How bad, really, are Dapol and Farish

[DJM Dave]

Perhaps Dave Jones would be worth approaching? The cost of tooling up a completely new chassis might be prohibitive but he is doing an N gauge J94 with other locos due to be announced next month.

Unlike Farish, he might be willing/able to produce modest runs of spare chassis. Just a thought.

Hi Matt,

It's my stated aim to, with each release of model, have a complete set of spares available to purchase from launch.
A schematic of parts, numbered and possibly with prices ( although with changes in China this last one might be problematic) will be included in every box, plus on my web site.
Customers will be able to order any part, and even chassis on their own, directly from my web site, or snail mail, for use as they see fit.

Hope this helps?
Cheers
Dave

[Karhedron]

Customers will be able to order any part, and even chassis on their own, directly from my web site, or snail mail, for use as they see fit.

Thanks for the input Dave. I suspect that proffessionally produced chassis that can be purchased independently will be far better for kit building than us trying to put something together ourselves in our spare time.

Now, what shared a similar wheelbase to a J94? 

[austinbob]

The main problem is they do not make anything in house, they rely on subcontractors on the other side of the world, with the problems of vastly different time zones and a huge language barrier both internationally, internally and a different work and business ethic.
In my opinion this is the root of most of the problems:
It takes a long time to build up a good reputation, this can be lost overnight by an indifferent sub contractor.

Geoff

Good point Geoff

But.. If they had proper Quality Assurance measures in place to evaluate and monitor their suppliers then maybe they could improve upon the quality from their subcontractors.

That's not to say that they don't already have such systems in place but maybe working down to a cost is limiting who they can take on as subcontractors.

Maybe, as you suggest, they could do more work in the UK. - Doesn't stop the potential for using bad UK subcontractors though.

As I've said somewhere else in this thread, I would rather pay a bit more knowing that I'm going to receive a fully working, no need to fiddle about with, reliable model..

Bob Austin

[MikeDunn]

they are, in N at least, SOLELY in the market of supplying fully finished RTR items to everyone else.

Then maybe it's time for the NGS to start playing hardball with them ...  They want assistance on anything, fine - then they relax this stupid attitude, else sorry not this time.

And the NGS starts making public overtures to the other players in the field ...

When the mfr starts telling their clients what they can have, the client ain't the one in charge regardless of the fact that they have the money & award the contract ...

[Karhedron]

The NGS's purchases from major manufacturers is fairly modest at 1 RTR project per year and some spare parts where possible. Also the NGS already splits its commissions between Farish and Dapol. Simply put, I don't think Farish would lose any sleep if the NGS walked away.

Farish do not want the modest business and benefits that associating with NGS brings badly enough to change the way they work. They are happy to work with the NGS as long as it is on their own terms.

[Ben A]

they are, in N at least, SOLELY in the market of supplying fully finished RTR items to everyone else.

Then maybe it's time for the NGS to start playing hardball with them ...  They want assistance on anything, fine - then they relax this stupid attitude, else sorry not this time.

And the NGS starts making public overtures to the other players in the field ...

When the mfr starts telling their clients what they can have, the client ain't the one in charge regardless of the fact that they have the money & award the contract ...

Hi Mike

You're right, the NGS is certainly *not* in charge when it comes to negotiations with Farish, or Dapol come to that.

But we're talking about model trains here.  The NGS committee members and officers are all volunteers, and like most modellers like to enjoy a stress-free and relaxing hobby.  Our work with the NGS isn't always stress-free, but I think I speak for all or most of the officers and committee members when I say that we consider such pressures worth it for the pleasure we get from helping in our own small way to promote N, grow the hobby and provide NGS members with items they would otherwise probably not have.

Many of those who work at Farish (and Dapol, and elsewhere) are also our friends.  I have no intention of "playing hardball" and if that is unnacceptable to the membership then I would be the first (but probably not the last) to step aside.

cheers

Ben A.
(NGS VP)

[MikeDunn]

Sorry if this upsets you, Ben, but this sounds like the way the Dapol Club or Bachmann Club will react to such comments, not how what is supposed to be an independent Club should be acting ...

The NGS is the customer.  If the supplier wants to walk all over the customer and if the customer lets this happen - they're mugs ...

Would you treat a friend the way your "friends" are apparently (from your own words) treating you / the NGS ?

[Karhedron]

I think that the point you are missing is that the NGS is not a big customer. We do not have significant commercial clout and Farish would not really notice or care if we walked away.

So far the NGS has commisioned 2 items of rolling stock (not sure if there have been some reliveries as well or not). Plenty of shops are probably bigger customers. The only difference is that the NGS buys a large quantity of a few specially comisioned models rather than a handful from across the range. Like any other Farish customers, we are free to accept their standard Ts&Cs or take our business elsewhere.

Your comments about "playing hardball" seem to assume that the NGS is negotiating from a position of strength but the simple fact is that we are not. We are a relatively small customer in financial terms and Farish are certainly not under any sort of financial obligation to accomodate us.

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us. Without Farish and Dapol, there would not be a significant N gauge scene for the society to support. Farish gets some benefits from its relationship from the NGS in terms of having a single point of contact who speak for a significant proportion of their customers. But that is not the same as saying that we have leverage. If the NGS started to try and throw its weight around, Farish would probably simply walk away and we would lose a valuable line of communication for expressing the interests of the members.

Farish's refusal to deal in spares (even for commisioned models) is illogical and exasperating but it is clear they are not going to change and it is not worth wasting the raport we have with them on a hissy fit.

[MikeDunn]

Well, with Dave coming on-board as a manufacturer, the pool of suppliers is enlarging & I would hope that the NGS would be prepared to step away from "poor" suppliers in favour of those ready & willing to fulfil the customer requirement, instead of accepting being told "it's my ball, so tough".

