How bad, really, are Dapol and Farish

Started by austinbob, June 14, 2014, 08:21:41 PM

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DesertHound

Quote from: silly moo on June 19, 2014, 04:11:34 PM
I wonder what percentage of N Gauge modellers are members of the N Gauge Society and how many society members would like to have more spares available. It might be worthwhile for the society to do a survey and if the large majority of members do want spares to ask Farish again.

If they do not want to supply parts then they leave the market open for 'pirate' parts which with the advent of 3D printing are becoming easier to make.

Perhaps there's a business opportunity for someone out there.

I love that one silky moo - "pirate parts"  :smiley-laughing: oh you make us sound like such rebels  8)

You make a good point though. I would definitely be interested in exploring "pirate parts" if I cannot get originals from the manufacturer. Question is, would I be doing anything piratical?  :D no, seriously, would I be doing anything illegal. Could I be "a guest of Her Majesty" for such a crime as producing a steam bearing for the Poole chassis?

I'm very happy buying spares from BR Lines and I think Bob does us all a service. However, I feel Bob is an exception, and there is (and possibly won't be) another person like him in the future. I want to keep my Poole built fleet going for as long as I live! I'm not sure I would have the confidence to say the same thing about the Chinese models.

Cheers

Dan

PS: I'd be interested in exploring "parts production".
Visit www.thefarishshed.com for all things Poole Farish and have the confidence to look under the bonnet of your locos!

Roy L S

Quote from: DesertHound on June 19, 2014, 06:44:20 PM
]


Good point Karhedron about the lack if spares from Bachmann. I brought this up a few pages ago, but was informed that you can get parts from them. I'm now not sure what the truth is on this one. I don't really have many Bachmann models so I cannot really say. However, if it is true, then they have just lost me as a customer for powered locomotives, since my hobby is maintaining my own locos. I'm just not interested in a toy that, if it breaks, either has to be sent back or thrown in the bin.

Can anyone give us an answer on this from experience. And preferable we're talking parts beyond just split gears.

If it's true that parts are hard to come by then Bachmann probably made the decision that they don't want people repairing old locos, since it cannibalises new sales. Perhaps they are right from that perspective, but from my perspective I am now buying a completely different kind of product that doesn't meet my hobby needs. This is where the likes of others (perhaps DJM) step in.



Hi Dan

Well all I can say is that whatever parts I have requested from Bachmann have been supplied. Yes ironically a wheelset for a split gear on a 108 but also three different types of drawbar too including one for an Ivatt.

Each loco from Bachmann has an exploded diagram and is capable of being dismantled for repair, I do not think there is anything in the designs that makes them intended as throw-away items. The same couldn't be said for some early Dapol, but it certainly appeard the case with more recent stuff.

Regards

Roy

gc4946

Due to their irregular batch production, both Bachmann and Dapol probably don't hold many spares after taking into account faulty and non-working returns from shops.

Once they've successfully repaired as many faulty returns as possible, they often resell these through their own trade stands at shows they attend. After that there's not many spares left over for sale for any other repairs.

My solution isn't ideal but I've duplicated several loco classes that are in current production (e.g. Dapol 153, A1 Pacific) if they're essential for my collection so in the long term I can raid them for spares.


"I believe in positive, timely solutions, not vague, future promises"

DesertHound

Sorry guys, I jumped the gun a bit there. I replied to an earlier post without reading the thread to the end. I see a few examples of people getting spares from Bachmann, so fair play on that one.

That said, the models are becoming more bespoke / tailored (whatever you want to call it) for both better and worse. Roy L S I do note your comments on the virtues of the new products. However, for someone like me (I might be the minority, maybe the only one!) I don't get the impression there is the "durability of spares" in that you can swap parts around, common parts fit various chassis etc etc etc. a bit like lego changing the compatibility of their building blocks every year.

I know the issue cuts both ways, however, in that some people (most I would assume) value accuracy over commonality of parts.

