, 75, Juana, Ione, 83, 81, 79, Agatha, 67 (all steel K types)
August 1951: 65, 72, 83, Loraine, Lucille, 64*, 107*, 161*
Feb 1957: 78, 68, Juana, Belinda, Cynthia*, 83, 79
(* not steel K types)
I've got some more all steel K type full rakes for the QoS somewhere in my research.
Yorkshire Pullman
June 1953: 79, 70, 75, 73, Ursula, Ione, 71, 78 (all steel K types)
There's a lot more information in Antony Ford's book for anyone interested in more details.
Cheers Mike
Quote from: Newportnobby on September 13, 2021, 04:16:55 PM
However, if you can knock up a 'Falcon' for release with the 'K's then I'll definitely be up for it ;) ;)
BHE still list a Falcon as an etched kit. No idea how good it is or if it is still available but if it is, you have no excuse, Mick!
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Papyrus on September 14, 2021, 01:20:08 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on September 13, 2021, 04:16:55 PM
However, if you can knock up a 'Falcon' for release with the 'K's then I'll definitely be up for it ;) ;)
BHE still list a Falcon as an etched kit. No idea how good it is or if it is still available but if it is, you have no excuse, Mick!
Cheers,
Chris
How about 'not physically capable', Chris?
Great choice of prototype!
Here's another vote for releasing the steel type-K brakes as individual vehicles or in 2-packs to run with the GF by Bachmann Mk.1 Pullmans. Although, technically, I think these should be Parlour Brake Seconds (rather than Parlour Brake Thirds) to run with the Mk.1 Pullmans which were introduced in 1960.
Also, a plea to make sure that the Umber & Cream liveries of the proposed steel K-types match the GF by Bachmann models. I know that this is obvious, but I believe that there have been some strange matches on carmine & cream (and even maroon) coaches made by different manufacturers.
Yours in anticipation
Ian
Quote from: icairns on September 15, 2021, 01:51:55 AM
Although, technically, I think these should be Parlour Brake Seconds (rather than Parlour Brake Thirds) to run with the Mk.1 Pullmans which were introduced in 1960.
Fortunately the Parlour Brake Seconds are just the Parlour Brake Thirds with the class numbers changed - third class travel in the UK ended in June 1956 (as in the rest of main-land Europe). Until that time it was only BR(S) boat trains that had all three classes - third class accommodation having to be provided on each train.
Steven B.
I'll get some of these to use on my "Golden Arrow" and as loose coaches in boat trains even though they are not strictly correct. I think they should be the older wooden bodied type but in N and from normal viewing distances I think the fact there is a well modelled Pullman is more important than the right name and number.......
Dave
In addition to a full representative "Queen of Scots" set, I'd like to add my "Plus 1" to the double-pack of Brake thirds to accompany the Mk1 Pullmans.
Best
Scott.
Anyone know what the two car Bradford Portion of the Yorkshire Pullman in the 1950's was made up of. ?
DELETED
Sorry, I misread the request.
Best
Scott.
I notice that the status of K-Type Pullmans on the Revolution Trains website has changed to;
"Order book will open late Nov/early Dec 2024"
:claphappy:
Quote from: Stuart Down Under on December 05, 2024, 11:09:40 PMI notice that the status of K-Type Pullmans on the Revolution Trains website has changed to;
"Order book will open late Nov/early Dec 2024"
:claphappy:
Erm, it is early December and having checked the Revolution website, the order books are yet to open. For those who have waited so patiently, hopefully it is imminent.
Status on Revolution Project List now updated to;
"Order book will open Jan 2025".
:-\
Hi all,
We introduced the Project Development page to enable customers to check for themselves rather than asking 'what's the latest on...?' across the various platforms we use and then having to wait for an answer.
However, we don't claim it is totally accurate as most will understand that in any product development there can be unanticipated hiccups.
Our timeline predictions are always our 'best guess' when we make them, and shouldn't be taken as absolute guarantees.
cheers
Ben A.
