N Gauge Forum

Everyone knows that subscribers to forums tend to post about problems they have rather than the good experiences they have with a manufacturer. What I would really like to know is what percentage of people are happy or not happy with the output from Dapol and Farish

We seem only to be able to vote in one category. Is that intentional?

Wot he said ... your poll is bust  :doh:

I'd also argue that it's pretty black & white ... no shades of grey allowed.

I'm happy with GraFar stuff (so that comes in OK) - but I'm OK I guess on Dapol - but that's not allowed.  I have to be either hating them or ecstatic ...

You are all correct!!

My intention was to give everyone the option to tick any of the boxes!!! How do I do that

Sorry for the goof!!

Bob Austin

You need to change the 'Maximum Votes per User' item in the poll setup...

Although in this case you may not get a proper distribution of Happy/Not Happy votes (ie respondents could answer 'Happy' and 'Not Happy' to the same section).

Thanks but how do I do that? I don't see any options on the poll setup

Thanks for your help

Bob Austin

I'd be interested to know why the data on Dapol is required and what you intend to do with any data collected. If the interest is purely Dapol, why even bring Farish into the equation?
Given that, on average, some folks get good 'uns and some get bad 'uns, I'm really not sure you're going to get any solid/presentable information :hmmm:
If I have concerns about Dapol, it is more to do with their customer interface/PR than anything else

Generally happy with both manufacturers locos and rolling stock.

I've had disappointing locos from both manufacturers but I'm lucky that they have been the exceptions rather than the norm.  My return rate is about the same for Dapol and Farish.  Because my main focus is BR Western Region in the early 1960s Dapol makes more locos that I "need" (Hall, Manor, Grange, Panniers, bubble cars), which is a bit of a shame as the newer loco drive coreless Graham Farish steam engines seem to run a little better (looking forward to the new Castle class).

As for diesel locos and multiple units, I can't say I've had a problem with either manufacturer.  My Dapol Western was a bit tight but it has improved a lot with running in.

The biggest problem I have with rolling stock is that NEM pockets aren't nearly as universal as I'd like.  But, conversely, the way Dapol has added NEM pockets to the Siphons has messed up the coupling distance.  I've no problem with the newer design coaches from either manufacturer, although I think the factory weathered maroon BR Mk1s in the current Farish range are a bit of a questionable choice (but I've got one so I'll probably try and build a complete weathered rake now).  I do however like the weathered wagons that Farish does.  To be fair I've also got a weathered Dapol Siphon G which looks miles better than the unweathered version; unweathered goods vehicles always look a bit too plastic to my eyes.

Hopefully that's positive enough.  There is always room for improvement but I do think we've never had it so good.

Quote from: austinbob on June 14, 2014, 09:06:46 PM
Thanks but how do I do that? I don't see any options on the poll setup

Thanks for your help

Bob Austin

Under 'Edit Poll' you'll find various options. You need to change the number of votes allowed to 8

I don't see that option.

Any more info would be appreciated

Bob Austin

Quote from: newportnobby on June 14, 2014, 09:08:19 PM
I'd be interested to know why the data on Dapol is required and what you intend to do with any data collected. If the interest is purely Dapol, why even bring Farish into the equation?
Given that, on average, some folks get good 'uns and some get bad 'uns, I'm really not sure you're going to get any solid/presentable information :hmmm:
If I have concerns about Dapol, it is more to do with their customer interface/PR than anything else

I'm just trying to work out which supplier gives the most reliable product on average. I've had bad and good experiences of both

Bob Austin

In the picture below, the red box shows the 'Maximum Votes' option. Leave it at one to give the respondents only one vote (as you have the poll set at the moment). Change it to a number greater than one to allow multiple answers.

[smg id=13194]

Having not set up a poll, I don't know whether you can change this after the poll has been set up - if you cannot see it now, then you may not be able to...

Quote from: austinbob on June 14, 2014, 09:19:16 PM
I'm just trying to work out which supplier gives the most reliable product on average. I've had bad and good experiences of both

Bob Austin

I tend to rely on my own experiences as it may only take one bad experience for a person never to buy from that company again.  One persons good loco may well be another persons nightmare  :confused1:

cheers John.

To me a poll to be meaningful shouldn't be so black and white, it is a bit like the old chestnut of "Having you stopped beating your wife yet" I think it would've been better to have some sort of rating, say on a scale of 1 to 5 or 1 to 10, gives people a little leeway to give a meaningful answer.  Just my two penny worth.

With my limited purchases and limited run time I'd say my Farish locos have been good-to-great (not great pullers, but my Life-Like locos spoil me) and the rolling stock is gorgeous, but they uncouple like mad.

Quote from: talisman56 on June 14, 2014, 09:33:37 PM
In the picture below, the red box shows the 'Maximum Votes' option. Leave it at one to give the respondents only one vote (as you have the poll set at the moment). Change it to a number greater than one to allow multiple answers.

[smg id=13194]

Having not set up a poll, I don't know whether you can change this after the poll has been set up - if you cannot see it now, then you may not be able to...

The option only appears when you set up a new poll - I'll set up a new poll tomorrow - England football match calls!!

Thanks

Bob Austin

I have bought a variety of locos over the past few years. So far I have had one dud each from Dapol, Farish and Peco so my personal feeling is that there is not much difference between them.

I should emphasize that in the case of Dapol and Farish, the faulty locos were repaired or replaced at no cost. In the case of Peco, they had no more locos in stock but repaired it free of charge and I only had to pay postage.

The trouble with this poll is that it is subjective. For every person who complains about a duff loco, there are probably dozens who has got a good one. A more fair and balanced result can be found from speaking to the larger shops who sell significant amounts of stock from both Farish and Dapol.

I did this a year or two back with a well known box shifter. Apparently the rate of returns for both Dapol and Farish are the same at about ~5%. This is roughly the same as the return rate for 00 locos. So the number appear to indicate that N gauge market is served by two manufacturers of equivalent reliability and we are no worse off than modellers in Orribly Overscale land. Of course there may be the occasional unfortunate person who has had a run of bad luck with one company or the other.

So far I have only ever had one Dapol locomotive, a Q1 brand new. Within a month it had to be replaced with a fault on the front wheels. Now the replacement has exactly the same fault. It could be my track is iffy but neither of my Farish EMU's have problems! Well that's my experience.
   ???

With all due respect, is this "poll" really necessary?  We've "been there, done that."  Not only on this forum but on others as well.  Also, these poll numbers are worthless from a statistical sense - the sample is strictly self selecting and not a random sampling.

I think a better post would be to invite people to comment about their positive experiences with both Farish and Dapol.

Just my two cents.

Matt

Agreed. Because of the design, the data generated will be dodgey at best, and as the above post states, we've been down this path before.

Agree with Matt and George.

Kind regards

Geoff

Gawd elp 'us,

Another hornets' nest !

I am sure this subject gets repeated over and over, its just a shame that neither Bachman or Dapol can not come onto any forum to give any input, But if you buy a faulty product it can be returned so there should be no problem, I shall not slag any manufacturer off as they do a fantastic job to give us models that are realistic within reason, so sorry no voting from me.

Quote from: oreamnos on June 14, 2014, 11:59:55 PM
With all due respect, is this "poll" really necessary?  We've "been there, done that."  Not only on this forum but on others as well.  Also, these poll numbers are worthless from a statistical sense - the sample is strictly self selecting and not a random sampling.

I think a better post would be to invite people to comment about their positive experiences with both Farish and Dapol.

Just my two cents.

Matt

That pretty much sums it up for me :thumbsup:

No poll necessary, if you want to know what people think about Dapol/Farish models then your time would be better spent reading the Reviews section of this forum - that IS what it's there for after all ;)


Paul

Quote from: austinbob on June 14, 2014, 08:21:41 PM
Everyone knows that subscribers to forums tend to post about problems they have rather than the good experiences they have with a manufacturer. What I would really like to know is what percentage of people are happy or not happy with the output from Dapol and Farish

It is apparent from the number of negative responses to this poll, many due to the fact that I didn't set the poll up properly, that it is probably a waste of time to continue.

Thanks to those who took the time and trouble to respond with their comments

Bob Austi

Quote from: Sprintex on June 15, 2014, 08:19:31 AM

Quote from: oreamnos on June 14, 2014, 11:59:55 PM
With all due respect, is this "poll" really necessary?  We've "been there, done that."  Not only on this forum but on others as well.  Also, these poll numbers are worthless from a statistical sense - the sample is strictly self selecting and not a random sampling.

I think a better post would be to invite people to comment about their positive experiences with both Farish and Dapol.

Just my two cents.

Matt

That pretty much sums it up for me :thumbsup:

No poll necessary, if you want to know what people think about Dapol/Farish models then your time would be better spent reading the Reviews section of this forum - that IS what it's there for after all ;)


Paul

As I said in my original post people tend to report problems rather than positive experiences in forums. So reviews may give a skewed result.

Bob Austin

It's just my opinion, but I believe we (the NGF) need to forge closer links with the major manufacturers. When Dave Jones worked for Dapol he always believed the NGF had a downer on them due to the many adverse comments levelled at their products. Hopefully, as a contributing member of this forum, he has amended his view ;)
No manufacturer should expect an easy ride from their customers when things go wrong (and they do, sometimes big style) but it is a truism that criticism is more often posted than praise, which is a shame :( Of course, they don't set out with the intention of producing a bad model but things do go wrong and I am quite surprised that, given the large membership of the NGF, Farish & Dapol do not deem it necessary to get involved in any discussion. The latest attempt by RMWeb to have a question/answer session with Dapol turned into a debacle ::) However, a counter argument to this is that Dave Jones (now DJ Models) took the time to come along to our NGF meet up in Bamber Bridge to give a very interesting talk about things past and what he is aiming for in the future.
I guess what I'm saying is we shouldn't collect a load of negativity and use it to bash folks over the head but balance it with a collection of positivity. Sadly, human nature doesn't work like that - check the number of pages in The Angry Thread v The Happy Thread :hmmm:

Quote from: newportnobby on June 15, 2014, 10:22:16 AM
I guess what I'm saying is we shouldn't collect a load of negativity and use it to bash folks over the head but balance it with a collection of positivity. Sadly, human nature doesn't work like that - check the number of pages in The Angry Thread v The Happy Thread :hmmm:

This was exactly what I was trying to get at when I started this rather badly designed poll. I see considerably more negative comments about Dapol and Farish than positive ones. I can't believe things are as bad as it appears on the surface in reading posts on this Forum. It would be really nice to get a balanced view of how good/bad manufacturers are.

Bob Austin

Quote from: austinbob on June 15, 2014, 10:34:05 AM

Quote from: newportnobby on June 15, 2014, 10:22:16 AM
I guess what I'm saying is we shouldn't collect a load of negativity and use it to bash folks over the head but balance it with a collection of positivity. Sadly, human nature doesn't work like that - check the number of pages in The Angry Thread v The Happy Thread :hmmm:

I see considerably more negative comments about Dapol and Farish than positive ones. I can't believe things are as bad as it appears on the surface in reading posts on this Forum. It would be really nice to get a balanced view of how good/bad manufacturers are.

Bob Austin

I can't fault your reasoning, Bob, but folks shout loudly when they get a 'duffer' and not too many shout as loudly when they get a good 'un - maybe because they just expect such for their hard earned money. That is why I reckon surveys don't necessarily reflect 'true life'.
Personally I make a point of reporting good/bad on any purchase as I believe it helps other forum members to make an informed decision, regardless of whether the manufacturer/supplier is looking in. Steamers, by their very complexity, seem to get more bad reviews than diesel/electric, but in our ever continuing quest for super detailed locos at a reasonable price, maybe we are asking too much of the Quality Control/Service Departments :hmmm:
I have to say I do take on board comments made on the forum before making a purchase and am pleased to report my incidence of returns is far less then the average 5% quoted above. I also take heed of reports about the shops who supply us with the goods as this has almost as much bearing on our experiences as the locos themselves.

Quote from: austinbob on June 14, 2014, 09:19:16 PM

Quote from: newportnobby on June 14, 2014, 09:08:19 PM
I'd be interested to know why the data on Dapol is required and what you intend to do with any data collected. If the interest is purely Dapol, why even bring Farish into the equation?
Given that, on average, some folks get good 'uns and some get bad 'uns, I'm really not sure you're going to get any solid/presentable information :hmmm:
If I have concerns about Dapol, it is more to do with their customer interface/PR than anything else

I'm just trying to work out which supplier gives the most reliable product on average. I've had bad and good experiences of both

Bob Austin

My answer is that Kato gives the most reliable product on average :thumbsup: - and by a long margin

Quote
My answer is that Kato gives the most reliable product on average :thumbsup: - and by a long margin

Couldn't agree more ! Just wish we could convince them to start on 1/148 scale UK stuff...

Quote from: austinbob on June 15, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
It would be really nice to get a balanced view of how good/bad manufacturers are.

But since most of us have a relatively small sample size, I doubt very many objective overviews are going to be obtained.

Suppose you assumed that Dapol make 2500 of a particular model, a reasonable sample size might be 250, 10% of them. I'd be very surprised if any of us have bought and/or extensively used 250 models of one particular kind, say Dapol Class 66s. A 5% sample would be 125 models of just one particular kind, and even a 1% sample would still be 25 models, and very, very few people are likely to have that many models of a single design of a locomotive (though you might have better luck with wagons or coaches).

So saying you have 3 Dapol 66s, 2 Dapol 22s and a Dapol 'Western' might sound like a lot, but in terms of statistical sampling its trivial. Or, as scientists would put it, "unreliable". It would be hard to tell whether your observations form a pattern or are just random noise in the data. You couldn't tell whether you were unlucky and got 3 faulty 66s in a row, or Dapol 66s of that particular design (say, early split chassis, non-DCC) was actually a poor model.

Retailers might be able to give you a more generalised overview in the sense of whether more Dapol models get returned compared to Farish ones, but determining pros and cons of a particular model will probably be beyond even a retailer's purview.

Forums do provide some sort of statistical tool in the sense that you might have 50 members here all of whom own a Dapol 66, and if polled, they might might provide you with some sort of measurement of quality and reliability. But going purely by messages or reviews could be misleading because posted comments (complaints and plaudits) are going to be more noticeable in a forum than silence from people who own the model but don't post about it because they don't have a strong opinion either way.

With all this said, I'll proffer an opinion about British N-gauge. Steam engines with valve gear and pony trucks tend to be dicey (e.g., fragile during transit/use, prone to derailing or poor running) for both manufacturers; short wheelbase 0-6-0s are better; and the more recent the diesel, the better it seems to be. Recent Bo-Bos and Co-Cos from both manufacturers do seem to be as well made on the inside as the outside. The complexity of lighting and DCC sockets has surely added a bigger risk factor compared to the older designs though -- the old Farish 'Western' might not look top-notch any more but consistently (if not invariably) runs reliably and smoothly well.

If I was looking for a diesel for example, picking between a Farish 'Deltic' and a Dapol 'Western' comes down to taste, not reliability. They're both excellent. On the other hand, the virtues of the simple but rugged Union Mills models shouldn't be overlooked if you're in the market for a steam locomotive and you're worried about derailing, quartering, bits falling off, etc.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Pengi on June 15, 2014, 12:38:10 PM

Quote from: austinbob on June 14, 2014, 09:19:16 PM

Quote from: newportnobby on June 14, 2014, 09:08:19 PM
I'd be interested to know why the data on Dapol is required and what you intend to do with any data collected. If the interest is purely Dapol, why even bring Farish into the equation?
Given that, on average, some folks get good 'uns and some get bad 'uns, I'm really not sure you're going to get any solid/presentable information :hmmm:
If I have concerns about Dapol, it is more to do with their customer interface/PR than anything else

I'm just trying to work out which supplier gives the most reliable product on average. I've had bad and good experiences of both

Bob Austin

My answer is that Kato gives the most reliable product on average :thumbsup: - and by a long margin

If only Kato had a good range of British outline steam and early diesel..........

Bob Austin

Quote from: Pengi on June 15, 2014, 12:38:10 PM
My answer is that Kato gives the most reliable product on average :thumbsup: - and by a long margin

I'm sorry, Pengi, but as your option is not within the parameters of the poll your answer is deemed invalid and disqualified  :P

But on a more serious note, as Kato do very little to interest UK modelling (as far as I can see from a quick look at their site, barring using the mechanisms to replace Dapol / GraFar mechanisms maybe) they are sadly a minority interest in an already-minority hobby  :( 

I know some people will want to jump up & down on my comment, but I am coming from the direction of UK stock, remember ...  For those where the offerings do meet their desires I do appreciate that they will be very happy  :-*

Quote from: Pengi on June 15, 2014, 12:38:10 PM
My answer is that Kato gives the most reliable product on average :thumbsup: - and by a long margin

Point of grammar, shouldn't it be a wider margin ?

Yes - I was being a bit  :offtopicsign: by a wide margin by mentionning Kato  :-[

Thank you !

Signed

Jimmy Buckfast
Professor of English
Gorbals University.

Quote from: Agrippa on June 15, 2014, 02:55:37 PM

Quote from: Pengi on June 15, 2014, 12:38:10 PM
My answer is that Kato gives the most reliable product on average :thumbsup: - and by a long margin

Point of grammar, shouldn't it be a wider margin ?

Not if you rotate it by 90 degrees.

:)

Love it DCCDave, absolutely love it!  :toot:

Quote from: NeMo on June 15, 2014, 01:07:48 PM

Quote from: austinbob on June 15, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
It would be really nice to get a balanced view of how good/bad manufacturers are.

With all this said, I'll proffer an opinion about British N-gauge. Steam engines with valve gear and pony trucks tend to be dicey (e.g., fragile during transit/use, prone to derailing or poor running) for both manufacturers; short wheelbase 0-6-0s are better; and the more recent the diesel, the better it seems to be. Recent Bo-Bos and Co-Cos from both manufacturers do seem to be as well made on the inside as the outside. The complexity of lighting and DCC sockets has surely added a bigger risk factor compared to the older designs though -- the old Farish 'Western' might not look top-notch any more but consistently (if not invariably) runs reliably and smoothly well.

If I was looking for a diesel for example, picking between a Farish 'Deltic' and a Dapol 'Western' comes down to taste, not reliability. They're both excellent. On the other hand, the virtues of the simple but rugged Union Mills models shouldn't be overlooked if you're in the market for a steam locomotive and you're worried about derailing, quartering, bits falling off, etc.

Cheers, NeMo

Hi NeMo

In my experience steam engines with valve-gear and pony-trucks are no more dicey than diesels if properly designed and manufactured. I have sufficient number of Farish steam locos to (I think) base what I say on a reasonable sample size and cross-section of models. My experience of the new coreless motor locos in particular is especially positive. I have run one of my Ivatt 2-6-0s extensively (to the point of being positively brutal) but it continues to run smoothly and reliably.

Admittedly my experience with some earlier Dapol steam locos, especially things like the M7, Ivatt Tank and 9F is less good especially in terms of track holding, but also slow running. I think this is only reinforcing my point that the design must be good and the quality of mechanism and motor up to scratch.

I do think it is a slightly skewed view that Union Mills provide a solution to good running and derailing. I do not decry their products and have a good number. However they are not perfect. In my experience back-to backs are variable and they can be very prone to derailing, especially when running tender-first.  It must also be said that the pickup footprint (especially as regards the tender side of current collection) is very short, they can and do stall on points.

On the subject of diesel I cannot disagree, mine (from both manufacturers) run very well, but again, they are not without issues, my earlier GBRF Dapol 66 "Cromer Lifeboat" has a notoriously stiff mechanism, and although not many, I have had a few split gears too.