Cheers, really enjoying this thread!

Dan
Visit www.thefarishshed.com for all things Poole Farish and have the confidence to look under the bonnet of your locos!

silly moo

I'm still curious about how big the market for spares is. I'm trying to think of how many spares I've needed for my 40 odd locos which I've collected and run over the last twenty years.

I have bought brushes, springs and traction tyres. I needed to replace valve gear on a Jubilee and got Bob from BR Lines to repair a HST. I seem to have been incredibly lucky because that's all I've needed so far.

I have very few diesels so I haven't had split gears.

I've no idea if I'm average or not but I haven't spent a fortune on spares.

I think gc4946 is absolutely right about the effect batch production is having on the availability of spares and that finding spares for the latest locos with their sophisticated detailing, say ten years down the line is going to be difficult.



mr bachmann

just a thought, has any one given a thought to the modern plastic's use on the models, will in a couple of years become de-gradable?, Dapol will tell you that they use (re-use umpteen times) re-cycled plastic for there ex Airfix kits, just look back to the old Tri-ang models of the early 1950's when they go 'bannana' in shape.

I've just opened a cupboard to find where some carrier bags were storred, a heap of plastic confetti.

alan

Karhedron

Just to clarify for those who have just joined the thread, the issue is not that Farish will not supply spares at all. If something is broken, they will do their best to fix it (within reason and warranty).

What they will not do is allow runs of spare parts. The example in question was the NGS trying to commission a bulk run of SR bogies at the same time as the QM Brake van.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on September 29, 2015, 11:28:46 AM
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Zakalwe

Quote from: Karhedron on June 19, 2014, 03:19:26 PM

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us.


So we accept any old tat? 

No.   If Dapol and Farish fail to provide quality products some may accept it, I wouldn't.  I didn't model n 20 years ago because it was rubbish quality with hideous compromises, i would hate to go back to that and doubt we will.

But the world has changed, the era of cheap manufacturing is over for low volume products.   We will have to accept higher prices: if the quality goes up i will be happy to pay (although for less actual products)
"I just think people overvalue argument because they like to hear themselves talk."

Newportnobby

Quote from: gc4946 on June 19, 2014, 07:03:44 PM


My solution isn't ideal but I've duplicated several loco classes that are in current production (e.g. Dapol 153, A1 Pacific) if they're essential for my collection so in the long term I can raid them for spares.

That's not a solution in my mind :no:
At some point in the future it could mean you have paid £200+ for one decent running A1 due to lack of spares from the manufacturer :goggleeyes:

gc4946

I've got hold of used locos from various sources or disposed of some of my 'orribly 'oversized stock to afford duplicates, but I concede not everyone's fortunate in that respect.
My Dapol FGW 153, wanted for my collection, was bought used, but damaged with several missing parts was only restored by robbing parts off one of my other 153s because several key spares such as bogies weren't available separately :hmmm:

On balance I'd rather have plenty of spares backup at the manufacturers, or selected spares agents in the first place.
After all I've no idea how long today's motors, gears or electronics will last... :hmmm:
... or if one of my prized locos is involved in a one-in-a-million freak accident and the bodywork is damaged beyond reasonable repair.





"I believe in positive, timely solutions, not vague, future promises"

DesertHound

Quote from: silly moo on June 19, 2014, 07:16:24 PM
I'm still curious about how big the market for spares is. I'm trying to think of how many spares I've needed for my 40 odd locos which I've collected and run over the last twenty years.

I have bought brushes, springs and traction tyres. I needed to replace valve gear on a Jubilee and got Bob from BR Lines to repair a HST. I seem to have been incredibly lucky because that's all I've needed so far.

I have very few diesels so I haven't had split gears.

I've no idea if I'm average or not but I haven't spent a fortune on spares.

I think gc4946 is absolutely right about the effect batch production is having on the availability of spares and that finding spares for the latest locos with their sophisticated detailing, say ten years down the line is going to be difficult.