Hi Ben/Revolution.
Any update on the order book opening for the K Type Pullmans (and I do hope you have accommodated my Bournemouth Belle info so you can produce a six car pack to run with two BGs)
Your website suggested we could pre-order in January 2025...
(I'm drooling in anticipation for the PEP 313s, by the way)
Bob
Quote from: Ben A on January 09, 2025, 12:46:05 AMHi all,
We introduced the Project Development page to enable customers to check for themselves rather than asking 'what's the latest on...?' across the various platforms we use and then having to wait for an answer.
However, we don't claim it is totally accurate as most will understand that in any product development there can be unanticipated hiccups.
Our timeline predictions are always our 'best guess' when we make them, and shouldn't be taken as absolute guarantees.
cheers
Ben A.
As always thanks.
It seems no matter how many times you post in threads like this, people still just don't get it.
Even the old farts seem caught up in the 21st Century, internet generated need for instant gratification :D
Well well well. Social media trolling comes to the N gauge forum.
You write a pleasant note keen to part with your money on items due shortly and in planning, and you get lambasted.
The website is out of date. I did check first.
I don't think Rapido or Dapol have such a keen following, so I'll focus my attention on the producers of green diesels and 9 and 10 foot wagons if that's what is required (having preordered 15 Yeoman bogie hoppers only last week, admittedly in an early livery, so perhaps that doesn't count).
Maybe some of the grumpy old men would like to see the promised transition era models produced before they transition to a higher plane?
Grumpy Bob
Quote from: Bob G on February 09, 2025, 10:42:53 AMWell well well. Social media trolling comes to the N gauge forum.
You write a pleasant note keen to part with your money on items due shortly and in planning, and you get lambasted.
The website is out of date. I did check first.
I don't think Rapido or Dapol have such a keen following, so I'll focus my attention on the producers of green diesels and 9 and 10 foot wagons if that's what is required (having preordered 15 Yeoman bogie hoppers only last week, admittedly in an early livery, so perhaps that doesn't count).
Maybe some of the grumpy old men would like to see the promised transition era models produced before they transition to a higher plane?
Grumpy Bob
Hi Bob
I am in agreement with what you say. I regularly check the Revolution project page to see if there has been any update on transition projects and had also noticed that the K order book did not in fact open in January as it said would be the case, but decided not to comment/query it because I too usually get some pompous and self righteous response.
That's OK because as a customer, ultimately it is we who have a choice where we spend our money and who we buy/order from and also a right to share our views and opinions.
Regards
Roy
Could it be that there's no update because there's no news?! :doh:
I must admit that I get a bit tired of the constant hassleing of REVOLUTION regarding their product development.
You don't get that level of vitriol levelled at the other maunfacturers.
Revolution like to engage and give their best intentioned timelines. Other manufacturers less so.
So, you ZEALOTS why not cut Revolution some loose.
They are a small band and aiming to supply items other manufacturers wouldn't touch.
GET OVER YOUR SELF INDULGENCE.
GE
Quote from: GlenEglise on February 09, 2025, 09:33:48 PMRevolution like to engage and give their best timelines.
They are a small band and aiming to supply items other manufacturers wouldn't touch.
I've deleted the unnecessary and provocative text.
Revolution's modus operandi is now just as commercial as the other manufacturers. Head to head on 59 and 66 is not niche. But bagging models and not developing them is just part of the world we live in today.
Frankly I'd like K type pullmans and class 120 DMUs and I don't care who develops them but I'd like to see some response from the manufacturer as to realistic timelines.
We've had such a go at Dapol over the last 10 years that they now have someone here who interacts and responds.
Farish now tell us what's coming within 3 months.
So why do we have such long development times between promise and CAD? I've given my knowledge to Revolution to advance the 120 and in support of other projects that didn't go forward.