Regards

Roy

Like most responders I think this is a near impossible survey in that nothing is quite either/or.   Generally (and I have far too much stock being an ex-collector) I would say that Farish/Bachmann mostly run well out of the box whereas Dapol often need extensive running in and even then are often indifferent performers  some good and a few bad.  A regular minor problem With Dapol is that they are noisy, have poor soldering which leeds very to failures  and have odd/imperfect current collection methods which inevitably makes poor runners. 
If you look back over their cl.66s for instance, there have been several differnt current collection methods, all with a variety of problems (most of which are resolvable by an average modeller - and I think we should all try to be modellers - but in reality should not be present on a new model requiring repair by the purchaser).   I have also experienced these problems from Bach/Far, but on a far lesser scale.   If Dapol could get their quality control up to par, they would be the best around.   As it is, any new purchase is apotential adventure in repairs.  In their favour, they do seem to be innovating and improving with every new release,   Non-powered rolling stock - no problems, it is very nice.
Sorry Dapol, you need to get things working right before you issue products.

I am somewhere in the middle as far as the pair of them go and would rather give them marks out of ten, Farish 8/10 and Dapol 6/10.

They could both do better as far as QC goes. Dapol should actually employ someone at Chirk to physically test each loco before it's sent out, I know that some faults develop after a few hours running but that would weed out some of the dead on arrivals.

Having said all that we'd all be moaning our socks off, if either one of them stopped producing N gauge.

Quote from: silly moo on June 16, 2014, 03:02:58 PM
They could both do better as far as QC goes. Dapol should actually employ someone at Chirk to physically test each loco before it's sent out, I know that some faults develop after a few hours running but that would weed out some of the dead on arrivals.

Currently no major manufacturer does this as the cost associated with manual checking is prohibitve. A typical run from Dapol is 1200 locos. To test each one for an hour in each direction is 100 days of running. How many test tracks and testers would they need to employ and how much would it cost?

Also it would not actually save them any money. As it stands, they provide a warranty so any locos that burn out just get repaired or replaced. Granted it might improve their return rate and hence their reputation but at what cost?

The only manufactuer I know of test their wares are Union Mills but they are a concern on a different scale.

I wouldn't suggest a hour of testing but even a few minutes would rule out some of the really bad ones. I realise it won't happen though, I suppose buying from a retailer who is prepared to test locos before despatch is the next best thing. And then you could argue that there are collectors who never take locos out of their boxes.

Quote from: silly moo on June 16, 2014, 03:22:14 PM
And then you could argue that there are collectors who never take locos out of their boxes.

Then they can have the duffers and we'll have any good 'uns they've got >:D

Quote from: Karhedron on June 16, 2014, 03:12:51 PM

The only manufactuer I know of test their wares are Union Mills but they are a concern on a different scale.

I think DJM has said this is part of his vision, but I don't know how big his production runs are.

Many consumer items do get run in before sent to you.  Car engines are pre run in, computers are mostly run in.

I wonder if you could do a burn in session with rolling roads?    you would get rid of the immediate fails , the gain in reputation by doing this would have an associated cost benefit over time but probably not worth doing unless running in lowered the cost associated with failed units which will be in Dapols bottom line cost calculations.

I wish these let you make several choices rather than just one, even if only one vote in each section, ie

happy with Farish locos
unhappy with Dapol locos
happy with Farish stock
happy with Dapol stock

this would surely give a more accurate idea of what each does well or badly, rather than deciding whish of the catagories is to receive your one vote.

just a thought

alan

Trying to achieve reliability through testing or quality control is just going to push up costs without solving the problem. If you want reliability it has to be designed in: Germany and Japan knew that fifty years ago.  Look at most current Dapol and Farish production: too many soldered joints, too many parts that have to be accurately hand-aligned during the assembly process. Compare to the Atlas chassis from 30 years ago under my NBL Type 2 - a child of five could put one of those together without trouble.  If you give a workforce, any workforce, a product that is easier to assemble wrong than right, you are going to get a high failure rate no matter how much time you spend on training people.

I suspect manufacturers feel under a lot of pressure to keep up a constant stream of new product releases: the move towards small batch production means they have to keep up a constant flow of new releases or end up with a big hole in their product pipeline and no money coming in. It also makes it harder to justify spending money on good quality tooling. And the demand for increased accuracy means they can no longer get away with using the same basic mechanism for half a dozen different locos like in the old Poole Farish days. So each loco chassis is a new design, and no-one has time (or the budget) to sit down and think ' right, how can we build reliability into this product at the design stage?' And if you are only making a couple of thousand of a particular model and it turns out a duffer, it isn't going to bring the company down anyway.

The problem is that none of the solutions are really acceptable.  Fewer new releases and larger batches?  Less detail, more moulded-on fittings traded for stronger mechanisms? Dimensional accuracy compromised to use existing proven chassis? No, we don't want any of these things.  I wouldn't fancy being an N gauge loco manufacturer.

I bought a Class 08 shunter new. Had to dismantle it and adjust the pick-ups before it would work properly. Why should I have to do that? If I bought a brand new car, any make for that matter, would it be acceptable for me to have to jack it up and adjust the wheels in my garage because they hadn't been put on properly, or retune the engine? Of course not.

I cannot remember who is pushing the point on here, but I agree with the poster who says send your complaints to FarBach EVEN AFTER EXPIRY OF 1 YEAR WARRANTY and explain that product is not fit for purpose and you have the law behind you in expecting the fault to be corrected at no cost to you.

All of that said, I have a lovely BachFar class 24 and 25, both beautiful runners. I guess it's the inconsistency that peevs me and ultimately outs me off buying as many new models as I otherwise would. Buying a new BachFar is a bit like sticking your hand in the Quality Street tin at Christmas time - you never quite know what you are going to get!

Personally, I'm content with the compromise of the Poole built farish diesels and locos. No they are not as detailed as the new stuff, but I sure as hell know how to fix em' and can get common parts for them and interchange bits between chassis. Very versatile from an engineering perspective.

With the new models, I feel it's just like most things in today's society: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, throw it in the bin.

And yes, the old stuff can be made to run well if you have the confidence to strip them down (ok, not as good as the new stuff, but not terrible). Oh, that and I can get three Poole locos for one new one!

I'm not saying Poole production was better in terms of quality control (I hear it wasn't), just that the durability of the design was much better in that I can swap out parts and keep the fleet running due to their common components. If I was a rivet counter, on the other hand, I'd probably be pulling my hair out by now!

My message to Bachmann: get your quality control in order.

EDITED TO REMOVE COMMENT RE: AVAILABILITY OF BACHMANN SPARES.

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 12:01:38 PM
My message to Bachmann: get your quality control in order and let people buy parts so they can fix their own locos if they want. Why is it that's grafar used to sell chassis only and spare parts, but I do not see any of this with BachFar.

I think this is unfair on Bachmann. Call their service department, and you can generally buy spares from their helpful individuals at reasonable prices. That on top of those that BR Lines and Peters Spares offer.

Best,
Alan

I too have bought spare complete bogies and other bits directly from bachmann and they have been most helpful

Ah, ok Alan, maybe I'm being a bit harsh and to be fair, I'm not an authority on BachFar models (or any other for that matter) so perhaps I should edit the post above.

But am I correct in saying that you just cannot repair the newer locos like the old ones? PCB boards to contend with, differing wheel sets and gears for each loco, motors which may, or may not be interchangeable (I'm not sure on that one).

I know it's the march of technology. Mechanics bemoan these days that cars are computers and they cannot fix them. I called the AA once, the guy came and plugged a laptop into my car!

I guess there are benefits to the march of technology and probably on balance it's what people want. It's the niches (such as me who like to fiddle around with the locos) who perhaps get left behind.

Right, going to edit the above to redress the balance a little.

Dan

Right guys

I think I was setting myself up for a grilling there and on reflection of your comments (those of you that have dealt directly with Bachmann) I have edited my post. On reflection for me to say "you cannot get spare parts" was perhaps factually incorrect. Sorry for that Bachmann.

Still, I stand by my points of quality control issues (why should one have to put up with adjusting something that should run out of the box) and also the interchangeability of spare parts (this last point isn't really a criticism, more a preference, since some prefer accuracy over interchangeability of spares - probably most actually, and I know businesses have to cater to the market).

Can I take my tin hat off now  :laugh:

The impression I get from this forum is that Farish are rather better than Dapol for reliability and service, and I wonder if Dapol, a fairly small manufacturer without a big American company behind them, are just trying to do too much, too quickly.  Constant stream of new products in three different scales, a new coupling system, working signals - slow down guys, take a bit more time to make sure things work properly and your customers will be a lot happier.

The march of technology is unstoppable, has been since the first caveman
made a clay pot. This should give better products with advanced features
at lower prices, eg tv, laptops , phones etc. Perhaps the N gauge manufacturers
are not getting the design and quality control (if any) right. Since UK N gauge
manufacturers (Except UM) depend on far eastern factories which probably
also churn out snow globes and musical birthday card chips the present situation
will probably continue especially with the constant stream of new models which are in the pipeline for long periods.

Quote from: belstone on June 17, 2014, 12:48:34 PM
The impression I get from this forum is that Farish are rather better than Dapol for reliability and service.

That is the problem with trying to gauge oppinion from a forum like this. The figures are self-selecting and a small number of problems can appear much larger than they are because the silent majority often do not post about the good locos they have bought.

As I mentioned earlier, Hattons report that the return rate for Dapol and Farish locos are pretty much identical at around 5% each. This suggests that neither is particularly better than the other.

On a personal note, I have only bought one faulty Dapol loco out of over a dozen (motor overheated). It was repaired by Dapol (through DDC Lines) in 2 weeks at no cost to me (not even postage). I certainly would not fault their service department.

Quote from: Agrippa on June 17, 2014, 01:04:07 PM
The march of technology is unstoppable, has been since the first caveman
made a clay pot. This should give better products with advanced features
at lower prices, eg tv, laptops , phones etc. Perhaps the N gauge manufacturers
are not getting the design and quality control (if any) right. Since UK N gauge
manufacturers (Except UM) depend on far eastern factories which probably
also churn out snow globes and musical birthday card chips the present situation
will probably continue especially with the constant stream of new models which are in the pipeline for long periods.

Agree with you there Agrippa with regards to the march of technology. It has, without doubt, improved the quality of our lives immensely since the caveman and if you name nearly any product today, it is superior than say, fifty years ago (I know someone is now going to come up with a long list of products which aren't  :smiley-laughing:) Also, from a price perspective, certainly in the consumer product area and "mass market" goods, it has been beneficial.

However, I would comment that this has come at the cost of durability, especially in the case of electronic goods. It used to be the case that you had things repaired. It now seems the case that you just throw it away and buy a new one - they're cheaper to produce that way. I'm not saying it's like this with model trains yet, but I feel it is going in that direction as the gubbins become more complicated and "loco specific".

Perhaps I'm drifting slightly off-topic with my points here. After all, the thread is about how bad (or good to be fair) Bachmann or Dapol are. My points are more related to my interests in servicing locos and pulling them to pieces and putting them back together again. I'm not singling out Bachmann here - it's the same across all industries, as we've just established. Kids used to play with Meccano and Lego, today it's Playstations and iPads (guilty on the iPad front myself). There doesn't seem to be an interest in inquisitive pursuits (and yes, I did grow up in the computer age myself).

So, from that perspective, Bachmann are just moving with the times like everybody else in that most products aren't designed for you to fix them yourself anymore. You might well be able to fix them, but the knowledge to do so is becoming more and more specialised. On balance, the detailing of the bodies is out of this world in comparison to the Poole built detailing so thumbs up to Bachmann there.

Perhaps if I was in charge of Bachmann I wouldn't do things any differently to them. They have positively surprised me in many ways with what they have done with Graham Farish, and like others said, we sometimes point out the negative more than the positive (I can be guilty of that just as much as the next man). My particular interest in servicing the locos is not the interest of most collectors / modellers so really, why should Bachmann cater to my specific needs when there's a larger market out there? So for that I'm not having a dig at them, I'm just commenting on my views of products today.

Lastly, and trying to bring the thread back onto topic, if there were no quality control issues then there wouldn't be so much of a need to try and fix them yourself.

"Since UK N gauge
manufacturers (Except UM) depend on far eastern factories which probably
also churn out snow globes and musical birthday card chips ... "

Now that really made me laugh! I'd love to see inside a Grafar factory in China!

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 01:27:47 PM
I'd love to see inside a Grafar factory in China!

Some snaps of the Kader (Bachmann factory) here:

http://www.railexclusive.com/index.php?category=23 (http://www.railexclusive.com/index.php?category=23)

Cheers,
Alan

Thanks Alan

Good to see those pics. Bringing it round to the QC issue, someone else said the difficulty lies in the human element when you have people assembling items (or something along those lines). Seems from the pictures that the manufacturing process (or should we say assembly process) is still largely human - I can see in one of the pictures the lady has tools, such as pliers by her side, another is screwing something down.

I guess in that context QC is going to be difficult. Or should I say, it's not the QC that is the difficulty, but the consistency in craftsmanship. QC is the reaction to, not the root cause of quality issues.

The article even mentions the human element ...

"However, these lines are not like those found in automated factories that can turn out thousands of items an hour. Model railway products have to be carefully hand-assembled, passing through various stages needed to build up each item."

Then again, think of the tooling costs to make automated production lines for such relatively small production batches. It's simply not worth it - labour is so much cheaper.

So, with that in mind, how do you tackle these QC issues? (Genuine question).

Dan

Very interesting, Alan - thanks for posting that.

"When assembled, each loco is quality inspected and given a trial run in each direction on the test track benches. Only after passing rigorous inspection can the model move to the packing area"

:hmmm:

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 02:04:57 PM
So, with that in mind, how do you tackle these QC issues? (Genuine question).

With better design.

A good example was the loss of quartering on early Dapol steam locos. This was a significant problem and people have even written articles about how to correct it. The solution was for Dapol to design squared axels and sockets on the wheels so that they could not slip out of quartering.

A solution to the problem of overheating motors is simply better specced motors. How much this would add to the cost of each loco is another question though.

Quote from: newportnobby on June 17, 2014, 02:14:54 PM
Very interesting, Alan - thanks for posting that.

"When assembled, each loco is quality inspected and given a trial run in each direction on the test track benches. Only after passing rigorous inspection can the model move to the packing area"

:hmmm:

Thanks newportnobby, I didn't get that far  :-[

Dan

That is a great link to the production process....was the third lady on the right building my preorder of intercity livery mk2f coaches ?????...i live in hope !!!

Quote from: Karhedron on June 17, 2014, 02:24:34 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 02:04:57 PM
So, with that in mind, how do you tackle these QC issues? (Genuine question).

With better design.

A good example was the loss of quartering on early Dapol steam locos. This was a significant problem and people have even written articles about how to correct it. The solution was for Dapol to design squared axels and sockets on the wheels so that they could not slip out of quartering.

A solution to the problem of overheating motors is simply better specced motors. How much this would add to the cost of each loco is another question though.

Karhedron

Good point! I was looking at it from QC issues arising during the assembly process, but you are quite right, design of the actual product is another angle to look at it from.

So, we could say there are QC issues which arise from design (both design of the product and materials used - think split gears), and also from assembly (think poor pick-ups). I'm sure there's someone on here who could write an essay on this kind of thing. Any management consultants on here?

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 02:34:48 PM
Good point! I was looking at it from QC issues arising during the assembly process, but you are quite right, design of the actual product is another angle to look at it from.

Hello,

Fair enough, design can actually help with the assembly process too. A simple example is making the parts asymetric so that they cannot be attached back-to-front or upsidedown. IIRC, a batch of tank engines were afflicted with upsidedown con rods on one occasion. Simple to fix but better to avoid in the first place.

Now that is real design clever! ;)

Quote from: Karhedron on June 17, 2014, 02:24:34 PM

A solution to the problem of overheating motors is simply better specced motors. How much this would add to the cost of each loco is another question though.

Farish are now using coreless motors on their new steam locos (which is going to cost me a new controller, as coreless motors don't like feedback controllers). Whether they are good quality motors or cheap and nasty, only time will tell. But I haven't heard of one failing yet.

One other side effect of small batch production (which possibly no-one cares about except me) is that it has pretty much killed off loco body kits. No point in designing and producing a kit to fit, say, a Farish Fairburn tank chassis: by the time you've got the kit to market the locos will be sold out and who knows when the next batch will be made?

It would be rather fun to design and make a simple but well-engineered 'generic' 0-6-0 chassis, 8' + 8'6" wheelbase with 4'9" drivers.  That near enough covers an awful lot of tank and tender engines.  Then offer a range of bodies, either cast or 3D printed. Might appeal to people who enjoy building models but don't have the time or skills to scratchbuild.  Maybe if the coupling thing works I'll look into that as the next project...

Quote from: belstone on June 17, 2014, 03:09:29 PM
One other side effect of small batch production (which possibly no-one cares about except me) is that it has pretty much killed off loco body kits. No point in designing and producing a kit to fit, say, a Farish Fairburn tank chassis: by the time you've got the kit to market the locos will be sold out and who knows when the next batch will be made?

To be fair, Farish seem committed to their designs for the long run. All of their post-Poole era steam locos have been rerun on a fairly regular basis. Sure, the Fairburn may be temporarily out of stock but it will be along again in next year's catalogue. And of course there is always that auction site. ;)

Dapol have retired a small number of models. In the case of the M7 and GWR Prairie, these designs were felt to no longer reflect the quality they aspired to. Even then, it did not stop them announcing another run of them in last year's catalogue at budget prices. The B1 has not been rerun as it lost out to the Farish version.

Quote from: belstone on June 17, 2014, 03:09:29 PM
It would be rather fun to design and make a simple but well-engineered 'generic' 0-6-0 chassis, 8' + 8'6" wheelbase with 4'9" drivers.  That near enough covers an awful lot of tank and tender engines.  Then offer a range of bodies, either cast or 3D printed. Might appeal to people who enjoy building models but don't have the time or skills to scratchbuild.  Maybe if the coupling thing works I'll look into that as the next project...

Sounds promising. My mechanical skills are not great but I am fairly happy at building and painting so dropping a new bodyshell on a working chassis would suit me.

On the 3D printer note Belstone, do you think they could be used to produce parts for farish locos. I'm thinking gears!

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 12:01:38 PM
[edit]
And yes, the old stuff can be made to run well if you have the confidence to strip them down (ok, not as good as the new stuff, but not terrible). Oh, that and I can get three Poole locos for one new one!

I'm not saying Poole production was better in terms of quality control (I hear it wasn't), just that the durability of the design was much better in that I can swap out parts and keep the fleet running due to their common components. If I was a rivet counter, on the other hand, I'd probably be pulling my hair out by now!
[edit]

Poole stuff was - like Bachmann and Dapol now - a mixed bag on the QC front.  You could have two identical locos and one might run great and the other not well at all.  Also, paint and decoration application could be variable, but always much simplified compared to today's liveries.

That said, I agree 100% that the one thing Poole stuff really had going for it was you could strip an entire model completlely down into its component parts very easily and they went back together much the same.  So you really could make a model run better by yourself just by tinkering with it and I found that immensely satisfying.  Maybe some people can still do that with the current crop of new models but my advancing age and the finer and more fragile detail have put that beyond my skills.  Even getting the body shells off some of the new diesels is now a challenge for me the way they fit so tightly to chassis nowadays!

Because the latest stuff looks so much better than the old I really don't bring out my old Poole models anymore to run.  The decoration on even the early Bachmann split-chassis models is so much better than the Poole stuff - and it runs better, too - that even though the split chassis locos generally use the same Poole body shells (aside from the Peaks which aren't Poole), I run those models instead.  It doesn't hurt I still can also strip down the split chassis mechanisms.