I think you are probably like most collectors silly moo in their spares requirement - the odd part here and there. Perhaps that is why you don't see many spares available (but for manufacturers purposefully not to make them available, re the NGS situation - that's not on in my book).

That's fine for most collectors and probably how I would have remained (I had a rebuilt Merchant Navy sent off for repair as a kid, and that's about it until recently, when I became interested in servicing my locos), but some people like rebuilding non-runners, bringing existing models up to the highest spec they can by stripping them down for a good clean. Parts invariable spring off into the ether, or get broken from clumsy hands in the process, and for me, well, that's my hobby just as much as running trains. I find it immensely enjoyable turning a non-runner into a runner. I have a stock of 50-60 locos that were stored for 15 years and I've only just started getting the first few back to top running order.

Now, I know thise is a niche. I don't expect parts will be made forever. I doubt you can buy dublo parts from Hornby anymore. I know for most people they want to buy a loco and have it work. But, where do people draw the line in buying locos? Do we just buy buy buy, every new release, until we have a gazillion of them (a bit like the way mobile phones have gone crazy - a new one every six months for kids these days), or do we enjoy what we have and look after it through care and makntenance? Clearly I know what the manufacturers would prefer!

I really am interested in exploring the possibility of having parts made. Perhaps it depends upon the parts in question, but I'm not sure how you could be hauled before a court for 3D printing a gear or bearing. Nobody has a patent on the wheel do they?

At present I'm fully supportive of Bob at BR Lines and will continue to be so. As to Bachmann, I haven't used them for parts.

Dan
Visit www.thefarishshed.com for all things Poole Farish and have the confidence to look under the bonnet of your locos!

austinbob

Quote from: Zakalwe on June 19, 2014, 08:25:14 PM
Quote from: Karhedron on June 19, 2014, 03:19:26 PM

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us.


So we accept any old tat? 

No.   If Dapol and Farish fail to provide quality products some may accept it, I wouldn't.  I didn't model n 20 years ago because it was rubbish quality with hideous compromises, i would hate to go back to that and doubt we will.

But the world has changed, the era of cheap manufacturing is over for low volume products.   We will have to accept higher prices: if the quality goes up i will be happy to pay (although for less actual products)

Zakalwe

Absolutely spot on. I agree 100%

I am committed to n gauge now - I've bought a load of stuff already but lets have models that work properly and reliably with no fuss even if it costs more.

Bob Austin
Size matters - especially if you don't have a lot of space - and N gauge is the answer!

Bob Austin

belstone

Just to throw something else into the mix - Fleischmann.  Their products look good, well detailed, have a good reputation for reliability and as far as I can tell they are all made in Germany.  Spares availability appears good.  So how come they haven't gone bust yet?

Karhedron

Fleishmann seem to cost 2-3 times as much as an equivelent UK model. For example, their DB BR52 2-10-0 steam loco retails at over £300 in the UK (maybe cheaper in Germany but probably not by that much). Dapol's 9F 2-10-0 can be picked up for well under £100.

I think that having invested £300+ in a loco, the Germans (rightly) expect it to run like a Swiss watch and last long enough to pass on to their grandchildren. Several manufacturers have commented that British modellers are very price sensitive. I remember that the Ixion Manor was the first loco to hit the £100 barrier and caused mumblings at the time for it. Simmilarly the Dapol Gresley coaches were deemed by many to be rather too pricey.

In a sense, we get what we pay for. I would like better and more reliabl models but I am not sure I would pay Fleischmann prices for them. Germany clearly has a market segment willing to pay a significant price premium for top-of-the-line models and this business model works for Fleishmann.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on September 29, 2015, 11:28:46 AM
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Adam1701D

Because the German model railway market is much bigger than in the UK and their models cost around double of those in the UK.

Their models are very nice but not a great deal superior to the best in UK N, such as DP1 or the Fairburn.
Best Regards,
Adam Warr
Peterborough, UK

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