Bob
Since Farish first produced the Mk 1 Pullmans in 2018, all I have hoped for is that someone would offer the K-type brake, so that realistic formations could be produced. Three years later Revolution added the K-types to their project list. Another 3 years on and we still live in hope. For an old bloke like me, those 6 years represented 40% of my life expectancy.
I'm not grumpy, just sad...
:(
Quote from: GlenEglise on February 09, 2025, 09:33:48 PMI must admit that I get a bit tired of the constant hassleing of REVOLUTION regarding their product development.
You don't get that level of vitriol levelled at the other maunfacturers.
Revolution like to engage and give their best intentioned timelines. Other manufacturers less so.
So, you ZEALOTS why not cut Revolution some loose.
They are a small band and aiming to supply items other manufacturers wouldn't touch.
GET OVER YOUR SELF INDULGENCE.
GE
Respectfully, other manufacturers DO receive their share of criticism where it is warranted. For just one recent example I would invite you to consider the EFE D600 "Warship" grounding issues. I see absolutely no reason why any manufacturer should be put on a pedestal and be considered above any kind of negative comment or for some reason cut any more slack than any other. Since you choose to use the word "zealot" to describe such people I would invite you to look up the meaning of the word: -
"a person who has very strong opinions about something, and tries to make other people have them too".
From where I am sitting this describes your comments just as much as it does any of the other things that have been said, except that you would wish us to comply with what you say.
From any perspective these days Revolution Trains are no longer the champion of "niche" products, the ones they choose have commercial "legs" and by their own admission do not depend on a pure "crowdfunding" model for success. In saying this I am not being critical and I do not blame them, they are now a commercially driven business and no longer solely philanthropic to the N Gauge cause, they have to make money.
With that comes an expectation from customers which is the same as for any other commercial manufacturer, so again with respect, they should be entitled to no more "slack" than anyone else.
Roy
Quote from: Stuart Down Under on February 09, 2025, 10:35:01 PMSince Farish first produced the Mk 1 Pullmans in 2018, all I have hoped for is that someone would offer the K-type brake, so that realistic formations could be produced. Three years later Revolution added the K-types to their project list. Another 3 years on and we still live in hope. For an old bloke like me, those 6 years represented 40% of my life expectancy.
I'm not grumpy, just sad...
:(
With the greatest of respect (not wishing to bring any of the previously-demonstrated bile down on my own head), I would humbly observe that the Bachmann/Farish Mk1 Pullman cars were first produced in 2007. There have been several production runs since, the most recent being in 2019.
https://www.ngauge.org.uk/bac_pass_mk1_pullmans.php
And what splendid coaches they are too. I run my rake with a maroon Mk1 BG on one end and a maroon Thompson BG on the other, which might even be prototypical. But if not, hey, Rule One applies. And they look pretty cool being hauled round the loft by KOYLI or Mallard or Scotsman, which at the proverbial end of the proverbial day is all I'm bothered about really.
PW
I have a rake of six of the Farish Met Cammell Pullmans, mine from the first batch including "Hadrian's Bar"(I am pretty sure there was a second run and that may have been 2018?) I totally agree, in spite of no close coupling mechanism they look fabulous and stand up well when compared to more recent models. A great sight behind my sound fitted Deltic, Thompson BGs are my choice of brake coach too, a bit out of place on the Great Central but then Rule 1 is your friend in such circumstances :D .
I'm sure I heard somewhere that WR Choc & Cream BGs seemed to 'get lost' if they by any chance strayed onto ER metals but were then seen on Pullman services :)
The first release of Graham Farish Pullman cars had white roofs. The most recent release had grey roofs.
I always thought that the white roofs looked a bit antiseptic so I painted mine grey (before I knew that GF were going to produce models with grey roofs).
Ian
@crewearpley40 those are southern pullmans. IIRC the Bournemouth Belle in the 1960s was mostly K type Pullmans topped and tailed with various livery BGs.
@Newportnobby was talking about ER Pullmans.
Last I heard, Revolution were not doing the 'Belle. But I wait with breath bated... and wallet still closed.