I still run my split chassis BachFar models (e.g. 40s, 50s, and 55s) on my club's modular layout at exibitions but I do so somewhat self-conciously.  I'm the only British outline modeller in the club; everyone else runs US outline and frankly all their Atlas and Kato stock makes the split-chassis stuff look like it crawled out from under a rock (the Peaks perhaps excepted).  At the last show I actually ended up running an Ixion Manor, a Farish Peak, a Farish Warship, a Dapol Western, a Farish DP1, and a Dapol blue/grey HST set simply because I felt those locos could still hold a candle to the superb looking US and Continental models my club-mates were running!

I return for exchange about 30% or more of the loco models I receive regardless of who was the manufacturer.  I don't think I'm particularly fussy, either.  Am I diappointed when I have to do that?  You bet.  The flip side of that of course is the elation I have when I recieve a model that is correct in all respects!

Matt

Hi Matt, a good (and fair) summary IMHO. Probably better than I managed to articulate it.

Good to see that you're flying the flag for British N in the USA!  :thumbsup:

Now, if on,y there WAS a model railway club out here! More chance of snow falling in these parts methinks ... or even rain for that matter!

Dan

Quote from: Karhedron on June 17, 2014, 02:39:07 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 02:34:48 PM
Good point! I was looking at it from QC issues arising during the assembly process, but you are quite right, design of the actual product is another angle to look at it from.

Hello,

Fair enough, design can actually help with the assembly process too. A simple example is making the parts asymetric so that they cannot be attached back-to-front or upsidedown. IIRC, a batch of tank engines were afflicted with upsidedown con rods on one occasion. Simple to fix but better to avoid in the first place.

Now that is real design clever! ;)

I agree, but even when parts are designed in such a way to only go together one way they can still be put together wrong.  The original release of the Farish 3MT tank included quite a few locos where the dome was glued on backwards - see: http://www.ehattons.com/52824/Graham_Farish_372_328_Standard_Class_3MT_2_6_2_Tank_82026_BR_lined_black_with_early_emblem/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/52824/Graham_Farish_372_328_Standard_Class_3MT_2_6_2_Tank_82026_BR_lined_black_with_early_emblem/StockDetail.aspx)

I bought one of these locos pre-owned from Hattons at a big discount and it had the backwards dome.  When I punched it off so that I could put in on the right way (not as easy as it sounds since it was glued on quite strongly!) it was obvious the underside of the dome had a key intentionallly moulded onto it so that it could fit only one way onto the top of the boiler.  So even though it had been designed to aid in correct assembly, the design didn't work.

I think you have to couple good design with educating the assemblers so that they understand how the finished product should look.  A single photograph stuck on the wall of the assemly room could go a long way in correcting assembly errors.

Matt

Many years ago I instigated a change in a sales team, so that instead of earning commission on the selling price of a job they earned commission on the profit for a job. This had the effect of immediately stopping them selling complex jobs at knock down prices.

Perhaps a similar method should be used to reward assemblers of these locos. If they were paid on a scale which reduced as the percentage of failures increased then they may be more minded to assemble the models correctly. I suppose though, that they get paid peanuts and the cost of implementing such a change would be too great. I can't see where their incentive to get it right comes from.

Cheers
Dave

Spot on Dave. Peanuts it most probably is! Reminds me of a funny story I was thinking about earlier when my dad came out to the Middle East to visit.

There was some construction going on nearby at a T-junction (nothing new there in these parts!) and 24/7 there would be a worker either side of the road with a piece of rope in his hand, which would be lowered and raised to signify right of way to traffic. So, for a T-junction that is six chaps, 24 hours a day.

Dad: why don't they get a portable traffic light to do that job?
Me: Dad, that would cost more money!

My dad was only here for three weeks ... it went on for more like three months!

Draw your own conclusions on the cost of labour in certain parts of the world!

So why does the dome on a 3MT need to be moulded as a separate item anyway?

Quote from: belstone on June 17, 2014, 10:43:20 PM
So why does the dome on a 3MT need to be moulded as a separate item anyway?

I don't know enough about the prototype to answer.  I am hoping someone else does and responds.

Pure speculation, but my guess is that there was some variation in the domes on the prototype and Farish therefore tried to build some flexibilty into the design so that it could model those variations.

Matt

Quote from: belstone on June 17, 2014, 03:09:29 PM

Quote from: Karhedron on June 17, 2014, 02:24:34 PM

A solution to the problem of overheating motors is simply better specced motors. How much this would add to the cost of each loco is another question though.

Farish are now using coreless motors on their new steam locos (which is going to cost me a new controller, as coreless motors don't like feedback controllers). Whether they are good quality motors or cheap and nasty, only time will tell. But I haven't heard of one failing yet.

One other side effect of small batch production (which possibly no-one cares about except me) is that it has pretty much killed off loco body kits. No point in designing and producing a kit to fit, say, a Farish Fairburn tank chassis: by the time you've got the kit to market the locos will be sold out and who knows when the next batch will be made?

It would be rather fun to design and make a simple but well-engineered 'generic' 0-6-0 chassis, 8' + 8'6" wheelbase with 4'9" drivers.  That near enough covers an awful lot of tank and tender engines.  Then offer a range of bodies, either cast or 3D printed. Might appeal to people who enjoy building models but don't have the time or skills to scratchbuild.  Maybe if the coupling thing works I'll look into that as the next project...

Hi Belstone

Although I am not unhappy that it is happening in most ways, I have often thought that the loss of "generic" old style Farish chassis will in time kill the loco kit market in British N so an enterprise such as you are suggesting has a lot of merit in my view.

I guess what will make or break such a project would be (1) supply of components and (2) cost.

If a chassis kit is proposed, how would it be constructed? (Etch, cast, combination or other for chassis block - poss 3D prints?) and where could suitable wheels be sourced from - this appears always to have been a big stumbling block to the idea previously on cost grounds.

I look forward to seeing more on this in due course, and would such a product interest me? In a word yes!

Regards

Roy

Quote from: DCCDave on June 17, 2014, 09:46:15 PM
Perhaps a similar method should be used to reward assemblers of these locos. If they were paid on a scale which reduced as the percentage of failures increased then they may be more minded to assemble the models correctly. I suppose though, that they get paid peanuts and the cost of implementing such a change would be too great. I can't see where their incentive to get it right comes from.

That would simply cost us more - they'd have to initiate some for of tracing who did what on each loco so blame could be assigned - a lot more administration and therefore cost I'd have thought.

Better to design out the ability to construct things wrongly as much as possible. But errors will always happen - we're only human, right  ;)

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 09:19:23 AM
Better to design out the ability to construct things wrongly as much as possible. But errors will always happen - we're only human, right  ;)

Well, most of us. ;)

You are right though. The real potential of "design clever" is not so much make things cheaper as to make things better and more reliable without necessarily increasing costs. The evolution of design of Dapol's steam locos over the last 5 years shows this principle in progress although I think there is still a way to go.

in 2010, most of the complaints about steam locos focussed on things like wheels losing quartering or valve gear jamming. I have not heard these complaints since Dapol introduced squared axels or Farish went back to loco drive. This shows things are getting better. Complaints now seem to focus on electrics with either soldering problems or motor overheating being the main problems.

Motors are bought in so I suspect Dapol need to look at their supply chain in this regard. I am not sure what the solution to soldering issues is. I have not heard any complaints about the new coreless motors Farish are using so the future may lie in that direction.

What were the coloured dots / blobs on Poole chassis for? Were they to denote the "builder", or was it to denote the QC checker?

A lot of my paint dots / blobs are disappearing, since when I service the loco and bathe the chassis, or wipe it down with IPA, it tends to come off. Oh yes, I only bathe it after stripping it down, not the everything still attached to it!

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 02:34:48 PM

Quote from: Karhedron on June 17, 2014, 02:24:34 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 17, 2014, 02:04:57 PM
So, with that in mind, how do you tackle these QC issues? (Genuine question).

With better design.

A good example was the loss of quartering on early Dapol steam locos. This was a significant problem and people have even written articles about how to correct it. The solution was for Dapol to design squared axels and sockets on the wheels so that they could not slip out of quartering.

A solution to the problem of overheating motors is simply better specced motors. How much this would add to the cost of each loco is another question though.

Karhedron

Good point! I was looking at it from QC issues arising during the assembly process, but you are quite right, design of the actual product is another angle to look at it from.

So, we could say there are QC issues which arise from design (both design of the product and materials used - think split gears), and also from assembly (think poor pick-ups). I'm sure there's someone on here who could write an essay on this kind of thing. Any management consultants on here?

Dan

OK Dan
You asked for an essay so here it is!!!

I was a Quality Management consultant for many years and also a Quality Manager in an electro-mechanical design and production environment.
A number of people on here have made some very good points on QC, design, production etc. Here is my take on all this.

The aim of any manufacturer is (or should be) to provide products which are fit for purpose and reliable. It is not acceptable for any product not to work to specification out of the box.
In order to achieve products which are fit for purpose there a number of critical steps in the design, production and Quality Assurance processes (this does NOT mean Quality control).

The Design Process
This is absolutely critical in ensuring the product is fit for purpose. Systems should be in place to ensure that the correct design is produced. This includes: Designing to a defined specification; Designing for reliability; Designing for serviceability (if this is part of the specification); Selecting suitable components; Designing for easy, consistent and fault free production; Designing to a product cost; Designing to minimise inspection and test requirements at all stages of production; Providing suitable assembly instructions, test instructions (if required) and assembly aids (jigs and fixtures etc.)

The Production Process
The production process ensures that the product is assembled as per the requirements of the design output above. Also the production staff must be suitably trained to do the work. There should be a system for logging problems, faults etc. during production so that suitable action can be taken to prevent faulty products being shipped. For example; feeding back information to design department for design changes, carrying out additional inspection and test. inspection and test costs cash so problems should be resolved as quickly as possible.

Quality Assurance and Quality Control
There has been a lot of talk about Quality Control issues in this thread but no mention of Quality Assurance. Quality assurance is about making sure that the design and production systems and procedures ensure that the product will be produced right first time without any unnecessary inspection or test. Quality Control is about checking things are correct after they have been done to check for faults.

Quality Assurance focuses on preventing problems occurring – it costs money to do this.

Quality Control focuses on finding and fixing problems after they have occurred – in general it costs much more money to do this. Just think about the scrapped assemblies and finished products. Think about the extra test, inspection and re-work in the factory. Think about the cost of warranty returns - repairs, more scrap, more time, more effort. I get the feeling sometimes that the Manufacturers do not look to fixing problems but rely on the Customer to find them!

I am sure there must be room for Dapol, Farish and others to look further at their systems in order to make sure the products 'do what they say on the box' without increasing costs substantially.
In any event I would rather pay a little bit more knowing my new loco is definitely going to work properly than constantly have to return locos for repair or replacement or to suffer little niggles about pickups not working, motor noise and other problems.

RANT OVER

Bob Austin

Excellent post, IMHO, Bob! Didn't really see it as a rant, but rather a well informed perspective on the issue from someone who has a better idea than most of us.

Perhaps you should send something similar to the manufacturers, stating your qualifications. What you say makes complete sense to me, but of course I know these things are not necessarily as simple as they seem on paper. That said, am I correct in thinking that Kato (Japanese stock) is on another planed quality wise?

I'm going to venture into Kato track I think, just to set up a tail-chaser loop around some wall skirting / shelving. I might even venture into buying a Kato model (one of those suburban passenger train thingys), just to see how good they are.

Anyway, thread drift ... excellent take on the issue Bob!

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 11:04:42 AM
Excellent post, IMHO, Bob! Didn't really see it as a rant, but rather a well informed perspective on the issue from someone who has a better idea than most of us.

Perhaps you should send something similar to the manufacturers, stating your qualifications. What you say makes complete sense to me, but of course I know these things are not necessarily as simple as they seem on paper. That said, am I correct in thinking that Kato (Japanese stock) is on another planed quality wise?

I'm going to venture into Kato track I think, just to set up a tail-chaser loop around some wall skirting / shelving. I might even venture into buying a Kato model (one of those suburban passenger train thingys), just to see how good they are.

Anyway, thread drift ... excellent take on the issue Bob!

Dan

Hi Dan

I might just do what you suggest. Do you think Dapol and Farish would take any notice. I think a number of Forum members have contacted them at various times, often without even the courtesy of a reply.

I don't have any personal experience of Kato and I don't really follow posts about Kato in general. However it does seem that they get very few bad posts and a lot of rave reviews.

Bob Austin

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 10:52:20 AM
Quality Assurance focuses on preventing problems occurring – it costs money to do this.
...
I get the feeling sometimes that the Manufacturers do not look to fixing problems but rely on the Customer to find them!

I think you are right on both points. If the 5% figure I quoted earlier is accurate they may have calculated that it is cheaper to over-order by 5% and simply replace the duds than to engage in systematic quality improvement.

Of course this fails to take into account intangibles such as customer satisfaction and manufacturer reputation.

Quote from: Karhedron on June 18, 2014, 11:16:22 AM

Of course this fails to take into account intangibles such as customer satisfaction and manufacturer reputation.

Interesting point Karhedron

I wonder if the Manufacturers ever do customer satisfaction surveys or even retailer satisfaction surveys? I wonder if they would take any action as a result of such surveys?

Bob Austin

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 09:13:25 AM

If a chassis kit is proposed, how would it be constructed? (Etch, cast, combination or other for chassis block - poss 3D prints?) and where could suitable wheels be sourced from - this appears always to have been a big stumbling block to the idea previously on cost grounds.

I look forward to seeing more on this in due course, and would such a product interest me? In a word yes!

Regards

Roy

Thought you might be interested, Roy.  At the moment I'm just at the 'imagining' stage, but my thinking so far is:

Etched side frames with a 3D printed spacer block between them, locating pegs on the block to keep it all square.

Small 5 pole motor, with 2 stage gearing. The tricky bit here is to come up with a motor installation that won't poke out into the cab on 0-6-0 tender engines. Ideally I want the motor in the firebox to leave plenty of room to add weight in the boiler. And if the worm gear isn't visible under the boiler (unlike the Farish chassis), even better.  I can't find a 12V motor small enough to mount between the frames - maybe a worm on a vertical shaft in front of the centre axle, driven off a 90 degree bevel gear? Endfloat would have to be controlled very accurately.

Wheels. Ah, wheels. The biggest single stumbling block for anyone thinking of doing something like this. No question of having them made, the cost and quality issues would be horrendous. The only possible solution would be go to an RTR manufacturer that doesn't change its chassis designs every ten minutes and has a good spares service, perhaps Fleischmann. 

Chassis would have to be supplied ready-assembled due to the need to set wheel quartering and back to back accurately. Dead easy with a purpose-made tool, very tricky indeed for the home assembler.

Pickups - I have a plan for this that is so cunning I'm surprised no-one has done it before. That might be because it won't work, but I don't see why not at the moment.

I had a quick flick through Mike Sharman's 'Wheel Standards for the Modeller' last night and there must be at least a hundred 0-6-0s and 0-6-2s that have wheels between 4'6" and 5'0", and I reckon most of them have a wheelbase around 16 - 17 feet.  Question is what wheelbase and spacing would suit the greatest number of applications. Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

I can't see myself getting round to this one for a while - I'm struggling to work out how to do the artwork for the coupling etches at the moment. But maybe one day...

Quote from: Karhedron on June 18, 2014, 11:16:22 AM
If the 5% figure I quoted earlier is accurate they may have calculated that it is cheaper to over-order by 5% and simply replace the duds than to engage in systematic quality improvement

I don't know if this is true for Dapol, but Bachmann used to simply do production runs of 1008. Presumably some expected failures were built into this number however.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 09:31:51 AM
What were the coloured dots / blobs on Poole chassis for? Were they to denote the "builder", or was it to denote the QC checker?

I don't think they were, I've read somewhere why this was, but can't recall.

All Farish Poole models were test run before leaving the factory I believe. This presumably must have weeded out the absolute worst examples. Though I'm sure plenty of imperfect models must have also got through and made it into the wild. I know though that the few Poole models I bought brand new when they were still being produced ran correctly from the box. Admittedly quite a few soon got split gears, but when leaving the factory they were certainly fine.

This kind of testing of each individual model certainly doesn't happen nowadays.

Cheers,
Alan

 Bob

They might just take some notice with your background, but we wouldn't know unless you write to them I guess. It's not really for me to push, as I don't really buy much new stuff, so only you guys who buy it know if such a letter is warranted.

I would put forward the points, backed up by your industry experience, building in your personal experiences (and maybe those of others). I would keep it factual and objective - remember we talked about "one person being happy doesn't mean another person is happy with the same product" - but things like locos not working properly out if the box are pretty objective, or "black and white" in my view.

Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 11:34:47 AM
Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Personally, I can't help think Bachmann (and others no doubt) must be bored of customers telling them how to run their business. Sure, there may be good ideas, but I suspect there's a lot we don't know about the industry, and they do.

We should also consider how much in the way of improvements there have been over the years - and whilst there's still room for improvement, N has seen a complete revolution in the models available!

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 11:40:21 AM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 11:34:47 AM
Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Personally, I can't help think Bachmann (and others no doubt) must be bored of customers telling them how to run their business. Sure, there may be good ideas, but I suspect there's a lot we don't know about the industry, and they do.

We should also consider how much in the way of improvements there have been over the years - and whilst there's still room for improvement, N has seen a complete revolution in the models available!

Cheers,
Alan

Alan on reflection I think you are probably right about trying to tell Manufacturers how to run their affairs and I won't be writing to them.

However, even if there have been improvements in N gauge over the years it does not alter the notion that when you buy a new product it should work properly. No ifs or buts.. it should just work.

If you bought a new television and the sound had a hum in the background you wouldn't accept it. If you bought a toaster and it stopped toasting after the first slice you wouldn't accept it. You send the stuff back for replacement or money back and may not use the same suppliers again.

So why are we so forgiving about N gauge locos? Many people cannot or don't want to fiddle around with something to get it to work properly - and why should they have to. Bear in mind that if you do fiddle around with stuff then you are invalidating the warranty. So, even if you have the technical ability to dismantle and reassemble locos you are risking the outcome of having a piece of junk if your efforts are unsuccessful.

Bob Austin

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
However, even if there have been improvements in N gauge over the years it does not alter the notion that when you buy a new product it should work properly. No ifs or buts.. it should just work.

I totally agree with this. Mechanically these are very very simple so there shouldn't be so many issues.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
If you bought a new television and the sound had a hum in the background you wouldn't accept it. If you bought a toaster and it stopped toasting after the first slice you wouldn't accept it. You send the stuff back for replacement or money back and may not use the same suppliers again.

Yes, this is true. Where our market differs is that it is so small by comparison. The companies in question probably only actually have one or two designers, one or two folk actually doing the research etc. Also since the runs are so small (and often of unique liveries) it can be the case that you simply can't keep sending back for replacement as you might be unable to get a replacement once stocks are depleted.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
So why are we so forgiving about N gauge locos? Many people cannot or don't want to fiddle around with something to get it to work properly - and why should they have to. Bear in mind that if you do fiddle around with stuff then you are invalidating the warranty. So, even if you have the technical ability to dismantle and reassemble locos you are risking the outcome of having a piece of junk if your efforts are unsuccessful.

I think there are a few reasons for this:

- this is the kind of people we are - builders/modellers etc. Whilst many don't like stripping down models, many really do and actually enjoy taking an iffy model and getting it running perfectly. I know I do. For me I also find it far more efficient than sending back only to potentially receive a model with similar issues. I know that's probably a very minority stance as I've built up many years experience (and hence confidence) in tearing things down.
- the above reason for availability
- beyond the cases of models that don't work right, there is the case of tuning up models that do work and improving their performance above everyone elses stock model.