[silly moo]

I wonder what percentage of N Gauge modellers are members of the N Gauge Society and how many society members would like to have more spares available. It might be worthwhile for the society to do a survey and if the large majority of members do want spares to ask Farish again.

If they do not want to supply parts then they leave the market open for 'pirate' parts which with the advent of 3D printing are becoming easier to make.

Perhaps there's a business opportunity for someone out there.

[Roy L S]

I guess it may depend what spares and how many.

Whenever I have had the need to ask for something (may even have said so earlier in this topic) I have contacted Bachmann via the website, specifying what I require, been billed via Paypal and got the items in a matter of a few days.

I do not doubt that they have a small stock of spares for repairs etc but not sufficient to make a fully fledged business out of it and clearly they do not want to either.

I take a different view to the one expressed above. My take is that it is their business and down to them what they supply and to whom. We may prefer it to be different but surely it is not the job of "customers" who may think they know better to try to dictate. I am thinking that to stay in business they do know their market pretty well and maybe it is just too insignificant to be worth the investment in time and resources.

It must also be remembered as regards "back-shoring" to the UK that the parent company Kader is Chinese so that just isn't going to happen.

Roy

[silly moo]

Re my previous post, I have no idea how many modellers have a need for extra spares but I suspect not that many.

I agree that it is their (Farish's) business and it's up to them how to run it but if there IS a great demand for spares then maybe there is a business opportunity for someone to make replica parts, I'm not sure how legal that would be though.

I'm very pleased to hear that DJM will have a full range of spares.

[Ben A]

Sorry if this upsets you, Ben, but this sounds like the way the Dapol Club or Bachmann Club will react to such comments, not how what is supposed to be an independent Club should be acting ...

The NGS is the customer.  If the supplier wants to walk all over the customer and if the customer lets this happen - they're mugs ...

Would you treat a friend the way your "friends" are apparently (from your own words) treating you / the NGS ?

Hello Mike,

No need to apologise, I am not at all upset and in my view the real "mug" would be the person whose bluff is called, and who is revealed to be holding a dead man's hand.

Your analysis is, I would argue, flawed because dealing with a manufacturer is not the same as walking into a shop to buy something, and in this market the customer is not always right.

Let me explain:

Bachmann/Farish do not normally accept commissions from anyone without a retail premises.  If you were to contact them tomorrow and offer to pay for a limited run model that you would sell from your garage via the web they would refuse; their view is that their most important customers are the retail trade, and they need to keep them onside.

Because of the good working relationship we have very carefully built up - call it friendship, or perhaps respect if you like - they are prepared to make an exception for the NGS because, among other reasons, we are commissioning items that would not otherwise be made in N, and because they appreciate that with them we are working to grow the scale, which ultimately benefits their retailers too.

So no one is walking over the NGS, and no one is treating anyone like a mug.  No one is spitting the dummy or stamping their foot because they can't get exactly what they want when they want it.  It's a mutually professional relationship handled in a pragmatic and courteous manner which benefits, we believe, NGS members and N Gauge as a whole.

And as has been said, if it's a genuine spare you need to replace a defective part then they will supply this if they can.

cheers

Ben A.
(NGS VP)

[Agrippa]

A clear and concise summing up.

[DesertHound]

To be honest, we need the manufacturers more than they need us.

Farish's refusal to deal in spares (even for commisioned models) is illogical and exasperating but it is clear they are not going to change and it is not worth wasting the raport we have with them on a hissy fit.

Wow, this debate has certainly moved on somewhat since I checked yesterday, all good stuff!

I don't buy that one, that we need them more than they need us. If that were the case, then the manufacturers wouldn't exist. Like someone else pointed out, they are not doing us a favour, they are not a charity to the model railway enthusiast. They are there to make money, and money only. Whoever invested the capital in the likes of Bachmann et al did so to make a return, not primarily for the love of trains. I would say THEY NEED US just as much as we need them - it has to be a balance otherwise the product wouldn't exist.

I do caveat the above however, by saying that a lot of companies ARE ORIGINALLY set up by the love of the hobby, but are later bought out for entirely profit making reasons. I think Graham Farish have to be careful in this respect as if they want to become a "toymaker" and only supply throw-away models, that's fine, but it's a different market to the one we are in and the likes of DJM (excellent concept DJM - as someone who likes to hold my own spares, I'm converted!) will step in and that's where our money will go.

They need us JUST AS MUCH as we need them (in some respects I would argue they need us more so, since one could spend that money on beer, ice-cream or whatever else he/she chose to spend it on) , simply because we are the ones with the cash. I might write to Bachmann, but really we don't need to. Our purchasing decisions will dictate the end product. If it is to be a "toy product" then that's because the market dictates as such. However, I think most of us on here (the modellers, the enthusiasts) are numerous enough for there to be a sustainable industry to cater for our needs, to take our cash, so as to speak.

Good point Karhedron about the lack if spares from Bachmann. I brought this up a few pages ago, but was informed that you can get parts from them. I'm now not sure what the truth is on this one. I don't really have many Bachmann models so I cannot really say. However, if it is true, then they have just lost me as a customer for powered locomotives, since my hobby is maintaining my own locos. I'm just not interested in a toy that, if it breaks, either has to be sent back or thrown in the bin.

Can anyone give us an answer on this from experience. And preferable we're talking parts beyond just split gears.

If it's true that parts are hard to come by then Bachmann probably made the decision that they don't want people repairing old locos, since it cannibalises new sales. Perhaps they are right from that perspective, but from my perspective I am now buying a completely different kind of product that doesn't meet my hobby needs. This is where the likes of others (perhaps DJM) step in.

I wouldn't buy a car that I could not buy spare parts for. Same for my locomotives.

Good thread this!

Dan