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on February 11, 2025, 08:24:08 AM@crewearpley40 those are southern pullmans. IIRC the Bournemouth Belle in the 1960s was mostly K type Pullmans topped and tailed with various livery BGs. @Newportnobby was talking about ER Pullmans.
Last I heard, Revolution were not doing the 'Belle. But I wait with breath bated... and wallet still closed.
Bob
Thanks Bob
https://www.kentrail.org.uk/bournemouth_belle.htm
Was really looking at the BG
Thanks for the history but I didn't see any photos like the Tyne Tees / ER Pullmans maybe Yorkshire etc White Rose , Queen of Scots
https://www.steve-banks.org/leeds-
west-riding/301-queen-of-scots
Was there a Hull Pullman
@crewearpley40 I sent that Kentrail link to Revolution twice, as you could make a train pretty close to the original using six K type Pullmans and two BGs.
I don't think they have bitten, but I'd like to hope they do. Otherwise I will stick with the old Farish wooden sided ones.
Maybe I can get Ross
@RBTKraisee to 3D design and print some six wheel bogies for the brake ends. Now that would be truly wonderful.
Bob
Many years ago, there was an article in the Journal about upgrading Poole Pullmans.
It involved removing the chassis, adding new truss rods and battery boxes, and using American-Atlas? - six wheeled bogies.
I may have posted this before in this thread, but I've definitely put it on the Forum before.
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on February 11, 2025, 12:20:17 PMMany years ago, there was an article in the Journal about upgrading Poole Pullmans.
It involved removing the chassis, adding new truss rods and battery boxes, and using American-Atlas? - six wheeled bogies.
I may have posted this before in this thread, but I've definitely put it on the Forum before.
Martyn
I know that six wheeled brake ends have been done before... and I've seen them for sale on EBay for silly money. At least with Ross printing them,, they would be the correct pattern bogie!
Bob
I bought the bogies and one Pullman to do a six wheeler but it ended up in SR green on four wheel bogies. I intend to get some of the K types to represent the Pullmans used on the Golden Arrow. Not strictly correct but they'll be much better than anything I could do myself. No hurry to get them though.....
Dave
Trix ? did some 12 wheel orient express pullmans, but they are like Hens teeth
Quote from: Bob G on February 11, 2025, 09:16:10 AMMaybe I can get Ross @RBTKraisee to 3D design and print some six wheel bogies for the brake ends. Now that would be truly wonderful.
I could probably do that. I'd need some dimensions, drawings, photo's and I need to see how they need to be fixed to the existing coaches. I may also need someone to loan me an example coach so I can make certain everything fits properly.
Ross.
Quote from: Bob G on February 11, 2025, 09:16:10 AM@crewearpley40 I sent that Kentrail link to Revolution twice, as you could make a train pretty close to the original using six K type Pullmans and two BGs.
I don't think they have bitten, but I'd like to hope they do. Otherwise I will stick with the old Farish wooden sided ones.
Maybe I can get Ross @RBTKraisee to 3D design and print some six wheel bogies for the brake ends. Now that would be truly wonderful.
Bob
Thanks Bob G. Knew I could rely on you. Sorry was in critical meetings and Hope that the link is useful for modellers
Chris
Quote from: Stuart Down Under on January 08, 2025, 11:46:52 PMStatus on Revolution Project List now updated to;
"Order book will open Jan 2025".
:-\
Now updated to "Order book will open Feb 2025".
:uneasy:
Hi all,
For those interested the K-type Pullmans can be pre-ordered at a discounted price now:
https://revolutiontrains.com/product-category/pre-order/ngauge/all-steel-k-type-pullmans/
We are offering a variety of sets for different regions and eras.
cheers
Ben A.
:claphappy:
now am having trouble getting my head round which are the MOST appropriate for Eastern region early 50's...
Quote from: class8mikado on February 13, 2025, 11:10:09 AM:claphappy:
now am having trouble getting my head round which are the most appropriate for Eastern region early 50's...