Personally I don't advocate my approach to others - it works for me, but generally for those who don't have confidence or knowhow to fettle locos the right course is to send them back or to the authorised repairer.

Best,
Alan

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 11:26:26 AM
[Thought you might be interested, Roy.  At the moment I'm just at the 'imagining' stage, but my thinking so far is:

Etched side frames with a 3D printed spacer block between them, locating pegs on the block to keep it all square.

Small 5 pole motor, with 2 stage gearing. The tricky bit here is to come up with a motor installation that won't poke out into the cab on 0-6-0 tender engines. Ideally I want the motor in the firebox to leave plenty of room to add weight in the boiler. And if the worm gear isn't visible under the boiler (unlike the Farish chassis), even better.  I can't find a 12V motor small enough to mount between the frames - maybe a worm on a vertical shaft in front of the centre axle, driven off a 90 degree bevel gear? Endfloat would have to be controlled very accurately.

Wheels. Ah, wheels. The biggest single stumbling block for anyone thinking of doing something like this. No question of having them made, the cost and quality issues would be horrendous. The only possible solution would be go to an RTR manufacturer that doesn't change its chassis designs every ten minutes and has a good spares service, perhaps Fleischmann. 

Chassis would have to be supplied ready-assembled due to the need to set wheel quartering and back to back accurately. Dead easy with a purpose-made tool, very tricky indeed for the home assembler.

Pickups - I have a plan for this that is so cunning I'm surprised no-one has done it before. That might be because it won't work, but I don't see why not at the moment.

I had a quick flick through Mike Sharman's 'Wheel Standards for the Modeller' last night and there must be at least a hundred 0-6-0s and 0-6-2s that have wheels between 4'6" and 5'0", and I reckon most of them have a wheelbase around 16 - 17 feet.  Question is what wheelbase and spacing would suit the greatest number of applications. Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

I can't see myself getting round to this one for a while - I'm struggling to work out how to do the artwork for the coupling etches at the moment. But maybe one day...

Depending on what people want and indeed what choices are out there, if people do not mind solid backed wheels would it be worth asking Colin Heard of Union Mills where he sources his from? We are told everything on his locos is UK sourced apart from the motor.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 11:40:21 AM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 11:34:47 AM
Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Personally, I can't help think Bachmann (and others no doubt) must be bored of customers telling them how to run their business. Sure, there may be good ideas, but I suspect there's a lot we don't know about the industry, and they do.

You may well be right there Alan, both in terms of whether/if they listen to customers, and also about what we don't know about the industry.

That said, if it's true, then I wouldn't be surprised to see them go the way of the Dodo. That goes for any business, not just model train makers.

On another thread we're talking about Karhedron's issue with his new Dapol. I'm flabbergasted with some of the "out of the box issues" I read on here. A business should always listen to its customers, no matter whether it thinks they are right or not.

Someone made a good point on here (or was it another thread) about these not being cottage industries but profit making organizations. Models are made to make profit, and as a customer I feel I am entitled to either be happy with my product, or spend my money on another hobby or another manufacturer. If the manufacturers don't understand that then the customers will dry up. Plenty of examples of that across all industries.

That said, Bachmann have made great strides with the detailing, which I know a lot of people on here say they are happy with. Also, I think the motion is smoother, it's just that you have to tinker with it yourself first, possibly invalidating your warranty. Either that or having the inconvenience of returning it.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 11:26:26 AM


Chassis would have to be supplied ready-assembled due to the need to set wheel quartering and back to back accurately. Dead easy with a purpose-made tool, very tricky indeed for the home assembler.


Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

I can't see myself getting round to this one for a while - I'm struggling to work out how to do the artwork for the coupling etches at the moment. But maybe one day...

I look forward to that day!

Personally, I think initially basing a new chassis around the Farish 94xx's one dimensionally (including fixing lugs etc) would make sense as it would refresh the viability of a number of existing kits from BHE, Langley etc. That said incorporating a lower motor would make it even more versatile.

I can't help thinking that if supply is reliable and issues such as traction weight can be overcome, it also opens up the even more exciting prospect of a new generation of 3D printed kits/models from the likes of our Very own member Steve (Atso-Cad) as well as others.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 01:15:08 PM

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
However, even if there have been improvements in N gauge over the years it does not alter the notion that when you buy a new product it should work properly. No ifs or buts.. it should just work.

I totally agree with this. Mechanically these are very very simple so there shouldn't be so many issues.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
If you bought a new television and the sound had a hum in the background you wouldn't accept it. If you bought a toaster and it stopped toasting after the first slice you wouldn't accept it. You send the stuff back for replacement or money back and may not use the same suppliers again.

Yes, this is true. Where our market differs is that it is so small by comparison. The companies in question probably only actually have one or two designers, one or two folk actually doing the research etc. Also since the runs are so small (and often of unique liveries) it can be the case that you simply can't keep sending back for replacement as you might be unable to get a replacement once stocks are depleted.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
So why are we so forgiving about N gauge locos? Many people cannot or don't want to fiddle around with something to get it to work properly - and why should they have to. Bear in mind that if you do fiddle around with stuff then you are invalidating the warranty. So, even if you have the technical ability to dismantle and reassemble locos you are risking the outcome of having a piece of junk if your efforts are unsuccessful.

I think there are a few reasons for this:

- this is the kind of people we are - builders/modellers etc. Whilst many don't like stripping down models, many really do and actually enjoy taking an iffy model and getting it running perfectly. I know I do. For me I also find it far more efficient than sending back only to potentially receive a model with similar issues. I know that's probably a very minority stance as I've built up many years experience (and hence confidence) in tearing things down.
- the above reason for availability
- beyond the cases of models that don't work right, there is the case of tuning up models that do work and improving their performance above everyone elses stock model.

Personally I don't advocate my approach to others - it works for me, but generally for those who don't have confidence or knowhow to fettle locos the right course is to send them back or to the authorised repairer.

Best,
Alan

I think you summed us up quite well there Alan. We're probably quite forgiving (and sentimental) when it comes to our hobby - much more so than we would be if we were buying a "boring consumer good" for the house.

I think we've explored quite a bit here (apologies if it's all be said before - which I'm sure it has!)

I haven't got much else to say from my viewpoint unless, that is, there's something someone says that I haven't thought about.

Good discussion though!

Dan

On another note, and the direction in which this thread seems to be heading, would be quite interested to follow the discussion on this "kit idea". Could this be "NGF Models" in the making?

Considering how relatively small Bachmann/Dapol are, I can't help thinking about some of the electrical giants who made such a pig's ear of recalling dishwashers capable of burning your house down around your ears :o
Kinda puts things into perspective :hmmm:

Or the cars that get stuck in "accelerate" whilst you're driving down the motorway. Yup, there's some real shockers out there.

I'm not anti-Farish / Dapol, far from it. I just think it's healthy to have a degree of criticism (not cynicism), especially when it's warranted.

Things have gotten a lot better for the core customer - long May that continue as it will lead to a healthy n gauge scene. The worst case scenario would be that n gauge becomes even more niche, but if don't feel that is happening.

Dan

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 02:56:06 PM
Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

Personally, I think initially basing a new chassis around the Farish 94xx's one dimensionally (including fixing lugs etc) would make sense as it would refresh the viability of a number of existing kits from BHE, Langley etc. That said incorporating a lower motor would make it even more versatile.

If there's real need for this could Bachmann not simply be commissioned to do a run of them?

Bear in mind also that this chassis is still in production under the plastic bodied GP tank done in their base train sets...there are plenty of these about new and second hand.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 03:40:13 PM
I'm not anti-Farish / Dapol, far from it. I just think it's healthy to have a degree of criticism (not cynicism), especially when it's warranted.

"Constructive criticism" I think I'd add....  :D

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 04:00:13 PM

If there's real need for this could Bachmann not simply be commissioned to do a run of them?

Bear in mind also that this chassis is still in production under the plastic bodied GP tank done in their base train sets...there are plenty of these about new and second hand.

Cheers,
Alan

Not DCC compatible, around 20:1 gearing, huge motor, scale 200mph top speed and the keeper plate on the bottom so thick it almost touches the rails... I'm oot.

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
Not DCC compatible

Digihats for dead easy conversion...

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
, around 20:1 gearing, huge motor,

25:1 actually, and the running is actually very good in general - the slow speed can beat some more modern designs.

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
the keeper plate on the bottom so thick it almost touches the rails... I'm oot.

A matter of personal opinion, but can easily be replaced by NGS keeper plate instead....

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 04:01:46 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 03:40:13 PM
I'm not anti-Farish / Dapol, far from it. I just think it's healthy to have a degree of criticism (not cynicism), especially when it's warranted.

"Constructive criticism" I think I'd add....  :D

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan

Just checked the Bachmann website.

That set is no longer showing as current and in fact I do not think it has been made for some time.

None of the currently listed steam locos continue to use the old chassis either.

If the tooling still exists it is possible they may do a batch I guess, after all money is money, but minimum order quantity for any of their stuff is no less than 504 units.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 04:00:13 PM

If there's real need for this could Bachmann not simply be commissioned to do a run of them?

Bear in mind also that this chassis is still in production under the plastic bodied GP tank done in their base train sets...there are plenty of these about new and second hand.

Cheers,
Alan

Not DCC compatible, around 20:1 gearing, huge motor, scale 200mph top speed and the keeper plate on the bottom so thick it almost touches the rails... I'm oot.

Belstone

Is that an "I'm oot" like Duncan bannatyne in Dragon's Den?  :bounce:

Now you've got me thinking - we could do a model railway version! We could have Dr Al, Newport Nobby and, hmmm, you pick the other one, sitting in their comfy chairs with wads of cash and the likes of you and I coming in and saying ... "I propose ..."

Could you imagine - the response to mine (with a heavy Scottish accent or twerky Deborah Meaden would be "I'm sorry, there's no market for your stephenson's Rocket, you're prices are way out, and frankly, your quality control is cr*p!"  :laugh:

Sorry ... I have my moments!

Dan

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
That set is no longer showing as current and in fact I do not think it has been made for some time.

None of the currently listed steam locos continue to use the old chassis either.

I'd be surprised if it doesn't surface again in another rerun of the cheap sets - sure there's been at least 2 runs of that style set as well as a good number of runs of the 94xx.

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
If the tooling still exists it is possible they may do a batch I guess, after all money is money, but minimum order quantity for any of their stuff is no less than 504 units.

This is the kind of thing the NGS should be looking at keeping an eye on, and championing any cause to keep the kits able to be built - there are now a lot of kit locos out there that require chassis that can't actually be bought. The 0-6-0 is actually easier than some as there are still a lot of them about secondhand under many different bodies. Garratts are more of an issue for example, given they need 2 black 5 chassis.

A lot of these kits may end up non-viable if no source of chassis is forthcoming.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 05:57:24 PM

A lot of these kits may end up non-viable if no source of chassis is forthcoming.

Cheers,
Alan

If we're honest some of those old kits were a bit rubbish - oversized to fit the big motor and deep flanges, badly cast and in the worst cases little more than a scratchbuilding aid.  As Roy says, there's a lot of potential in 3D printing - especially with larger tank engines where there is plenty of room for lead weights in the side tanks. You could even look at mixed materials - something like an an 0-6-0 tender engine with whitemetal boiler and footplate for weight, 3D printed firebox, cab and tender for fine detail.  But without a consistently available mechanism built to modern standards its hard to see why anyone would take the risk of developing such a thing.  Back in the Poole days Farish sold loco chassis as a permanent part of their range, but then they only had about half a dozen different designs anyway.

I love Dan's idea of an N gauge 'Dragon's Den'.  I'm always coming up with ideas that I don't have the time or money to do anything with. Perhaps we could get Pete Waterman in on it :)

I seem to have rambled a long way from the original thread topic - I offer my apologies.

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 05:28:39 PM
We could have Dr Al, Newport Nobby and, hmmm, you pick the other one, sitting in their comfy chairs with wads of cash and the likes of you and I coming in and saying ... "I propose ..."

Could you imagine - the response to mine (with a heavy Scottish accent or twerky Deborah Meaden would be "I'm sorry, there's no market for your stephenson's Rocket, you're prices are way out, and frankly, your quality control is cr*p!"  :laugh:

Sorry ... I have my moments!

Dan

Not sure I should be placed in the same exalted company as Dr Al :no:
Rather than design/produce crap, I just post it on the NGF :-[

Hi Belstone

Please do not apologise, I think this thread is developing in a thoroughly positive and constructive way, but if one of the Moderators could indulge us, maybe the more recent postings need to go under a new heading like: -

"Existing and Potential Steam Loco kits, Possible Chassis Options"

I do concur with Alan that the NGS potentially has the "clout" to secure an order of 504 pieces on behalf of it's members but it isn't going to happen so developing something up to date and potentially viable at much lower volumes does make sense.

I wonder if Dave J has any thoughts he might share with us if he reads this?

Roy

I notice first off there is a poll , its a shame you can only tick one square .

alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 05:57:24 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
If the tooling still exists it is possible they may do a batch I guess, after all money is money, but minimum order quantity for any of their stuff is no less than 504 units.

This is the kind of thing the NGS should be looking at keeping an eye on, and championing any cause to keep the kits able to be built - there are now a lot of kit locos out there that require chassis that can't actually be bought.

The NGS have tried approaching Farish before without success. Whilst they will do commissions of finished models, they refuse outright to do runs of unfinished models or parts. When the NGS commission the SR Queen Mary brake van, they tried to commission a load of spare bogies for kit builders but Farish would not do it. They said it was not their policy to supply parts (despite the fact that Bachmann happily do so in 00  :headbutt: ).

As somebody who served an apprenticeship as a Toolmaker and then graduated to a Quality Control Engineer in the Aero Engine industry, here is my take on the situation. In my opinion both Farish and Dapol are as good or bad as one another.
The main problem is they do not make anything in house, they rely on subcontractors on the other side of the world, with the problems of vastly different time zones and a huge language barrier both internationally, internally and a different work and business ethic.
In my opinion this is the root of most of the problems:
It takes a long time to build up a good reputation, this can be lost overnight by an indifferent sub contractor.
If a larger/more profitable order comes in this takes priority over yours, so the delivery date slips.
From the faults that occur, these can be put down to bad production practices, e.g not letting the die cool sufficiently before ejecting the moulding hence distortion.
A total lack of testing, two uninsulated wheels on the same axle.
Not holding tolerances and poor assembly, two identical locos, one whisper quiet, one more noise than a coffee grinder.
Poor or non existent inspection and indifferent work force, wrong side frames on a class 66 so the steps don't line up with the doors
One company told me that 50% of the workers do not return after the Chinese New Year so half the workforce needs to be trained from scratch.
Overseas manufacture seems to lead to a lack of spares, you cant nip down to the production line and take a part out of a bin, its on the other side of the world.
With CAD and CNC machining and computer controlled checking I fail to see how such faults can occur, or are these practices non existent in the factories that produce the trains?
Forty odd years ago we could hold tolerances of plus or minus .0002" on a jig borer and not a CNC machine or computer in site.
Dapol and Farish seem to have gone overboard on unnecessary detailing instead of concentrating on  quality and reliability, maybe moving production back to the UK is the answer. As for cost if Hattons can sell a Colas 66 for £59 including VAT whilst others are asking £100 what is the  price  to Farish's warehouse door.

Geoff

Quote from: geoffc on June 18, 2014, 09:37:25 PM
.
Dapol and Farish seem to have gone overboard on unnecessary detailing instead of concentrating on  quality and reliability, maybe moving production back to the UK is the answer. As for cost if Hattons can sell a Colas 66 for £59 including VAT whilst others are asking £100 what is the  price  to Farish's warehouse door.

Geoff

With respect Geoff, whether detailing is "unnecessary" or not is subjective and no more than a matter of opinion. It should not be necessary to trade this off for better performance/reliability and nor in my experience does it. I have found without exception (9 locos so far) that with the new coreless motor mechanisms the latest generation of Farish with all their fine (and in my opinion desirable) detail run just as well as they look.

Regards

Roy

Hello all,

For avoidance of doubt, the NGS has in negotiations repeatedly asked about the possibility of purchasing unpainted models or spares (eg bogies) and always been rebuffed.

Farish DO keep spares and maintain a repair facility at Barwell; and some spares are available from BR Lines.

I also think it's unlikely Farish consider the needs of third party kit manufacturers when deciding whether to retire older chassis, and really why should they?

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on June 19, 2014, 12:06:33 AM

Hello all,

For avoidance of doubt, the NGS has in negotiations repeatedly asked about the possibility of purchasing unpainted models or spares (eg bogies) and always been rebuffed.

Farish DO keep spares and maintain a repair facility at Barwell; and some spares are available from BR Lines.

I also think it's unlikely Farish consider the needs of third party kit manufacturers when deciding whether to retire older chassis, and really why should they?

cheers

Ben A.

Hi Ben

Thank you for clarifying.

Only were there a solid commercial reason that worked for Bachmann could I see any prospect of them being persuaded to produce more of the old style chassis. This would mean a bulk buyer being prepared to take the whole run. If this were not the NGS I think kills the whole idea stone dead unless there is another benefactor out there with deep pockets who is prepared to take a risk and tie up his/her cash for a long time (unlikely!).

Nobody can expect Bachamann to be in the remotest bit interested in supporting the needs of the Third Party kit market unless it would also support/develop their own.  If it even does presently then it must surely be only in an extremely limited way?

This then moves the question on. While we may still be able to pick up some second-hand chassis for a while yet, will the lack of readily availability of "off the shelf" chassis ultimately kill the said N Gauge loco kit market? I think the lack of any new traditional cast whitemetal ones suggest it already is.

Indeed with changing trends in the Market, the advent of 3D printing and more items becoming available RTR is there still much of a Market for such "traditional" kits out there or is a new approach needed?

One for another thread...to be continued..

Regards

Roy

Perhaps Dave Jones would be worth approaching? The cost of tooling up a completely new chassis might be prohibitive but he is doing an N gauge J94 with other locos due to be announced next month.

Unlike Farish, he might be willing/able to produce modest runs of spare chassis. Just a thought.

Quote from: Ben A on June 19, 2014, 12:06:33 AM
For avoidance of doubt, the NGS has in negotiations repeatedly asked about the possibility of purchasing unpainted models or spares (eg bogies) and always been rebuffed.

Maybe the problem is in the word "asked".

Why does the NGS not put this as a requirement to the tender; eg a run of 250 (or whatever) full items, a further 250 unpainted bodies, 250 chassis, etc ?  Issue to all the mfrs, & see what you get back - then start dealing with the best bidder on the tender.

After all who is the customer ... ?  It sure ain't GraFar, so why let them dictate what you, the customer, can have ?

Hello again,

Just to spell it out...

We've asked, begged, tried to cajole, offered to buy as many as needed to make it viable, told them we'd pay a premium, threatened to go elsewhere etc etc and they are of the steadfast view that while they do produce a few selected spares to enable them to repair models returned to them, and to supply their chosen spares distributor (BR Lines) they are, in N at least, SOLELY in the market of supplying fully finished RTR items to everyone else.

cheers

Ben A.

What about approaching Union Mills for chassis, or aren't their's suitable?

Ben,

Is it a case of keeping on at them? I mean in the past we've been told many things weren't viable in N, and yet now we have them, e.g. spoked steam loco wheels.

Can the NGS order spares like bogies through the approved spares supplier (i.e. BR Lines) in order to get what it needs?

Seems a bit like madness when there are folks/organisations willing to spend money!

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: silly moo on June 19, 2014, 09:55:02 AM
What about approaching Union Mills for chassis, or aren't their's suitable?

Whether they are suitable would depend on the prototype. As tender driven, they are not good for tank engines. Also, in terms of detail, there is no advantage over 2nd hand Farish.

I've started a new thread, 'Bodgers and fiddlers' to discuss the whole issue of loco kits and chassis etc.

Quote from: Karhedron on June 19, 2014, 08:57:59 AM
Perhaps Dave Jones would be worth approaching? The cost of tooling up a completely new chassis might be prohibitive but he is doing an N gauge J94 with other locos due to be announced next month.

Unlike Farish, he might be willing/able to produce modest runs of spare chassis. Just a thought.

Hi Matt,

It's my stated aim to, with each release of model, have a complete set of spares available to purchase from launch.
A schematic of parts, numbered and possibly with prices ( although with changes in China this last one might be problematic) will be included in every box, plus on my web site.
Customers will be able to order any part, and even chassis on their own, directly from my web site, or snail mail, for use as they see fit.

Hope this helps?
Cheers
Dave

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 19, 2014, 10:17:32 AM
Customers will be able to order any part, and even chassis on their own, directly from my web site, or snail mail, for use as they see fit.

Thanks for the input Dave. I suspect that proffessionally produced chassis that can be purchased independently will be far better for kit building than us trying to put something together ourselves in our spare time.

Now, what shared a similar wheelbase to a J94?  :hmmm:

Quote from: geoffc on June 18, 2014, 09:37:25 PM

The main problem is they do not make anything in house, they rely on subcontractors on the other side of the world, with the problems of vastly different time zones and a huge language barrier both internationally, internally and a different work and business ethic.
In my opinion this is the root of most of the problems:
It takes a long time to build up a good reputation, this can be lost overnight by an indifferent sub contractor.

Geoff

Good point Geoff

But.. If they had proper Quality Assurance measures in place to evaluate and monitor their suppliers then maybe they could improve upon the quality from their subcontractors.

That's not to say that they don't already have such systems in place but maybe working down to a cost is limiting who they can take on as subcontractors.

Maybe, as you suggest, they could do more work in the UK. - Doesn't stop the potential for using bad UK subcontractors though.

As I've said somewhere else in this thread, I would rather pay a bit more knowing that I'm going to receive a fully working, no need to fiddle about with, reliable model..

Bob Austin

Quote from: Ben A on June 19, 2014, 09:26:40 AM
they are, in N at least, SOLELY in the market of supplying fully finished RTR items to everyone else.

Then maybe it's time for the NGS to start playing hardball with them ...  They want assistance on anything, fine - then they relax this stupid attitude, else sorry not this time.

And the NGS starts making public overtures to the other players in the field ...

When the mfr starts telling their clients what they can have, the client ain't the one in charge regardless of the fact that they have the money & award the contract ...

The NGS's purchases from major manufacturers is fairly modest at 1 RTR project per year and some spare parts where possible. Also the NGS already splits its commissions between Farish and Dapol. Simply put, I don't think Farish would lose any sleep if the NGS walked away.

Farish do not want the modest business and benefits that associating with NGS brings badly enough to change the way they work. They are happy to work with the NGS as long as it is on their own terms.

Quote from: MikeDunn on June 19, 2014, 12:46:14 PM

Quote from: Ben A on June 19, 2014, 09:26:40 AM
they are, in N at least, SOLELY in the market of supplying fully finished RTR items to everyone else.

Then maybe it's time for the NGS to start playing hardball with them ...  They want assistance on anything, fine - then they relax this stupid attitude, else sorry not this time.

And the NGS starts making public overtures to the other players in the field ...

When the mfr starts telling their clients what they can have, the client ain't the one in charge regardless of the fact that they have the money & award the contract ...

Hi Mike

You're right, the NGS is certainly *not* in charge when it comes to negotiations with Farish, or Dapol come to that.

But we're talking about model trains here.  The NGS committee members and officers are all volunteers, and like most modellers like to enjoy a stress-free and relaxing hobby.  Our work with the NGS isn't always stress-free, but I think I speak for all or most of the officers and committee members when I say that we consider such pressures worth it for the pleasure we get from helping in our own small way to promote N, grow the hobby and provide NGS members with items they would otherwise probably not have.

Many of those who work at Farish (and Dapol, and elsewhere) are also our friends.  I have no intention of "playing hardball" and if that is unnacceptable to the membership then I would be the first (but probably not the last) to step aside.

cheers

Ben A.
(NGS VP)

Sorry if this upsets you, Ben, but this sounds like the way the Dapol Club or Bachmann Club will react to such comments, not how what is supposed to be an independent Club should be acting ...

The NGS is the customer.  If the supplier wants to walk all over the customer and if the customer lets this happen - they're mugs ...

Would you treat a friend the way your "friends" are apparently (from your own words) treating you / the NGS ?

I think that the point you are missing is that the NGS is not a big customer. We do not have significant commercial clout and Farish would not really notice or care if we walked away.

So far the NGS has commisioned 2 items of rolling stock (not sure if there have been some reliveries as well or not). Plenty of shops are probably bigger customers. The only difference is that the NGS buys a large quantity of a few specially comisioned models rather than a handful from across the range. Like any other Farish customers, we are free to accept their standard Ts&Cs or take our business elsewhere.

Your comments about "playing hardball" seem to assume that the NGS is negotiating from a position of strength but the simple fact is that we are not. We are a relatively small customer in financial terms and Farish are certainly not under any sort of financial obligation to accomodate us.

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us. Without Farish and Dapol, there would not be a significant N gauge scene for the society to support. Farish gets some benefits from its relationship from the NGS in terms of having a single point of contact who speak for a significant proportion of their customers. But that is not the same as saying that we have leverage. If the NGS started to try and throw its weight around, Farish would probably simply walk away and we would lose a valuable line of communication for expressing the interests of the members.

Farish's refusal to deal in spares (even for commisioned models) is illogical and exasperating but it is clear they are not going to change and it is not worth wasting the raport we have with them on a hissy fit.

Well, with Dave coming on-board as a manufacturer, the pool of suppliers is enlarging & I would hope that the NGS would be prepared to step away from "poor" suppliers in favour of those ready & willing to fulfil the customer requirement, instead of accepting being told "it's my ball, so tough".

I wonder what percentage of N Gauge modellers are members of the N Gauge Society and how many society members would like to have more spares available. It might be worthwhile for the society to do a survey and if the large majority of members do want spares to ask Farish again.

If they do not want to supply parts then they leave the market open for 'pirate' parts which with the advent of 3D printing are becoming easier to make.

Perhaps there's a business opportunity for someone out there.

I guess it may depend what spares and how many.

Whenever I have had the need to ask for something (may even have said so earlier in this topic) I have contacted Bachmann via the website, specifying what I require, been billed via Paypal and got the items in a matter of a few days.

I do not doubt that they have a small stock of spares for repairs etc but not sufficient to make a fully fledged business out of it and clearly they do not want to either.

I take a different view to the one expressed above. My take is that it is their business and down to them what they supply and to whom. We may prefer it to be different but surely it is not the job of "customers" who may think they know better to try to dictate. I am thinking that to stay in business they do know their market pretty well and maybe it is just too insignificant to be worth the investment in time and resources.

It must also be remembered as regards "back-shoring" to the UK that the parent company Kader is Chinese so that just isn't going to happen.

Roy

Re my previous post, I have no idea how many modellers have a need for extra spares but I suspect not that many.

I agree that it is their (Farish's) business and it's up to them how to run it but if there IS a great demand for spares then maybe there is a business opportunity for someone to make replica parts, I'm not sure how legal that would be though.

I'm very pleased to hear that DJM will have a full range of spares.

Quote from: MikeDunn on June 19, 2014, 03:06:18 PM
Sorry if this upsets you, Ben, but this sounds like the way the Dapol Club or Bachmann Club will react to such comments, not how what is supposed to be an independent Club should be acting ...

The NGS is the customer.  If the supplier wants to walk all over the customer and if the customer lets this happen - they're mugs ...

Would you treat a friend the way your "friends" are apparently (from your own words) treating you / the NGS ?

Hello Mike,

No need to apologise, I am not at all upset and in my view the real "mug" would be the person whose bluff is called, and who is revealed to be holding a dead man's hand.

Your analysis is, I would argue, flawed because dealing with a manufacturer is not the same as walking into a shop to buy something, and in this market the customer is not always right.

Let me explain:

Bachmann/Farish do not normally accept commissions from anyone without a retail premises.  If you were to contact them tomorrow and offer to pay for a limited run model that you would sell from your garage via the web they would refuse; their view is that their most important customers are the retail trade, and they need to keep them onside.

Because of the good working relationship we have very carefully built up - call it friendship, or perhaps respect if you like - they are prepared to make an exception for the NGS because, among other reasons, we are commissioning items that would not otherwise be made in N, and because they appreciate that with them we are working to grow the scale, which ultimately benefits their retailers too.

So no one is walking over the NGS, and no one is treating anyone like a mug.  No one is spitting the dummy or stamping their foot because they can't get exactly what they want when they want it.  It's a mutually professional relationship handled in a pragmatic and courteous manner which benefits, we believe, NGS members and N Gauge as a whole.

And as has been said, if it's a genuine spare you need to replace a defective part then they will supply this if they can.

cheers

Ben A.
(NGS VP)

A clear and concise summing up.

Quote from: Karhedron on June 19, 2014, 03:19:26 PM

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us.

Farish's refusal to deal in spares (even for commisioned models) is illogical and exasperating but it is clear they are not going to change and it is not worth wasting the raport we have with them on a hissy fit.

Wow, this debate has certainly moved on somewhat since I checked yesterday, all good stuff!

I don't buy that one, that we need them more than they need us. If that were the case, then the manufacturers wouldn't exist. Like someone else pointed out, they are not doing us a favour, they are not a charity to the model railway enthusiast. They are there to make money, and money only. Whoever invested the capital in the likes of Bachmann et al did so to make a return, not primarily for the love of trains. I would say THEY NEED US just as much as we need them - it has to be a balance otherwise the product wouldn't exist.

I do caveat the above however, by saying that a lot of companies ARE ORIGINALLY set up by the love of the hobby, but are later bought out for entirely profit making reasons. I think Graham Farish have to be careful in this respect as if they want to become a "toymaker" and only supply throw-away models, that's fine, but it's a different market to the one we are in and the likes of DJM (excellent concept DJM - as someone who likes to hold my own spares, I'm converted!) will step in and that's where our money will go.

They need us JUST AS MUCH as we need them (in some respects I would argue they need us more so, since one could spend that money on beer, ice-cream or whatever else he/she chose to spend it on) , simply because we are the ones with the cash. I might write to Bachmann, but really we don't need to. Our purchasing decisions will dictate the end product. If it is to be a "toy product" then that's because the market dictates as such. However, I think most of us on here (the modellers, the enthusiasts) are numerous enough for there to be a sustainable industry to cater for our needs, to take our cash, so as to speak.

Good point Karhedron about the lack if spares from Bachmann. I brought this up a few pages ago, but was informed that you can get parts from them. I'm now not sure what the truth is on this one. I don't really have many Bachmann models so I cannot really say. However, if it is true, then they have just lost me as a customer for powered locomotives, since my hobby is maintaining my own locos. I'm just not interested in a toy that, if it breaks, either has to be sent back or thrown in the bin.

Can anyone give us an answer on this from experience. And preferable we're talking parts beyond just split gears.

If it's true that parts are hard to come by then Bachmann probably made the decision that they don't want people repairing old locos, since it cannibalises new sales. Perhaps they are right from that perspective, but from my perspective I am now buying a completely different kind of product that doesn't meet my hobby needs. This is where the likes of others (perhaps DJM) step in.

I wouldn't buy a car that I could not buy spare parts for. Same for my locomotives.

Good thread this!

Dan

Quote from: silly moo on June 19, 2014, 04:11:34 PM
I wonder what percentage of N Gauge modellers are members of the N Gauge Society and how many society members would like to have more spares available. It might be worthwhile for the society to do a survey and if the large majority of members do want spares to ask Farish again.

If they do not want to supply parts then they leave the market open for 'pirate' parts which with the advent of 3D printing are becoming easier to make.

Perhaps there's a business opportunity for someone out there.

I love that one silky moo - "pirate parts"  :smiley-laughing: oh you make us sound like such rebels  8)

You make a good point though. I would definitely be interested in exploring "pirate parts" if I cannot get originals from the manufacturer. Question is, would I be doing anything piratical?  :D no, seriously, would I be doing anything illegal. Could I be "a guest of Her Majesty" for such a crime as producing a steam bearing for the Poole chassis?

I'm very happy buying spares from BR Lines and I think Bob does us all a service. However, I feel Bob is an exception, and there is (and possibly won't be) another person like him in the future. I want to keep my Poole built fleet going for as long as I live! I'm not sure I would have the confidence to say the same thing about the Chinese models.

Cheers

Dan

PS: I'd be interested in exploring "parts production".

Quote from: DesertHound on June 19, 2014, 06:44:20 PM
]


Good point Karhedron about the lack if spares from Bachmann. I brought this up a few pages ago, but was informed that you can get parts from them. I'm now not sure what the truth is on this one. I don't really have many Bachmann models so I cannot really say. However, if it is true, then they have just lost me as a customer for powered locomotives, since my hobby is maintaining my own locos. I'm just not interested in a toy that, if it breaks, either has to be sent back or thrown in the bin.

Can anyone give us an answer on this from experience. And preferable we're talking parts beyond just split gears.

If it's true that parts are hard to come by then Bachmann probably made the decision that they don't want people repairing old locos, since it cannibalises new sales. Perhaps they are right from that perspective, but from my perspective I am now buying a completely different kind of product that doesn't meet my hobby needs. This is where the likes of others (perhaps DJM) step in.

Hi Dan

Well all I can say is that whatever parts I have requested from Bachmann have been supplied. Yes ironically a wheelset for a split gear on a 108 but also three different types of drawbar too including one for an Ivatt.

Each loco from Bachmann has an exploded diagram and is capable of being dismantled for repair, I do not think there is anything in the designs that makes them intended as throw-away items. The same couldn't be said for some early Dapol, but it certainly appeard the case with more recent stuff.

Regards

Roy

Due to their irregular batch production, both Bachmann and Dapol probably don't hold many spares after taking into account faulty and non-working returns from shops.

Once they've successfully repaired as many faulty returns as possible, they often resell these through their own trade stands at shows they attend. After that there's not many spares left over for sale for any other repairs.

My solution isn't ideal but I've duplicated several loco classes that are in current production (e.g. Dapol 153, A1 Pacific) if they're essential for my collection so in the long term I can raid them for spares.

Sorry guys, I jumped the gun a bit there. I replied to an earlier post without reading the thread to the end. I see a few examples of people getting spares from Bachmann, so fair play on that one.

That said, the models are becoming more bespoke / tailored (whatever you want to call it) for both better and worse. Roy L S I do note your comments on the virtues of the new products. However, for someone like me (I might be the minority, maybe the only one!) I don't get the impression there is the "durability of spares" in that you can swap parts around, common parts fit various chassis etc etc etc. a bit like lego changing the compatibility of their building blocks every year.

I know the issue cuts both ways, however, in that some people (most I would assume) value accuracy over commonality of parts.

Cheers, really enjoying this thread!

Dan

I'm still curious about how big the market for spares is. I'm trying to think of how many spares I've needed for my 40 odd locos which I've collected and run over the last twenty years.

I have bought brushes, springs and traction tyres. I needed to replace valve gear on a Jubilee and got Bob from BR Lines to repair a HST. I seem to have been incredibly lucky because that's all I've needed so far.

I have very few diesels so I haven't had split gears.

I've no idea if I'm average or not but I haven't spent a fortune on spares.

I think gc4946 is absolutely right about the effect batch production is having on the availability of spares and that finding spares for the latest locos with their sophisticated detailing, say ten years down the line is going to be difficult.

just a thought, has any one given a thought to the modern plastic's use on the models, will in a couple of years become de-gradable?, Dapol will tell you that they use (re-use umpteen times) re-cycled plastic for there ex Airfix kits, just look back to the old Tri-ang models of the early 1950's when they go 'bannana' in shape.

I've just opened a cupboard to find where some carrier bags were storred, a heap of plastic confetti.

alan

Just to clarify for those who have just joined the thread, the issue is not that Farish will not supply spares at all. If something is broken, they will do their best to fix it (within reason and warranty).

What they will not do is allow runs of spare parts. The example in question was the NGS trying to commission a bulk run of SR bogies at the same time as the QM Brake van.

Quote from: Karhedron on June 19, 2014, 03:19:26 PM

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us.

So we accept any old tat? 

No.   If Dapol and Farish fail to provide quality products some may accept it, I wouldn't.  I didn't model n 20 years ago because it was rubbish quality with hideous compromises, i would hate to go back to that and doubt we will.

But the world has changed, the era of cheap manufacturing is over for low volume products.   We will have to accept higher prices: if the quality goes up i will be happy to pay (although for less actual products)

Quote from: gc4946 on June 19, 2014, 07:03:44 PM


My solution isn't ideal but I've duplicated several loco classes that are in current production (e.g. Dapol 153, A1 Pacific) if they're essential for my collection so in the long term I can raid them for spares.

That's not a solution in my mind :no:
At some point in the future it could mean you have paid £200+ for one decent running A1 due to lack of spares from the manufacturer :goggleeyes:

I've got hold of used locos from various sources or disposed of some of my 'orribly 'oversized stock to afford duplicates, but I concede not everyone's fortunate in that respect.
My Dapol FGW 153, wanted for my collection, was bought used, but damaged with several missing parts was only restored by robbing parts off one of my other 153s because several key spares such as bogies weren't available separately :hmmm:

On balance I'd rather have plenty of spares backup at the manufacturers, or selected spares agents in the first place.
After all I've no idea how long today's motors, gears or electronics will last... :hmmm:
... or if one of my prized locos is involved in a one-in-a-million freak accident and the bodywork is damaged beyond reasonable repair.

Quote from: silly moo on June 19, 2014, 07:16:24 PM
I'm still curious about how big the market for spares is. I'm trying to think of how many spares I've needed for my 40 odd locos which I've collected and run over the last twenty years.

I have bought brushes, springs and traction tyres. I needed to replace valve gear on a Jubilee and got Bob from BR Lines to repair a HST. I seem to have been incredibly lucky because that's all I've needed so far.

I have very few diesels so I haven't had split gears.

I've no idea if I'm average or not but I haven't spent a fortune on spares.

I think gc4946 is absolutely right about the effect batch production is having on the availability of spares and that finding spares for the latest locos with their sophisticated detailing, say ten years down the line is going to be difficult.

I think you are probably like most collectors silly moo in their spares requirement - the odd part here and there. Perhaps that is why you don't see many spares available (but for manufacturers purposefully not to make them available, re the NGS situation - that's not on in my book).

That's fine for most collectors and probably how I would have remained (I had a rebuilt Merchant Navy sent off for repair as a kid, and that's about it until recently, when I became interested in servicing my locos), but some people like rebuilding non-runners, bringing existing models up to the highest spec they can by stripping them down for a good clean. Parts invariable spring off into the ether, or get broken from clumsy hands in the process, and for me, well, that's my hobby just as much as running trains. I find it immensely enjoyable turning a non-runner into a runner. I have a stock of 50-60 locos that were stored for 15 years and I've only just started getting the first few back to top running order.

Now, I know thise is a niche. I don't expect parts will be made forever. I doubt you can buy dublo parts from Hornby anymore. I know for most people they want to buy a loco and have it work. But, where do people draw the line in buying locos? Do we just buy buy buy, every new release, until we have a gazillion of them (a bit like the way mobile phones have gone crazy - a new one every six months for kids these days), or do we enjoy what we have and look after it through care and makntenance? Clearly I know what the manufacturers would prefer!