How about the set titled "
BR (E) ECML 1950s" for starters... :-[
The Queen of Scots sets fit as well, and also the Pair of Brakes if you want to run with other Pullman types.
QoS set A also works for the formation of the Hull portion of the Yorkshire Pullman in the mid-late 50s, so that's a probable for me, often with a Full brake (MK1 or Thompson) added Doncaster -Hull giving a nice prototypical short rake.
The prices look very reasonable when compared to coaches from other manufacturers, I had personally expected higher.
Roy
Quote from: Ben A on February 13, 2025, 10:36:15 AMHi all,
For those interested the K-type Pullmans can be pre-ordered at a discounted price now:
https://revolutiontrains.com/product-category/pre-order/ngauge/all-steel-k-type-pullmans/
We are offering a variety of sets for different regions and eras.
cheers
Ben A.
Ben,
Thanks for the heads-up on these. An embarrassment of options for modellers, I hope these do well for RevolutioN.
I'm only in for the Brake twin pack to go with the Mk1 Pullmans, but some lovely packs for others to choose from.
Best
Scott
An interesting little teaser comment here:
https://revolutiontrains.com/product/all-steel-k-type-pullmans-vsoe-triple-pack/ (https://revolutiontrains.com/product/all-steel-k-type-pullmans-vsoe-triple-pack/)
QuoteThe VSOE is made up of a several different types of Pullman – we hope to be able to offer more varieties of Pullman in future!
Neil
Quote from: PLD on February 13, 2025, 11:35:38 AMQuote from: class8mikado on February 13, 2025, 11:10:09 AM:claphappy:
now am having trouble getting my head round which are the most appropriate for Eastern region early 50's...
How about the set titled "BR (E) ECML 1950s" for starters... :-[
The Queen of Scots sets fit as well, and also the Pair of Brakes if you want to run with other Pullman types.
Not quite as simple as that, plus the pair of brakes running with met camms is not an early 50's thing.
Congratulations to Revolution! From my perspective, an excellent range of options at a very reasonable price. So for me it's a pair of brakes to top and tail 4 Mk1s, to make a perfect replica of the 1960 Master Cutler formation, plus two more brakes and a Bournemouth Belle rake. So happy, but the waiting continues, now with light at the end of the tunnel.
:beers:
See page three of this thread for some 1950s ECML formations.
Hello all ,
I am keen to order a pack of these but undecided on the most appropriate.
My layout is no particular region but tend to run BR steam (1960s).
I already own quantities of Farish Pullman's , both types!!
The later MK1s are the Umber variants with white roofs ( personal preference: I prefer white roofs!!!)
Obviously I tend to run trains as per my rules but do try to be realistic!
Can these K style pullmans be mixed and matched with the Farish Pullman's (either type) , and if so which pack would be best recommended?
Thanks in anticipation!
As I've just commented in "the other place" very pleased to see these moving closer to reality. A full "Queen of Scots" rake has been ordered: my wallet is so glad I decided to cancel my Rule 1 preorder for the Sonic car carriers in anticipation. Mind you, my Pullmans will have to be running through Alne on a rule 1 engineering works diversion from the Leeds Northern...
White/grey roofs: all the same. The railways used white lead paint that weathered grey. So you should have a mixture.
Richard
for those wishing to recreate the south wales pullman see this RMweb thead
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/94954-7016-chester-castle-south-wales-pullman-1958/page/2/
it doesn't seem to includ ay of those shown as WR/SR
Regards,
Alex
I am deliberating. I don't really "need" the Metro Cammell Mk1 Pullmans I already have for the Great Central layout I am now building and persuaded myself that going forward I would only buy locos and stock that fitted in suitably. The named expresses "Master Cutler" and "South Yorkshireman" never used Pullman stock while running via the GC as far as I have been able to research, but I am tempted to order the set containing a couple of brakes to top and tail my existing Pullman set as a "Rule 1". The Early bird discount is generous, but I may wait to see EPs before deciding, the spec certainly looks impressive on paper.
Roy
Well well
Congratulations Mike on your pet project.
Totally blown away by these. Working lighting too! Wow! Great value as said before.
Going to have to get Ross
@RBTKraisee to design the six wheeled bogies for the Poole Brake Ends that used to run with these before the BGs were in use. Although running them together will most likely show up the age difference in the designs!
Ben
@Ben A and Mike (or anyone else)- you don't happen to have a drawing of said bogie for the wooden six wheel B/ends?
Bob
Sorry I've not had chance to be on here much recently but in a few answers to queries:
- S Wales Pullman: the only all-steel K-type I found that was allocated to that service was Zena.
- Master Cutler (I don't know the route just that it ran to Sheffield): the first service definitely had a couple of all-steel K-types 68 and 70 (pre conversion to brakes ie when still Kitchen Thirds)
- I haven't noticed a drawing of a 6-wheel bogie but not something I've been particularly looking out for in this model but I'll have a look
- as noted we would definitely like to do some earlier Pullmans (12-wheelers and/or earlier K-types are probably the most logical starting points but we'd need to check that).
- the Mk1 Pullmans came in during 1961 IIRC
- white vs grey roofs: I'm inclined to agree with Richard that what people largely refer to as grey roofs was mostly aged/dirty/weathered. The exception to that seems to be the 1960s where it seems pretty convincing that repaints did have a grey roof (as well as the newer Pullman coat of arms and "simplified" lining (that all seems clear in Ford's excellent Pullman Profile book).
Cheers Mike
Quote from: red_death on February 14, 2025, 02:00:18 PM- the Mk1 Pullmans came in during 1961 IIRC
- white vs grey roofs: I'm inclined to agree with Richard that what people largely refer to as grey roofs was mostly aged/dirty/weathered. The exception to that seems to be the 1960s where it seems pretty convincing that repaints did have a grey roof (as well as the newer Pullman coat of arms and "simplified" lining (that all seems clear in Ford's excellent Pullman Profile book).
The first Mk1 Pullmans were Eagle, Falcon, Amber and Car 332, introduced into service on The Master Cutler on 28 Sep 1960. The last entered service on the Queen of Scots on 10 Apr 1961 (Ref Pullman Car Services Archive).
The Master Cutler had been running as a six-car K-type Pullman formation via the ECML since 1958. I haven't yet found a photo, but I believe it was usually all-first, apart from the brakes.
Trivia, the Cutler is unique among named trains in that it ran on three different routes to Sheffield - first on the Great Central, then the ECML and finally the Midland.
"Locomotive Hauled Mark 1 coaching stock of British Railways" (Keith Parkin, 1982) has a photo captioned that "Emerald" had been repainted dark grey as early as July 1961.
;)
The first Master Cutler was:
15 September 1958: D207 + **70,** 303, Rosamund, Sappho, Pluto, **68**
Sept 1960: **70** and **80** (it contained these but 70 was a BSP).
Cheers Mike
From my 1965 Combined Volume :D
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/149/264-150225090239-1491801213.jpeg)
Quote from: PLD on February 13, 2025, 11:35:38 AMQuote from: class8mikado on February 13, 2025, 11:10:09 AM:claphappy:
now am having trouble getting my head round which are the most appropriate for Eastern region early 50's...
How about the set titled "BR (E) ECML 1950s" for starters... :-[
The Queen of Scots sets fit as well, and also the Pair of Brakes if you want to run with other Pullman types.
This set contains three Brake cars, did such rakes ever exist with three in them ?
I cannot find any photos as such.
Quote from: ngauge66 on February 16, 2025, 12:41:05 AMThis set contains three Brake cars, did such rakes ever exist with three in them ?
I cannot find any photos as such.