I really am interested in exploring the possibility of having parts made. Perhaps it depends upon the parts in question, but I'm not sure how you could be hauled before a court for 3D printing a gear or bearing. Nobody has a patent on the wheel do they?

At present I'm fully supportive of Bob at BR Lines and will continue to be so. As to Bachmann, I haven't used them for parts.

Dan

Quote from: Zakalwe on June 19, 2014, 08:25:14 PM

Quote from: Karhedron on June 19, 2014, 03:19:26 PM

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us.

So we accept any old tat? 

No.   If Dapol and Farish fail to provide quality products some may accept it, I wouldn't.  I didn't model n 20 years ago because it was rubbish quality with hideous compromises, i would hate to go back to that and doubt we will.

But the world has changed, the era of cheap manufacturing is over for low volume products.   We will have to accept higher prices: if the quality goes up i will be happy to pay (although for less actual products)

Zakalwe

Absolutely spot on. I agree 100%

I am committed to n gauge now - I've bought a load of stuff already but lets have models that work properly and reliably with no fuss even if it costs more.

Bob Austin

Just to throw something else into the mix - Fleischmann.  Their products look good, well detailed, have a good reputation for reliability and as far as I can tell they are all made in Germany.  Spares availability appears good.  So how come they haven't gone bust yet?

Fleishmann seem to cost 2-3 times as much as an equivelent UK model. For example, their DB BR52 2-10-0 steam loco retails at over £300 in the UK (maybe cheaper in Germany but probably not by that much). Dapol's 9F 2-10-0 can be picked up for well under £100.

I think that having invested £300+ in a loco, the Germans (rightly) expect it to run like a Swiss watch and last long enough to pass on to their grandchildren. Several manufacturers have commented that British modellers are very price sensitive. I remember that the Ixion Manor was the first loco to hit the £100 barrier and caused mumblings at the time for it. Simmilarly the Dapol Gresley coaches were deemed by many to be rather too pricey.

In a sense, we get what we pay for. I would like better and more reliabl models but I am not sure I would pay Fleischmann prices for them. Germany clearly has a market segment willing to pay a significant price premium for top-of-the-line models and this business model works for Fleishmann.

Because the German model railway market is much bigger than in the UK and their models cost around double of those in the UK.

Their models are very nice but not a great deal superior to the best in UK N, such as DP1 or the Fairburn.

Prices in Germany seem more reasonable as you might expect.  Their Kriegslok 2-10-0 is listed around 230 Euros, say £180.  That's a lot of money, but it's a lot of loco. Even so, I doubt the British market would stand that right now, but the way things are going in China that price gap is going to start narrowing a lot in the next few years.  82 million Germans vs 63 million Brits - I agree it's a larger market for sure.

Do Germans have more disposable income to spend on hobbies?

How much does the high cost of rent/mortgages/fuel here limit spending on trains?

The Fleischmann factory in Arad is ISO9001 certified.

Best regards
Michael

I'm not sure now, but a lot of Fleischmann stuff doesn't seem that sophisticated - basic 3 pole motors (albeit decent runners), fairly deep flanged wheels etc - a lot of UK outline models are way ahead now in terms of fidelity IMHO.

Cheers,
Alan

Good points there about Fleischmann guys. I think it's a bigger market not just because they have  20 million more people (also don't forget the Swiss and the Austrians) but I think they most probably have a more "traditional hobby market" and more people are interested in model trains. Also I do believe that they have more spare time and most certainly more disposable income with more comprehensive pensions for retired people (a key market segment) and don't forget that a lot of houses in Germany are built with cellars of 4-5 rooms! Perfect for railway modelling if insulated properly  8)

I was in Innsbruck last month - had a look in a toy shop at the Fleischmann models and was very impressed. The models were more expensive yes, but I think as Karhedron said, you get what you pay for.

It's nice to see that they still produce the models in Germany and I think by doing so they have kept their ethos of quality. I'm not saying that Grafar in Poole was top quality but I just somehow feel that moving production to China moves you away from your core customer market. I was saddened when they closed the factory in Poole and it was at that time that I decided to collect British built models. Complete nostalgia I know, but hey ho!

Just a quick take on the spares. I suspect that the Germans take the view that spares are integral to a product, in that "it's part of the product". I don't think they would see it as logical to sell a model train that you cold not get spares for.

Even here in Dubai I can drive 10 minutes down the road to the Bosch service centre to get components (only really needed to buy bags - but you can get other bits I think) for my 30 pound vacuum cleaner. If they don't have what you want then they order it in for you. I just think that that is part of their culture. Sadly I think in the UK we have gone down the "contracting out" route and whilst products might seem nice and shiny in the shops, I just don't feel there's much support behind the products.

Will you be able to get spares for a 20 year old Cantonese built model? I'm not so sure. The factory will most probably have moved on to producing plastic ding dongs, or whatever else by then.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on June 20, 2014, 12:05:02 PM
Do Germans have more disposable income to spend on hobbies?

How much does the high cost of rent/mortgages/fuel here limit spending on trains?

The Fleischmann factory in Arad is ISO9001 certified.

Best regards
Michael

This is where it gets complicated, a couple of years ago German disposable income was about 20% higher
than UK, however all sorts of things get involved, housing costs, childcare, energy, healthcare, variations in
the Euro rate, about the only directly comparable factor is the VAT rate, UK 20%, Germany 19%.

We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Note Dan's posts .Been to Germany a few times, holidays and visiting relatives (ex pats),
their standard of living is higher than the UK , although the East lags behind a bit.
The Germans have usually excelled in engineering, electricals, chemicals etc and their
GDP is much higher than the UK. Also I don't think they suffered so much in the banking
crisis a few years ago and their economy is not driven by house prices and high street
booms. A fairly complex situation to relate to model rail products!

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

Interesting Dave, very interesting!

Hi guys - did a reply on here about 40 mins ago , to find just now that it had disappeared into the ether completely , so.....firstly , interested in the socio-economic comparisons (which I agree with , having spent quite a lot of time in Berlin & bits of the old east Germany after reunification , until 2009) . This is in danger of becoming quite an intellectual (but still meandering !) thread . Ok , points I wanted to make were centred around this view - that the Poole era was NEVER anything like a "golden era" for us UK N gauge modellers IMHO . We simply had nowhere else to go for UK outline N stuff . As soon as Bachmann took over & we started getting Chinese made product through , there was an immediate & sustained improvement in quality , right up to this day . Dapol entered the fray , & gave us even more choice , likewise Union Mills - yes , there ARE sometimes/often (depending on who you listen to)  issues with build quality , reliability , spare parts , customer service etc BUT BUT BUT I would argue that THIS is our golden era , right now (warts n all !!)
                   When I started trawling Ebay for N gauge items 12 years ago , there were just over 1000 listed - all eras , all countries . Now there are 20,000 N gauge items on there . Choice ? It's mind boggling ! After taking early retirement in 2002 & deciding to go down the N gauge route (only previous model railway experience was when I was 10 or 11  with table top Triang 00) after a few months I went to the one of the 4 yearly N Gauge Association Exhibitions (2003 ?), spent time watching the Lenz Compact being demonstrated & came away a (totally non technical) DCC convert . Now I realise that DCC isn't to everyone's taste , & never will be , BUT you have to admit that the choice available now to DCC N gaugers is bewildering . Back then in 2003 it was a Eureka moment to find someone who could hard wire a decoder for you if you weren't confident to do it yourself (long before the luxury of 6 pin decoders) .
                Also , we should never lose sight of the fact that compared with 00 we are always going to be a bit of a fringe market , which has its implications for how big a shout we have in the grand scheme of things . But then what do I know ??? Here endeth the sermon- best wishes TO ALL !

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 01:11:09 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

The thing there is those Fleischmann locos were purely QC failures and once replaced they worked out of the box. So it's not good news that Fleischmann locos are suffering failures, but they're not design issues just problems with duff ones getting through that weren't made to spec.

The issues I (and apparently rather a lot of other people) have had with Dapol and some Farish locos is that even when you get a 'good' one that's been assembled to spec, you still have to fettle it to make it run reliably, or repair it at a much more frequent rate than a Fleischmann or Arnold loco.

Price isn't really an issue with quality control and design issues. If the factory isn't equipped to build the product as designed or test and catch the problem ones, you'll get failures getting through to customers and if the designers of the original model and manufacturing process are missing something then the factory issues will only add to the problems.

Quote from: Zwilnik on June 20, 2014, 02:28:39 PM

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 01:11:09 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

The thing there is those Fleischmann locos were purely QC failures and once replaced they worked out of the box. So it's not good news that Fleischmann locos are suffering failures, but they're not design issues just problems with duff ones getting through that weren't made to spec.

The issues I (and apparently rather a lot of other people) have had with Dapol and some Farish locos is that even when you get a 'good' one that's been assembled to spec, you still have to fettle it to make it run reliably, or repair it at a much more frequent rate than a Fleischmann or Arnold loco.

Price isn't really an issue with quality control and design issues. If the factory isn't equipped to build the product as designed or test and catch the problem ones, you'll get failures getting through to customers and if the designers of the original model and manufacturing process are missing something then the factory issues will only add to the problems.

Don't forget the costs either. £500 for 100% failure over 3 loco's.
I'd venture to suggest that if a failure at £100 isn't regarded as good, then 3 at £500 is atrocious!

Indeed, as you quote, 'if the factory isn't equipped etc ' then why charge top rate for 3 loco's you couldn't even QC properly?

Price should always be an issue with quality control.
If I pay more money I want less chances it will go wrong, and I'll play even more merry hell when it does, as opposed to something that we think is expensive but in the whole scheme of things isn't when compared to others, for what your getting nowadays. :-)

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: Bigric on June 20, 2014, 02:07:36 PM
Hi guys - did a reply on here about 40 mins ago , to find just now that it had disappeared into the ether completely , so.....firstly , interested in the socio-economic comparisons (which I agree with , having spent quite a lot of time in Berlin & bits of the old east Germany after reunification , until 2009) . This is in danger of becoming quite an intellectual (but still meandering !) thread . Ok , points I wanted to make were centred around this view - that the Poole era was NEVER anything like a "golden era" for us UK N gauge modellers IMHO . We simply had nowhere else to go for UK outline N stuff . As soon as Bachmann took over & we started getting Chinese made product through , there was an immediate & sustained improvement in quality , right up to this day . Dapol entered the fray , & gave us even more choice , likewise Union Mills - yes , there ARE sometimes/often (depending on who you listen to)  issues with build quality , reliability , spare parts , customer service etc BUT BUT BUT I would argue that THIS is our golden era , right now (warts n all !!)
                   When I started trawling Ebay for N gauge items 12 years ago , there were just over 1000 listed - all eras , all countries . Now there are 20,000 N gauge items on there . Choice ? It's mind boggling ! After taking early retirement in 2002 & deciding to go down the N gauge route (only previous model railway experience was when I was 10 or 11  with table top Triang 00) after a few months I went to the one of the 4 yearly N Gauge Association Exhibitions (2003 ?), spent time watching the Lenz Compact being demonstrated & came away a (totally non technical) DCC convert . Now I realise that DCC isn't to everyone's taste , & never will be , BUT you have to admit that the choice available now to DCC N gaugers is bewildering . Back then in 2003 it was a Eureka moment to find someone who could hard wire a decoder for you if you weren't confident to do it yourself (long before the luxury of 6 pin decoders) .
                Also , we should never lose sight of the fact that compared with 00 we are always going to be a bit of a fringe market , which has its implications for how big a shout we have in the grand scheme of things . But then what do I know ??? Here endeth the sermon- best wishes TO ALL !

Bigric

I think you have brought a balance to the conversation, which I would pretty much agree with. In relative terms N gauge has gotten better and I suspect it will continue to do so. That doesn't mean (and I'm not quoting you here) that we should accept locos not working out of the box and design flaws. Like I said before, it has happened to me on one of the few BachFar's I have. I guess it's just a process of continual improvement.

Coming back to my earlier point though, I just feel (and this probably goes for pretty much everything, not just model trains) that we are going down the road of "plug and play, and then throw away". For example, an 08 shunter I have from Bachman, after unscrewing the body, I only managed to get one screw back on, since I just couldn't get the rest to screw in (due to foot steps or something being in the way). I just don't feel they are made to be tinkered with anymore. Slight variation on the topic thread I know, and maybe not a concern to most people, but that and the (possible difficulty of obtaining enough) spares and it's not as appealing to me as the old locos.

Just my tuppence worth. I've made that point enough now so I'll let others take the conversation forward  :-X

Dan

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 02:41:33 PM

Quote from: Zwilnik on June 20, 2014, 02:28:39 PM

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 01:11:09 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

The thing there is those Fleischmann locos were purely QC failures and once replaced they worked out of the box. So it's not good news that Fleischmann locos are suffering failures, but they're not design issues just problems with duff ones getting through that weren't made to spec.

The issues I (and apparently rather a lot of other people) have had with Dapol and some Farish locos is that even when you get a 'good' one that's been assembled to spec, you still have to fettle it to make it run reliably, or repair it at a much more frequent rate than a Fleischmann or Arnold loco.

Price isn't really an issue with quality control and design issues. If the factory isn't equipped to build the product as designed or test and catch the problem ones, you'll get failures getting through to customers and if the designers of the original model and manufacturing process are missing something then the factory issues will only add to the problems.

Don't forget the costs either. £500 for 100% failure over 3 loco's.
I'd venture to suggest that if a failure at £100 isn't regarded as good, then 3 at £500 is atrocious!

Indeed, as you quote, 'if the factory isn't equipped etc ' then why charge top rate for 3 loco's you couldn't even QC properly?

Price should always be an issue with quality control.
If I pay more money I want less chances it will go wrong, and I'll play even more merry hell when it does, as opposed to something that we think is expensive but in the whole scheme of things isn't when compared to others, for what your getting nowadays. :-)

Cheers
Dave

Sorry Dave, should have been a bit more clear with what I said on price. What I meant was that lower or higher prices in themselves don't change how well the model is designed, assembled or QC'd. A high price *should* indicate that the models are well designed, well built and checked before they leave the factory, but unfortunately this isn't the case in model railway engines.

My point about Fleischmann is that they seem to still be getting the design element right and (usually from what I've seen) the manufacturing and QC seem better than the 2 main British manufacturers, but any failure of QC (especially a cluster) will really annoy a customer and get them a bad rep, so it's normally where a manufacturer should really put some effort in.

If QC ends up costing too much (too many failures not getting out of the door) it's indicative of a design or manufacturing floor and efforts need to be put in there, rather than just pretending it isn't an issue and reducing the QC.

Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on June 20, 2014, 12:05:02 PM

The Fleischmann factory in Arad is ISO9001 certified.

Best regards
Michael

Now that's a good point. ISO9001 requires that the manufacturer has all the Quality insurance systems in place that I have been talking about - including control of subcontractors. Again it costs money to get registered but if the system that has been registered is effective then the Company will save money in the long term and improve quality of product to the customer.

Bob Austin

mm.

I have two thoughts about Dapol. one, brilliant stuff, great assortment and if they run , normally perfect runners. other thought. there's always something, class 43 with light issues, class 66 who are wobbly after a while and can have light issues. class 158 easy to get shorts. I did't bother in the beginning as there was a good service offered by DCC supplies..

there's only a but gents and girls. don't send loco's back more then 2 times , then you get the nasty e-mails saying that they don;t have problems and that everything is down to a poor layout you have built. not with so many words but if you read between the lines ??.

Imho they are absolutely right. I have a poor build layout, I am an amateur, and I don't know what I am doing. But this amateur has looked today over 5 hours to lets day 35 trains constantly running without any situation. must say that I am getting more and more graham Farish so my problems are getting less and they only problems on my layout are .... indeed dapol class 43 with light issues. But yes I believe DCC supplies I have a poor build layout.

So Back on the question, Dapol fine if you have a perfectly build layout. Graham Farish suits poorer build layouts better but both are not the European build quality, but on the other hand also half the price so you get what you're paying for.

IMO the best example of a manufacturer's approach is that of Kato USA - their models spend a long time in gestation but when they are launched they are "right".  Every component in their models - from unpainted bodyshells to sets of axles, bogie assemblies and coupler mounts - can be ordered separately.

However, the price of this is that Kato USA seem only to launch one locomotive every couple of years, and maybe one new freight car or coach per annum.  Whereas in Britain there seems to be an expectation of far more frequent new releases.   Having said that, the new Farish Deltic was their first new diesel, IIRC, since the Class 70 this time last year, so maybe things are slowing down now...

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on June 20, 2014, 11:26:48 PM
Having said that, the new Farish Deltic was their first new diesel, IIRC, since the Class 70 this time last year, so maybe things are slowing down now...

For diesel/electric there must see a slowing down I'd have thought as most of the major classes have now been retooled or are promised.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 20, 2014, 11:32:46 PM

Quote from: Ben A on June 20, 2014, 11:26:48 PM
Having said that, the new Farish Deltic was their first new diesel, IIRC, since the Class 70 this time last year, so maybe things are slowing down now...

For diesel/electric there must see a slowing down I'd have thought as most of the major classes have now been retooled or are promised.

Cheers,
Alan

One glaring gap for me (unless someone knows different) are the 8 axle diesels :(
I have a weathered Peak on pre-order but as far as I know it is still the old tooling ???

Newport nobby just read my mine.... I am hoping bachfar with bring out DCC ready class 45 and 46 variants..would definitely add to the must buy list

Quote from: newportnobby on June 21, 2014, 12:34:57 PM
I have a weathered Peak on pre-order but as far as I know it is still the old tooling ???

That's a 2005 or so tooled model, so I wouldn't classify it as old tooling (or see that any changes in tooling are likely to be made any time soon). It was, however, the last that used the split chassis style of mechanism.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: austinbob on June 20, 2014, 08:13:21 PM

Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on June 20, 2014, 12:05:02 PM

The Fleischmann factory in Arad is ISO9001 certified.

Best regards
Michael

Now that's a good point. ISO9001 requires that the manufacturer has all the Quality insurance systems in place that I have been talking about - including control of subcontractors. Again it costs money to get registered but if the system that has been registered is effective then the Company will save money in the long term and improve quality of product to the customer.

Bob Austin

ISO 9001 does not automatically mean a quality product.

It means a company has processes and monitoring in place to comply with the criteria which protects them as well as people that buy from them

....BUT you could have ISO9901 compliance to produce the most basic product in the fastest and cheapest way.   Lots of cheap plastic children's toy manufacturers are fully ISO9001 and other compliant but you wouldn't grade their output as quality

The Kader factory is ISO9001 accredited...

Have to agree with Zakalwe - IS09001 means nought to me. Perhaps if it was a European or Japanese factory that was accredited, then I might take notice, but Chinese ... ?

Most of the products where I live come from China (I know we think most of the products in the UK come from China, but here they REALLY do). Wouldn't touch most of them with a barge pole. Cheap tosh and they put all sorts of accreditations on them, ISO, BSO with the kite mark (I think it is), "MADE IN ENGLAND", "MADE IN GERMANY" ... they just blantantly lie on their products. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious in that these products could, in some instances, kill or injure people.

I even know someone who has got a "Samsung" phone, yet it isn't really a Samsung at all.

Okay, I'm not going to say this is the case with Chinese trains (far from it), but I'm just saying that the attitude to production and reputability is different, say, in China, than it is in Europe.