As per the description "
This pack is useful for the 1950s Pullman services which were often formed of different types of Pullmans." that pack isn't a whole self contained train, it's intended to mix with other types to make up the full set. But regardless, yes there certainly were trains with three (or more) brake vehicles - trains that split/joined en-route would have at least one in each section. The Yorkshire Pullman is a prime example, with up to four (3x Pulman Brakes & a BG) in the full train.
Quote from: PLD on February 16, 2025, 01:01:21 AMQuote from: ngauge66 on February 16, 2025, 12:41:05 AMThis set contains three Brake cars, did such rakes ever exist with three in them ?
I cannot find any photos as such.
As per the description "This pack is useful for the 1950s Pullman services which were often formed of different types of Pullmans." that pack isn't a whole self contained train, it's intended to mix with other types to make up the full set. But regardless, yes there certainly were trains with three (or more) brake vehicles - trains that split/joined en-route would have at least one in each section. The Yorkshire Pullman is a prime example, with up to four (3x Pulman Brakes & a BG) in the full train.
Thank you for that confirmation, despite trawling the internet I cannot find any evidence of formations with more than two brake vehicles included.
My layout period is 1960s so it seems reasonable that I can combine this particular set with Graham Farish MK1 range of pullmans in Umber and cream and white roofs.
Quote from: red_death on February 15, 2025, 01:40:08 AMThe first Master Cutler was: 15 Sep 1958: D207 + **70,** 303, Rosamund, Sappho, Pluto, **68**
Sept 1960: **70** and **80** (it contained these but 70 was a BSP).
Cheers Mike
Thanks - that's very helpful! My only reference to the 1958 formation was in "Pullman" (Julian Morel, 1983) Which simply lists it as "Second Brake-First-First-First-First-Second Brake", with no mention of parlours or kitchens. The Cutler made one return trip per day, up in the morning and down in the evening, stopping only at Retford. In the middle of the day the set made an un-named second return trip Sheffield-London-Sheffield with additional stops at Peterborough and Grantham. From the launch it was always scheduled to be hauled by an EE Type 4 (Class 40). It was discontinued in October 1968, and had only grown by the addition of a bogie full brake - "Titled Trains of Great Britain" (Cecil J Allen, 6th edition, 1983).
:thumbsup:
1959 Yorkshire Pullman
2nd Brake (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Kitchen (Harrogate)
1st Kitchen (Harrogate)
2nd Parlour (Harrogate)
1st Parlour (Bradford Exc)
2nd Kitchen (Bradford Exc)
Mk1 BCK (Leeds)
2nd Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Parlour (Hull)
1st Kitchen (Hull)
2nd Brake (Hull)
The Yorkshire Pullman formation is rather long, but the Master Cutler (6 coaches)is ideal for a moderate size layout.
Quote from: Crepello on February 17, 2025, 03:26:47 PMThe Yorkshire Pullman formation is rather long, but the Master Cutler (6 coaches)is ideal for a moderate size layout.
True, for the full train, however think how it operated and it presents some other opportunities... Both the Hull and Harrogate portions of the YP continued to their final destinations as separate trains, so if you strategically locate the layout, offer up two even shorter options for prototypical all-Pullman formations.
The 2-coach Bradford portion got attached to another train at Leeds, so there's an opportunity for mixing Pullmans with other stock..
Quote from: PLD on February 17, 2025, 05:25:25 PMQuote from: Crepello on February 17, 2025, 03:26:47 PMThe Yorkshire Pullman formation is rather long, but the Master Cutler (6 coaches)is ideal for a moderate size layout.
True, for the full train, however think how it operated and it presents some other opportunities... Both the Hull and Harrogate portions of the YP continued to their final destinations as separate trains, so if you strategically locate the layout, offer up two even shorter options for prototypical all-Pullman formations.
The 2-coach Bradford portion got attached to another train at Leeds, so there's an opportunity for mixing Pullmans with other stock..
Good point, though most of the info i have on the Bradford is that in the other direction it was a dedicated train of 2 plus a non pullman brake
Anyway took the plunge on a queen of scots pack A...
Hoping at some point in the future that they may be available as individuals/pairs