Dan

Speaking of which, I've just had part of a chassis top (the black plastic curved top) of a British India Line "Made in China" snap. Hasn't happened on any of my Poole built Duchesses or Merchant Navy's and the plastic does look / feel inferior on this British India Line. It could be a complete coincidence and a one off ... but, just saying  :worried:

Quote from: DesertHound on June 22, 2014, 12:49:41 PM
Speaking of which, I've just had part of a chassis top (the black plastic curved top) of a British India Line "Made in China" snap. Hasn't happened on any of my Poole built Duchesses or Merchant Navy's and the plastic does look / feel inferior on this British India Line. It could be a complete coincidence and a one off ... but, just saying  :worried:

re-cycled biodegradable plastic no dout, it makes you wonder what will happen to our purchases in a coule of years time, brass is another, i've recently had rusty brass plumming fittings and brass padlocks, are our overseas manufacture's mixing materials and keeping the best for 'home' use ?


alan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 22, 2014, 12:46:10 PM
Have to agree with Zakalwe - IS09001 means nought to me. Perhaps if it was a European or Japanese factory that was accredited, then I might take notice, but Chinese ... ?

doesn't matter geographically to be honest.

ISO9001 is a measure of how well a company audits it's process , materials, suppliers etc.    not the quality of their product.   There are good and bad in Europe, it is not a measure of quality.   There are company's all over the world  with no ISO9001 accreditation that make wonderful products and those with it that make throw away tat but audit-able throw away tat

Quote from: mr bachmann on June 22, 2014, 03:36:42 PM

re-cycled biodegradable plastic no dout, it makes you wonder what will happen to our purchases in a coule of years time, brass is another, i've recently had rusty brass plumming fittings and brass padlocks, are our overseas manufacture's mixing materials and keeping the best for 'home' use ?


alan

Alan

Why do you say biodegradable plastic "no doubt" It is surely but speculation on your part?

If you are truly in "no doubt" I am intrigued to know the basis of the information you have to back this up? I would think it highly unlikely that the plastic is biodegradable although very possibly it could be recyclable.

Roy

Quote from: mr bachmann on June 22, 2014, 03:36:42 PM

re-cycled biodegradable plastic no dout, it makes you wonder what will happen to our purchases in a coule of years time, brass is another, i've recently had rusty brass plumming fittings and brass padlocks, are our overseas manufacture's mixing materials and keeping the best for 'home' use ?


alan

pure conjecture and speculation with no basis in fact...you have no idea what the plastic is , it's storage conditions etc.  your post is a pure guess :)

I have locos that were made in China by 30 years ago (Mainline 00) and the plastic is still fine, so I'm not expecting my N gauge models to fall apart any time soon.

In fact I can't really think of any plastic bits that have broken apart from gears or fine detail parts that got accidentally broken off. 

My view has always been that there will always be faulty models. Everything we buy has a mortaility rate, its just question of what it is. Yes we have bad build quality but when you consider it the engineering involves and sometimes quite impressed that as many of them work as they do. I can say ive had bad Dapol models and bad Farish models but the worst was a 37408 from back in the Poole days which went back 6 times before i got a good one but that was a rare case. One thing i will say is that the older ones were easier to repair if they did break down. The current ones are far more difficult to get going and its also alot more difficult to get spare parts.

Richard

OK....

Time to wrap this one up.

I know that this was not a good poll ( but a jolly good thread) but the interesting thing for me is that ...

Farish Locos - far more thought they were ok than did not (approx 30% of vote to 5%)
Dapol Locos - almost the same amount of the vote thought they were good and bad (25% good to 22% bad)

Small sample I know!! (64 votes total) but could there be a message here?

Any statisticians out there who thing there is any significance in this or is it just a load of nonsense

Bob Austin

Statistically speaking I would not give this too much weight. You have a small sample size and your sample is self-selecting.

Always remember though that statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is not nearly as interesting as what they conceal.  ;)

i personally will not be grtting another farish steam loco

Quote from: Dave95979 on October 14, 2014, 05:37:30 PM
i personally will not be grtting another farish steam loco

Why's that then Dave - what are your experiences with Farish and Dapol

Bob Austin

I don't have any if the newer tooled Chinese a Farish models (just one or two from China but with the old Poole tooling).

How are the newer steam locos?

Dan

well i am probably the unlucky one its just i don't want to spend over a hundred pound on a loco and the have to fettle it to get it to run rite i bought a fairburn that had a rely bad wobble so i took that back and got another one that wobbled but not to bad so i kept that one then i got a black 5 which i needed to take apart and re do the pickups as half of them were not making contact with the wheel at all
on the other hand i have no trouble with my deltic or 04 shunter
i will give union mills and dapol a try
as i am just starting out in n gauge it is all a bit disheartning felt like giving up before i spend to much on it all

Quote from: Dave95979 on October 14, 2014, 06:17:26 PM
well i am probably the unlucky one its just i don't want to spend over a hundred pound on a loco and the have to fettle it to get it to run rite i bought a fairburn that had a rely bad wobble so i took that back and got another one that wobbled but not to bad so i kept that one then i got a black 5 which i needed to take apart and re do the pickups as half of them were not making contact with the wheel at all
on the other hand i have no trouble with my deltic or 04 shunter
i will give union mills and dapol a try
as i am just starting out in n gauge it is all a bit disheartning felt like giving up before i spend to much on it all

I'm not sure you are unlucky Dave

I've had three brand new Farish steam locos and all have had problems out of the box.

A 4MT had problems with sticking valve gear that eventually broke - replaced under warranty.
A 5MT had a missing coupling - fixed by a very good retailer (Alton Models in Alton Hampshire)
A 4F with noisy motor and poor slow speed running - decided to live with it.

I have a Farish Midland Pullman and Class 108 DMU which were great.

I have had a few Dapol locos - all run fine, but one or two are rather noisy.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread I think locos should run perfectly out of the box or perhaps after the running in period. - This does not always seem to be the case.

I don't have any Union Mills locos but they do seem to have a good reputation for running and reliability. Not so keen on the rather clunky detail though.

Bob Austin

Just as a counterpoint to previous posts I currently have 27 Farish steam locos only one of which was returned for replacement (a 4F that wouldn't budge). I'm well pleased with all of them but over the moon with the latest offerings such as the B1, WD, J39, Fairburn, Jinty and Ivatt Mickey Mouse.
I appreciate some issues were experienced with the Fairburn but my one and only Peco steamer (22xx) was replaced and the replacement is extremely noisy so I'm not bashing Farish - far from it.

For comparison I'd site a mate of mine who runs nothing but Fleischmann, Arnold, Trix and Roco locos. Every one of them ran perfectly out of the box, and has continued to do so while he's had them, and some are getting on for 20 year old now. Of course they are significantly more expensive...

Farish and Dapol have made great leaps forward recently, but when I compare my steamers with his German models they've got some way to go yet.

On the subject of Union Mills locos. Yes they do have a very good reputation, but it's worth noting that Colin avoids outside cylinder locos with complex valve gear. That's the area that seems to cause most problems with Farish or Dapol locos in my experience.

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: Pengi on June 15, 2014, 12:38:10 PMMy answer is that Kato gives the most reliable product on average :thumbsup: - and by a long margin

Apologies for quoting such an old post, but random anecdote: the first N-gauge locomotive I ever purchased was a Kato one (new, ordered and received in Japan). The couplings and guard rails came off at the merest touch, the lights didn't work and the engine was all growly. Being new to this I initially assumed it was either normal or due to my cackhandendness, but evidently it was a dud. Sent it back and the replacement was fine.

Quote from: DCCDave on October 14, 2014, 10:06:31 PM
For comparison I'd site a mate of mine who runs nothing but Fleischmann, Arnold, Trix and Roco locos. Every one of them ran perfectly out of the box, and has continued to do so while he's had them, and some are getting on for 20 year old now. Of course they are significantly more expensive...

Farish and Dapol have made great leaps forward recently, but when I compare my steamers with his German models they've got some way to go yet.

On the subject of Union Mills locos. Yes they do have a very good reputation, but it's worth noting that Colin avoids outside cylinder locos with complex valve gear. That's the area that seems to cause most problems with Farish or Dapol locos in my experience.

Cheers
Dave

Interesting post, if German makers can do it , why can't British makers do it, though they do it in the far east , not sure about German makers. But UM do it , with a restricted range. do one thing and do it
well.

I think we've never had it so good. The models we get now are light years ahead of anything we've had in the past, and certainly at least the match of continental models and I'd contend in a lot of cases better - coreless motors, ultra fine profile wheels, a wealth of separate detail parts and all at a price much less an equivalent sized continental prototype, which often doesn't have these features.

Faults are so often quality control - e.g. poorly centred moulding for axle insulators (= wobbly Fairburns), pickups not bent to correct angle to ensure good wheel contact (Black 5s etc). Both Dapol and Farish have reached a stage of mature designs that use common motors and other components and this is definitely seen in the running.

Dare I say (given I've repaired quite a few in this category) that some complaints too are unwarranted as the locos have been mishandled (be gentle with them folks, take care of them!!!!!!!!) or are running on poor quality trackwork. Some track joins I've seen would make Jonathan Edwards baulk, yet we expect our poor black 5 to deal with them effortlessly  ??? ? It pays huge dividends to go over all turnouts with a fine toothcomb and check for bumps, kinks and conductivity before installing, and planning expansion gaps carefully so that they are staggered and small.

There will always be problems. There will always be failures. There will be some that are just a poor design. It's always a pain if you get a dud, but there are plenty of good ones out there. This is just the nature of things, but I think we're at a time where what is available and it's quality has never been so good  :thumbsup:.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM
Faults are so often quality control - e.g. poorly centred moulding for axle insulators (= wobbly Fairburns), pickups not bent to correct angle to ensure good wheel contact (Black 5s etc). Both Dapol and Farish have reached a stage of mature designs that use common motors and other components and this is definitely seen in the running.

I think you're right Al, and I suspect that a large slice of the additional cost of 'German' locomotives goes towards the cost of QC, it seems to me that the checking rate must be higher for these models to have a lower 'dodgy' on arrival ratio. Be interesting to see some figures to compare (yeah OK I'll dream on)

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: DCCDave on October 15, 2014, 10:26:47 AM
I think you're right Al, and I suspect that a large slice of the additional cost of 'German' locomotives goes towards the cost of QC, it seems to me that the checking rate must be higher for these models to have a lower 'dodgy' on arrival ratio. Be interesting to see some figures to compare (yeah OK I'll dream on)

It will be interesting to see what happens when the first DJM products hit the market - Dave is promising that all models will be checked prior to dispatch - 100% QC? This should certainly mean that he should expect few failures out of the box, and maybe make other manufacturers take note, but we'll see how it pans out.

Cheers,
Alan

I have been avoiding adding anything to this until now...

When I go on a trip, I buy "new" locomotives. I don't care if they are F or D. I'm just impressed with the improved quality over the stuff I began N gauge with.

I'm stock piling 'em to run into Beal!  :thumbsup:

:NGaugersRule:

George

I agree with Dr Al about track work, I've seen some pretty dodgy track work, it really does pay dividends to take time and care with track laying. The days of bunging set track together on the carpet are over, I'm not suggesting that is the norm now but some people do seem have a bit of a train set mentality.

I've also seen some badly treated models and I'm sure some of these are returned to retailers and manufacturers as faulty when in fact they have been mishandled.

My latest purchase is a Farish Standard Class 5 and I think it is superb.

:NGF:

Quote from: DCCDave on October 15, 2014, 10:26:47 AM
I think you're right Al, and I suspect that a large slice of the additional cost of 'German' locomotives goes towards the cost of QC, it seems to me that the checking rate must be higher for these models to have a lower 'dodgy' on arrival ratio. Be interesting to see some figures to compare (yeah OK I'll dream on)

Cheers
Dave

They mostly spend it on building it right in the first place - that's actually a lot cheaper than QA. However they can design to a higher price point, and have a larger market. Many of the models for all their solidity are also IMHO cruder around areas that need to be mechanically strong than some of the UK models.

At the end of the day it mostly comes down to price. You can design cleverly to get the best for the price, but if the price is low the goods can only reach a certain standard, or you have to limit it to specific easy to produce items. Brass gears and solid metal chassis blocks cost real money and there isn't a magic way to make them cheap.

You can today buy a UK outline diesel loco that'll run for ten plus years with nothing more than a spot of oil, will run on crap track and will pick up power where other locos stutter. It's just they cost £500.

I think the standards of locos (and I'm sure steamers within that category) have improved a great deal, but it's possibly the issues of quality control that are the problem. I'm not an owner of much Chinese stock, so I cannot really have a definitive opinion on their overall quality.

That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up. If your brand new car stopped running as soon as you drove it home from the showroom, you wouldn't pop your overalls on and proceed to get your hands dirty, no, you'd call the dealer. So why why why do we put up with it with model railways?

I think Fleischmann still manufacture in Germany. It's one of the core values of German culture and engineering that when they do something, they want to do it well, they want to do it thoroughly. Therefore they keep manufacturing processes in-house, since they know they can then control it and keep on top of any problems.

Also, I wouldn't consider Graham Farish a British company. Isn't it owned by an overseas company? British outline yes, British owned I believe not. Therefore, I don't blame them for shipping everything overseas and closing down the factory - bit like what Kraft did with Cadbury's I think.

Me ... I'll stick to good old Poole "British" N.

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up.

I think many of us are guilty of doing that and therefore manufacturers don't get so many returns.

Swings and roundabout situation - and I don't necessarily condone my route to getting things fixed as the best, but for me it's far more efficient to just fix the simple problems that take minutes; than pack it all up, drive to a post office, send it back, wait for a replacement and potentially find that's the same. I guess because I'm a modeller first and collector second, I'm happy to change things, and that includes mechanical mods or fixes. If I was a pure collector I think I'd return more (or never run it to find it had issues!).

Serious problems do result in my returning them - e.g. 5MT with duff quartering and mis-moulded wheel insulators that wobbled it in a completely un-fixable manner, or Dapol HST with slow running, over-current, overheating motor.

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
Also, I wouldn't consider Graham Farish a British company. Isn't it owned by an overseas company? British outline yes, British owned I believe not.

Entirely true - they are owned now by Bachmann (a US company), so really have no links at all to Britain other than their history. Bachmann in turn were bought by Kader (of Hong Kong) in the late 1980s.

I think this ultimately has been a good thing. The Poole range was starting to get very long in the tooth and one wonders if they really would have had the money to invest on wholesale updating of it - they'd have been forced to sooner or later as tooling became expired and as DCC ready models became more and more desirable, and competitors entered the fray. Indeed I recall reading in 2003 or thereabouts that when Bachmann picked up Poole's first designs of the V2 they thought they were diabolical and scrapped them, completely replacing it. I believe they completely redesigned the class 60 too, and this core design concept has essentially formed the backbone of all the new tool diesels. Having said all that, the only failures of Poole stock I bought brand new back in the day (now a very long time ago!) was split gears.

But, I doubt that the N gauge market would be as bouyant now if things had trundled on as they were - over the time I've modelled N (since 1997) the transformation has been total. In 1997 I was really unsure as to choosing N as the models looked dated even at that time...though they were actually mechanically superior to their OO counterparts at that time. Fortunately it proved a wise choice for many reasons beyond this!  :ngauge:

With DJM coming, I think we may again have a UK owned manufacturer. Albeit the product will be made outwith the UK.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
I think the standards of locos (and I'm sure steamers within that category) have improved a great deal, but it's possibly the issues of quality control that are the problem. I'm not an owner of much Chinese stock, so I cannot really have a definitive opinion on their overall quality.

That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up. If your brand new car stopped running as soon as you drove it home from the showroom, you wouldn't pop your overalls on and proceed to get your hands dirty, no, you'd call the dealer. So why why why do we put up with it with model railways?

I think Fleischmann still manufacture in Germany. It's one of the core values of German culture and engineering that when they do something, they want to do it well, they want to do it thoroughly. Therefore they keep manufacturing processes in-house, since they know they can then control it and keep on top of any problems.

The point is that those compnies who do still manufacture in Germany also charge for it.

Sure you can have better QC, but given that you want no issues on a £100 loco then would you pay for it? Say £150 per loco?

Generally the quality and sophistication of Chinese built stock is light years ahead of Poole-built stock. Sure there are some build/QC problems, but no more do we have generic chassis (eg 37 and 47 sharing the same chassis) etc.

Bachmann Europe (who do research, sales & marketing) is still partly owned by Graham Hubbard IIRC, though obviously the production is done by Kader (who own the majority shares in Bachmann).

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: red_death on October 15, 2014, 03:17:48 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
I think the standards of locos (and I'm sure steamers within that category) have improved a great deal, but it's possibly the issues of quality control that are the problem. I'm not an owner of much Chinese stock, so I cannot really have a definitive opinion on their overall quality.

That said, on the subject of quality control, I think it's unacceptable if you spend 100 quid on a loco and then have to fiddle around with it. I'm guilty myself of having adjusted the pick-ups on a Chinese model I bought (one of the very few I bought) because it wasn't running satisfactorily. If we all just returned the items and refused to accept them unless "running out of the box" then the manufacturers would have to pull their socks up. If your brand new car stopped running as soon as you drove it home from the showroom, you wouldn't pop your overalls on and proceed to get your hands dirty, no, you'd call the dealer. So why why why do we put up with it with model railways?

I think Fleischmann still manufacture in Germany. It's one of the core values of German culture and engineering that when they do something, they want to do it well, they want to do it thoroughly. Therefore they keep manufacturing processes in-house, since they know they can then control it and keep on top of any problems.

The point is that those compnies who do still manufacture in Germany also charge for it.

Sure you can have better QC, but given that you want no issues on a £100 loco then would you pay for it? Say £150 per loco?

Generally the quality and sophistication of Chinese built stock is light years ahead of Poole-built stock. Sure there are some build/QC problems, but no more do we have generic chassis (eg 37 and 47 sharing the same chassis) etc.

Bachmann Europe (who do research, sales & marketing) is still partly owned by Graham Hubbard IIRC, though obviously the production is done by Kader (who own the majority shares in Bachmann).

Cheers, Mike

I'd generally agree with all of that red_death. Question is (and forgive me if I'm going off on a tangent and we can come back onto topic if people think this is going too far off - which I guess it is) it's chicken and egg. Or should I say race to the bottom.

The German products are more expensive, but the population still have the jobs to afford those products. We seem to live in fairyland in thinking "let's ship everything off to China" and sell it back to ourselves. Who are we kidding? Problem is, who's going to be able to afford these things in the future?

The guy who used to work for Graham Farish in Poole can no longer afford a Cadbury's chocolate bar because he's out of a job. The guy who used to work for Cadbury's can no longer collect Graham Farish trains because he's also out of a job. But it's all ok, because the products have become a lot cheaper to produce, so the new owners of these companies are happy. Oh, but wait, there's less people with long term job security who are able to afford these things.

Sorry, I know that's really :offtopicsign: and it's not aimed at your post. Getting back on to thread, I'd agree that the newer models are of a superior quality and possibly (or should that be probably) Graham Farish would not have been able to continue alone. So, we could say that my argument above is rather abstract / academic. I guess it's just I find it sad that we hardly make anything anymore  :'(

Quote from: red_death on October 15, 2014, 03:17:48 PM
The point is that those compnies who do still manufacture in Germany also charge for it.

Sure you can have better QC, but given that you want no issues on a £100 loco then would you pay for it? Say £150 per loco?

It's the key point - interestingly, looking at the Fleischmann homepage a most simple 0-6-0 diesel shunter is £111, ranging up to a large 2-10-0 tender loco which is an eye watering £220.

The simple question then is: would the British market hack that? Frankly, it seems unlikely - especially given we are all so used to paying what we do for models.

By comparison, a Farish 08 shunter is around £60, and a big 2-10-0 steam loco, say a 9F, is around £100. Looking at it that way, we get a big amount for our money....even if there are more cases of dud models as a result.

Neither situation is exactly perfect, butI think we could do a lot worse in terms of both quality and price.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM
I think we've never had it so good. The models we get now are light years ahead of anything we've had in the past, and certainly at least the match of continental models and I'd contend in a lot of cases better - coreless motors, ultra fine profile wheels, a wealth of separate detail parts and all at a price much less an equivalent sized continental prototype, which often doesn't have these features.

Faults are so often quality control - e.g. poorly centred moulding for axle insulators (= wobbly Fairburns), pickups not bent to correct angle to ensure good wheel contact (Black 5s etc). Both Dapol and Farish have reached a stage of mature designs that use common motors and other components and this is definitely seen in the running.

Dare I say (given I've repaired quite a few in this category) that some complaints too are unwarranted as the locos have been mishandled (be gentle with them folks, take care of them!!!!!!!!) or are running on poor quality trackwork. Some track joins I've seen would make Jonathan Edwards baulk, yet we expect our poor black 5 to deal with them effortlessly  ??? ? It pays huge dividends to go over all turnouts with a fine toothcomb and check for bumps, kinks and conductivity before installing, and planning expansion gaps carefully so that they are staggered and small.

There will always be problems. There will always be failures. There will be some that are just a poor design. It's always a pain if you get a dud, but there are plenty of good ones out there. This is just the nature of things, but I think we're at a time where what is available and it's quality has never been so good  :thumbsup:.

Cheers,
Alan

I agree with all that you've said there  :thumbsup: I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

Fleischmann is now days but a brand of ModelEisenbahm Gmbh but is German. Märklin last time I checked were still owned by British vulture-capitalists.

Märklin have certainly produced items in China as well as Germany, and the Chinese built models are also of excellent standard. It's what you pay for it not just where it's made.

Even the stuff made in Germany has seen big process changes because the old ways of producing things didn't make sense wherever you were located.

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM

I agree with all that you've said there  :thumbsup: I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

I agree the range of locos available and the level of detail is improving all the time. However if you buy a loco, however detailed and good looking it is, it cannot be described as 'superb' if it doesn't work properly. That is true whatever the sales price is!

I don't understand why some people are so forgiving about locos they buy, at whatever price, which don't work as they are intended.

If you bought anything else, like an inexpensive car or kettle or top of the range television or radio or any consumer goods you care to think of, at any indicated sales price, then you would expect them to just work wouldn't you? You'd be pretty miffed if they didn't work.

If Loco manufacturers cannot make locos that work for the price they are selling them at then I, for one, would rather pay a bit more to get a model that works out of the box.

I think a big problem at the moment is that there is not enough competition in N gauge loco manufacture for the current manufacturers to worry too much about shipping rubbish. There's nowhere else for us poor customers to go.

Sorry for the rant but a large part of my past career has been in Quality Management and the concept that it is ok for Manufacturers to ship rubbish at any price is totally taboo.

Bob Austin

Quote from: austinbob on October 15, 2014, 06:00:34 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM

I agree with all that you've said there  :thumbsup: I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

I agree the range of locos available and the level of detail is improving all the time. However if you buy a loco, however detailed and good looking it is, it cannot be described as 'superb' if it doesn't work properly. That is true whatever the sales price is!

I don't understand why some people are so forgiving about locos they buy, at whatever price, which don't work as they are intended.

If you bought anything else, like an inexpensive car or kettle or top of the range television or radio or any consumer goods you care to think of, at any indicated sales price, then you would expect them to just work wouldn't you? You'd be pretty miffed if they didn't work.

If Loco manufacturers cannot make locos that work for the price they are selling them at then I, for one, would rather pay a bit more to get a model that works out of the box.

I think a big problem at the moment is that there is not enough competition in N gauge loco manufacture for the current manufacturers to worry too much about shipping rubbish. There's nowhere else for us poor customers to go.

Sorry for the rant but a large part of my past career has been in Quality Management and the concept that it is ok for Manufacturers to ship rubbish at any price is totally taboo.

Bob Austin

Bob

Not a rant in the slightest. Just look at some of my posts if you want to see what's bordering on a rant   ::)

I think you've hit the nail on the head with regards to accepting sub-standard items / making excuses for poor quality. We just wouldn't stand for it with other products. I think competition surely is the reason.

That said, and to be balanced, as I said before, the range and detail has increased tremendously, and most probably the running qualities.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: austinbob on October 15, 2014, 06:00:34 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on October 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM

I agree with all that you've said there  :thumbsup: I also think the locos & rolling stock we can get now is superb to what it was years ago, both in detail & variety. I started getting into N gauge when I was still in school in the late 1980's/ early 1990's & there was a limited choice of locos & rolling stock with very little detail on them compared to todays models. Even prices back then I can remember were expensive to me at the time, new locos were around the £60-70 mark & secondhand were around £30-40, it took me ages to save up for stuff! A mate of mine at the time was into 00 gauge & they had much more choice of items than N gauge.

cheers, Stu.

I agree the range of locos available and the level of detail is improving all the time. However if you buy a loco, however detailed and good looking it is, it cannot be described as 'superb' if it doesn't work properly. That is true whatever the sales price is!

I don't understand why some people are so forgiving about locos they buy, at whatever price, which don't work as they are intended.

If you bought anything else, like an inexpensive car or kettle or top of the range television or radio or any consumer goods you care to think of, at any indicated sales price, then you would expect them to just work wouldn't you? You'd be pretty miffed if they didn't work.

If Loco manufacturers cannot make locos that work for the price they are selling them at then I, for one, would rather pay a bit more to get a model that works out of the box.

I think a big problem at the moment is that there is not enough competition in N gauge loco manufacture for the current manufacturers to worry too much about shipping rubbish. There's nowhere else for us poor customers to go.

Sorry for the rant but a large part of my past career has been in Quality Management and the concept that it is ok for Manufacturers to ship rubbish at any price is totally taboo.

Bob Austin

Maybe I've been lucky but I've only ever had 2 or 3 bad locos (both Farish & Dapol) which I've sent back to where I bought them for replacement, & thats out of a total of around 50 locos which I now have in my collection, both Dapol & new Farish. The way I see it, if its faulty then send it back for replacement or a refund. Poole Farish locos wern't without their problems in their time either I found with split gears & noisy, poor running.

cheers, Stu.

I was guilty of using the word 'superb' to describe a loco  :(   My latest loco in my opinion is superb but loco buying still a bit of a lottery due to almost non existent QC. The manufacturers use us as quality controllers.

My other recent purchases have been two Tornados, one perfect from the start, one a wobbler because of glue on the tender wheels (easily removed once I spotted it) and a 4MT that needed hours of running in.

As others have said good design and quality control cost money.

Stu

I'm honestly torn between the two sides of the argument. On the one hand I feel the points I've posted above are valid, yet on the other, I see your point about Poole Farish not being without its faults and you having 3/50 faulty locos (still a lot mind) and so I think I'm going to sit on the fence from now on, with an acceptance that there are valid arguments on both sides  :hmmm:

Still would like to see the stuff made in the UK though ... but hey ho, hum hum ...  :worried:

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 06:32:50 PM
Stu

I'm honestly torn between the two sides of the argument. On the one hand I feel the points I've posted above are valid, yet on the other, I see your point about Poole Farish not being without its faults and you having 3/50 faulty locos (still a lot mind) and so I think I'm going to sit on the fence from now on, with an acceptance that there are valid arguments on both sides  :hmmm:

Still would like to see the stuff made in the UK though ... but hey ho, hum hum ...  :worried:

Yes I can see what your saying, there is good & bad on both sides I think  :thumbsup:

cheers, Stu.

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 06:23:26 PM
I think competition surely is the reason.

Which is where the N gauge market differs completely from others.

There simply isn't the size of market for direct competition, i.e. the same model from different manufacturers. We've seen this with the B1s, where the Farish one appeared to sell well, and the Dapol ones are still knocking about various retailers, and have been heavily discounted to shift them. equally, Bachmann scrapping plans for a 9F when Dapol produced one - they clearly believed there was just not room out there for two competing models, even if theirs is better.

The other difference is that these items are still at least partly hand made - unlike cars or large production items that folk cite, more hands on detail work is still required (and mechanising this would cost a lot) - look at the pics out there of Kader factory with many many folks assembling all our models. I'm sure if we had 1000 sets of black 5 pickups to assemble we might not get them all right.

This isn't an excuse, but just an observation that the means of manufacture and the market they serve are very different to many others.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 06:23:26 PM
I think you've hit the nail on the head with regards to accepting sub-standard items / making excuses for poor quality. We just wouldn't stand for it with other products. I think competition surely is the reason.

It's my view that not only with model locos but across consumer products of all kinds we British struggle to differentiate between 'cheap' and 'value for money'. I've worked in all kinds of sectors where 'cheap' wins, remember that old show called 'Never mind the quality feel the width'.

Do you remember British Leyland cars, which were generally a heap of .... and yet millions of them sold until something at a similar price point came along which were more reliable, better built and better equipped. Buyers in the UK had always had the option to buy more expensive cars (BMWs, Mercs and the like) but millions bought British because they were cheap and were good enough. Seems to me that the tenor of this thread is that us modellers are slowly arriving at the 'not good enough' view.

Like Dr Al, I think that if Dave Jones can deliver what he's promised then the others will have to follow suit or risk loosing market share. Dave has yet to deliver anything so we'll have to wait and see but at least he's openly recognised and is looking to address the problem. More power to his elbow!

Cheers
Dave

 

Not enough BR Blue stuff,

Dapol did class 86's in liveries that a lot people spat at? now they are being sold cheap everywhere.

Farish/Bachmann had a spate of doing 1 off liveries for a while, in how many years was the last decent BR blue 31 released? Sista Dora ?????????????

But at least Lima decided to give it up with the king kong sized N Gauge locos.

Everyone is asking Gareth and Andrew for resprays for periods from 1960's to 1980's

Dapol have got it right with the westerns class 22s 56s etc

I saw a photo of a new farish 31 in magazine (railway modeller iI think) last December and it still is not out yet?

Kids ask for stuff for Xmas and have to be let down because it is not ready. It would be better for them to announce stuff a month before it hits the shelves and that way, no one gets let down or keep posting on forums about delays.

Mark

Quote from: DCCDave on October 15, 2014, 07:26:21 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 06:23:26 PM
I think you've hit the nail on the head with regards to accepting sub-standard items / making excuses for poor quality. We just wouldn't stand for it with other products. I think competition surely is the reason.

It's my view that not only with model locos but across consumer products of all kinds we British struggle to differentiate between 'cheap' and 'value for money'. I've worked in all kinds of sectors where 'cheap' wins, remember that old show called 'Never mind the quality feel the width'.

Do you remember British Leyland cars, which were generally a heap of .... and yet millions of them sold until something at a similar price point came along which were more reliable, better built and better equipped. Buyers in the UK had always had the option to buy more expensive cars (BMWs, Mercs and the like) but millions bought British because they were cheap and were good enough. Seems to me that the tenor of this thread is that us modellers are slowly arriving at the 'not good enough' view.

Like Dr Al, I think that if Dave Jones can deliver what he's promised then the others will have to follow suit or risk loosing market share. Dave has yet to deliver anything so we'll have to wait and see but at least he's openly recognised and is looking to address the problem. More power to his elbow!

Cheers
Dave

Funny you should mention British Leyland Dave - that's exactly who I was thinking of when I went off on my diatribe about everything being "offshored". Sadly we need to up our game in so many areas. Whilst I'm unashamedly patriotic and like to buy home grown products, they at least have to do what they said they'd do on the tin ... sadly history is littered with examples of the opposite!

Dan

Quote from: mark100 on October 15, 2014, 07:30:59 PM
Kids ask for stuff for Xmas and have to be let down because it is not ready. It would be better for them to announce stuff a month before it hits the shelves and that way, no one gets let down or keep posting on forums about delays.

Mark

Mark

I think you mean dads keep asking for stuff and have to be let down ...  :P

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 07:31:59 PM
have to do what they said they'd do on the tin ... sadly history is littered with examples of the opposite!

Dan

We may have had British Leyland ("all the parts falling off this car are of the finest British manufacture") but we also built Landrovers: Union Mills are British and in the finest Landrover tradition IMHO. Simple, reliable, solid.



Alan

We still do build Land Rovers Alan, unfortunately we don't own the means of production anymore though.

Must admit though, they're doing pretty well these days, even if they are now in foreign hands.

Dan

this may be a stupid question but how do you tell if you are byeing a pool loco rather than the newer ones ? i know i am unhappy with my steamers but my deltic and 04 shunter i cant fault at all well the shunter does wobble a bit but i can live with that as it spends all the time moving realy slowly

Quote from: Dave95979 on October 16, 2014, 07:33:15 AM
this may be a stupid question but how do you tell if you are byeing a pool loco rather than the newer ones ?

Poole locos have silver deep flanged wheels, come in card boxes.

Newer locos can still be of the Poole design, but will come in Bachmann Farish plastic boxes with card outers. They have finer profile wheels and better quality printing and finishing, but otherwise the chassis are essentially the same for the steam, the diesels used interim improved chassis design with a different motor. Any model available in Poole days also came out from Bachmann in this way, apart from the LMS 4P and 101 DMU as both had tooling close to life expired.

HTH,
Alan

Poole locos have the words 'Made in Britain' printed on the chassis baseplate, Bachmann Farish have the words 'Made in China' printed on the baseplate. The newer locos have chemically darkened wheels and the newest ones are DCC ready.

If you are buying off eBay it's best to check with the seller as to which type he is selling.

Quote from: silly moo on October 16, 2014, 09:14:09 AM
Poole locos have the words 'Made in Britain' printed on the chassis baseplate, Bachmann Farish have the words 'Made in China' printed on the baseplate.

As long as they haven't had parts swapped over....  ;)

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on October 15, 2014, 07:34:42 PM

Quote from: mark100 on October 15, 2014, 07:30:59 PM
Kids ask for stuff for Xmas and have to be let down because it is not ready. It would be better for them to announce stuff a month before it hits the shelves and that way, no one gets let down or keep posting on forums about delays.

Mark

Mark

I think you mean dads keep asking for stuff and have to be let down ...  :P

I think my Wife would Divorce me if I started up another hobby, Its expensive as it is with our Son wanting everything he sees on here and eBay and our Daughters are worse for wanting stuff, although they have not asked for railway items yet! We have a Dapol Class 50 on order from Hattons and are hoping we get this before Xmas otherwise we will have to get him something else and the class 50 will then become a birthday present.

Why announce stuff then make people wait for over a year for it to arrive.

If it is to pre-warn the rival company that you are releasing a specific item then its stupid, it would be better if Dapol and Farish did release the same loco classes as long as they looked identical, (the class 66s from both companies look different because of the way the chassis is housed) but it would give more options on running numbers and enable those who wanted a large fleet to build one up quicker.

It would also be better if nothing was announced until it was ready for sale, then they could put up on the website "COMING NEXT MONTH" it would prevent a lot of stress for a lot of people on here, who don't have the patience to wait for things and who get angry at the slightest thing.

:thankyousign:  Mark

Mark

Agree with you. Unfortunately I think it's to do with marketing ... put it out there, build anticipation, pent up the demand and then bring it to market. I don't follow the new releases but I "feel your pain brother!"

Dave95979, as to your question re Poole (UK) vs Chinese production, it's not a silly question at all. You'll get to know the models and their differences over time (if you're really into Farish n) and I think the posts you've received pretty much sum up what to look for.

One note if caution, however, is that some of the older (UK) models have had their wheels changed over to the Chinese wheels. Therefore you could be fooled into thinking it's a UK model when in fact it's a Chinese model. It's unlikely to be the other way around though (UK wheels on a Chinese chassis).

A few of the UK models at the very end had blackened wheels, but I think the numbers are insignificant in terms of you having to worry about it. I find the advice in the boxes (card vs square hard plastic) is a good starting point.

Quote from: silly moo on October 16, 2014, 09:14:09 AM
Poole locos have the words 'Made in Britain' printed on the chassis baseplate, Bachmann Farish have the words 'Made in China' printed on the baseplate.

I want to cry ...  :'(

Quote from: DesertHound on October 16, 2014, 01:20:18 PM
A few of the UK models at the very end had blackened wheels, but I think the numbers are insignificant in terms of you having to worry about it. I find the advice in the boxes (card vs square hard plastic) is a good starting point.

These are highly distinct though, as they are the old Poole Pizza cutters that are blackened. These aren't the same as the later chinese production which had completely retooled wheels of different profile, steel axles instead of brass.

Incidentally, the blackened Poole ones are pretty rare on some locos, so worth holding onto if you're a collector.

Cheers,
Alan

Well, I had a quiet afternoon so I thought I would test my fleet and make sure that all was well with their motors and lights.

The fleet comprises
6 DMU Dapol 2 Farish 4
3 HST all Dapol
2 DVT Dapol
38 loco's 18 Farish 20 Dapol.

I sat and tested all of them because they have been stored for the last 18 months due to a house move. Most have hardly been used and all are in mint condition.

These are the results:
No light failures at all..
Running failures=2
I had a quick look at the failures and found that both the class 47 and 60 by Farish have split gears.
So that is a failure rate of 9% for Farish and 0% for Dapol.

So you could say I'm not very impressed with Farish especially after all the Dapol "knockers" here have said.

Cheers
Mark

Quote from: scruff on October 19, 2014, 05:30:39 PM
I had a quick look at the failures and found that both the class 47 and 60 by Farish have split gears.

This seems to be getting common particularly on the new tool class 47s - pulled one of mine out last week and heard the characteristic clunking of a gear on the way out.

Cheers,
Alan

Are they "failure" locos UK or Chinese Farish Scruff?

Quote from: mark100 on October 16, 2014, 12:46:21 PM
If it is to pre-warn the rival company that you are releasing a specific item then its stupid, it would be better if Dapol and Farish did release the same loco classes as long as they looked identical

The market isn't big enough for that in the UK. If it kept happening I imagine one or both would simply go under.

Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on October 19, 2014, 05:44:21 PM
This seems to be getting common particularly on the new tool class 47s - pulled one of mine out last week and heard the characteristic clunking of a gear on the way out.

I wonder if there is enough demand for and after-market manufacturer to offer replacement brass gears? Are Farish's modern diesels sufficient similar under the hood for this t work or would new gears have to be tooled for each class?

Quote from: Karhedron on October 20, 2014, 08:56:45 AM
I wonder if there is enough demand for and after-market manufacturer to offer replacement brass gears? Are Farish's modern diesels sufficient similar under the hood for this t work or would new gears have to be tooled for each class?

All the gears on the axles that I've seen split (37,47s) are the same as the original Farish - 16 tooth, so have been replaceable with generic spares. Note, that the wheelsets aren't the same so can't be replaced with the generic spares (these spares being too small diameter).

Given that the number of splits on new tool stock seems small (so far), I don't know that there'd be a great market yet for them.

It is concerning that some splits are occurring on steam tender drives too - had a B1 with one gone (fortunately it was on the 'spare' wheelset in the bits bag....).

Cheers,
Alan

The loco's that failed are both china built.

Class 60 60078 mainline blue 371-351 centre axle on one bogie (about 2 hours running done)
and
Class 47 47474 parcels red 372-242 coupling end axle on one bogie (loco only ever test run)

Anyone know where I can purchase replacement wheelsets? I found BRlines and Peters spares don't have the correct wheelsets as far as I can tell.

cheers
Mark

Quote from: scruff on October 20, 2014, 10:04:34 AM
Anyone know where I can purchase replacement wheelsets? I found BRlines and Peters spares don't have the correct wheelsets as far as I can tell.

If they are still under warranty Bachmann should supply these FOC.

Otherwise Bachmann spares dept is first call, or beyond that BR Lines. You can't use the generic spare Farish wheelsets as the locos now all have specific diameter wheelsets appropriate to their given prototype. You can still replace the gears on the original wheels as they are the standard 16 tooth type.

HTH,
Alan