N Gauge Forum

And it is all to be sold on-line.

14 pages of stock and accessories so far on the Hornby website.

Very reminiscent of what the Triang offerings were in the early 1960s. Except at that time there were no class 66s or 50s, HSTs or Mark III coaches!

Locos: A1/A3, A4, Princess Coronation, 08, 50, 66, HST.
Coaches: Stanier 57', Pullmans, Mk 1, Mk 2, Mk 3.
Wagons: 5 plank, Ventilated vans, LNER Toad Brake (just like Triang one), 12T tanks, 21T mineral wagon, more modern TTA tanks, HAA hoppers.

The couplings look appalingly large and scary.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/126/1517-101022123818.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=126649)

https://uk.hornby.com/hornbytt120 (https://uk.hornby.com/hornbytt120)

I don't think we have anything to be worried about :)
Hornby is just a bit player in the N gauge scene and while their Brighton Belle is nice, I don't think they thought the market was big enough.

So what do they think they are going to achive with TT-120, with couplings like that! 

Bob

i wonder what the detail level and quality will be.

it seems to be priced quite reasonably - by current levels! maybe that's to entice people into tt scale.

i hope it wont distract other manufacturers (rapido, dapol) away from new n gauge models.


tim

If I was starting from scratch I would be interested but I'm committed to N and 00. I don't see any small steam locos which is a shame but maybe they will come later.

A bold move on Hornby's part it will be interesting to see what happens. I do wonder how they are going to market it without retailers, how will you be able to see the models and get tempted into buying them?

Come on, be honest, even though none of us on this forum is planning to switch to TT, we're all going to buy one item, probably an iconic loco, to satisfy our curiosity.

For me it will be the Stanier pacific.

Oxford  have also announced 6 vehicles in tt.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/126/1970-101022132249.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=126650)

Yeah good luck, they obviously think there is a market.    I expect I'll end up buying something :)

I too looked at the couplings, they look like the Tillig NEM type (so not the same as older Continental TT used) and not compatible with the old TT3 range.

(https://shop.donnerbuechse.com/yanis42/system/modules/y42_ishop/web/images/product/tillig-spur-tt%2C-kupplung-%28standard%29%2C-8-st%C3%BCck-08840-869-800x600px.jpg)

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 10, 2022, 01:01:08 PM
Come on, be honest, even though none of us on this forum is planning to switch to TT, we're all going to buy one item, probably an iconic loco, to satisfy our curiosity.

For me it will be the Stanier pacific.

For me it will be nothing at all  ;)

I spend enough already on the N Gauge stuff I want, I don't feel any need to go messing with my bank balance for a souvenir!

Regards,

John P

 

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 10, 2022, 01:01:08 PM
Come on, be honest, even though none of us on this forum is planning to switch to TT, we're all going to buy one item, probably an iconic loco, to satisfy our curiosity.

For me it will be the Stanier pacific.

If they do Terriers and a Q1, I might not be able to resist  :-[

Hopefully things will have improved since I dabbled in TT back in the 1960s? My Britannia and Castle Locos could just about manage to haul 3 coaches, add a fourth and they struggled, even with magnethesion :( The smoke unit on the Britannia was a novelty though. I waited ages for the 3 car DMU to become available, which it didn't before I gave up. In the end I switched to N and have stuck with it ever since. No, I will not be going back to TT, not even for one item.

Not in the slightest bit interested really.  Committed to n gauge and if I ever go larger perhaps when I'm older I'd revert to 00.  Not sure I like the fact they are only selling online either, I know it may be inevitable at this point but not sure they should be ditching stores altogether on this.

I suspect with the 00 Market so crowded, and them not in N and therefore not wanting to compete.. They are trying to make their own market.

Had I already not had commitments to N and EM, I'd have considered TT 1/120.

TT seems to be the in thing at the moment as both Peco and Heljan announced products for it a few months back.

there is some nice german and czech tt.

I'm not going to be buying any hornby uk tt though.

i'll be interested to see what the detail level and running quality is like though.

tim

Sorry but I'm in the not remotely interested camp!

Andy

Quote from: BramptonBranch on October 10, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
Sorry but I'm in the not remotely interested camp!

Andy

Well, they don't do Warships in TT yet!

Quote from: JonMann on October 10, 2022, 03:38:49 PM
TT seems to be the in thing at the moment as both Peco and Heljan announced products for it a few months back.

Maybe "insider knowledge", eg. Hornby letting them know something was coming? :)  I'm sure it helps to get some other manufacturers on-board.   TT has always had a following on the Continent.

I'd be sorely tempted if the difference was bigger. For the European market the 1:120 does a great job splitting the difference between N and HO, whilst for the UK market it just feels too close to N for me, being only 20% bigger than 1:148.

The price is good though, and I like that there's a bit of crossover from both N and OO, so Next-18 sockets, but with more space for sound conversions/bigger speakers. I wonder what the detail levels will be like. A Railroad-esque 66 certainly wouldn't tempt me, and at the price given it's hard to imagine it being much else.

Quote from: Bob G on October 10, 2022, 12:27:39 PM

Wagons: ... 12T tanks ...

The couplings look appalingly large and scary.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/126/1517-101022123818.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=126649)

https://uk.hornby.com/hornbytt120 (https://uk.hornby.com/hornbytt120)

Drat! (https://www.shapeways.com/product/H4DGF7LA5/tt-120-14t-class-b-tank-1907)

Mike

What an impressive product launch!  It really is almost a complete system*, to be introduced in four 'phases'.  There then appears to be a range of products already planned to follow.  It certainly represents a lot of work and significant investment by Hornby over the past five years or so.

I wish Hornby every success.

Am I tempted?  Yes; I think so.

* Signals appear to be an omission at present - perhaps I did not notice them in the brochure.

With best wishes.

John

Very interesting development and I cannot wait to see the models in real life. As I get older, the eyesight is not what it was so TT appeals. Very large range although spread over many eras.

I wish Hornby every success with their new venture.

Kind regards

Paddy

It's very interesting.

One attractive part of this introduction is that, at least maroon Mk1 coaches can be bought and with just enough choice to make a full train. But it'll count for more if stocks are available over an extended lifespan, rather than only while this run lasts.

To me this is a gamble.
And is it a threat to N gauge?

Quote from: port perran on October 10, 2022, 08:41:57 PM
And is it a threat to N gauge?

This is what I was thinking, how much of a threat it will be.

If it takes off, other manufacturers get involved hence reduced production slots for N.

Will people look more favourable on TT than N as a space saver, I certainly may have years ago. N is only a small percentage of the sales of model railways will TT see it reduced further

Maybe Hornby held back because of its prior experience with TT in the 60s.
1:120 scale is popular on the continent and Hornby senses they have a winner this time round.
It could do well for those who think N is too small but don't have the room to model 4mm scale.

I think it's a real worry.
Hornby are so well known.
Ask anyone to name a company that makes model railways and they instantly say Hornby.
So anyone looking to build a space saving layout will automatically turn to Hornby ( because that's a name they know) and they'll realise that they can build a reasonable layout in a small space but in TT scale.

Before we know it Bachmann and Dapol will have tagged along  and N is dead.

And from a production viewpoint it's that much bigger and hence easier to build and more cost effective (and probably more reliable because of the slightly bigger size).

Well...

Z gauge came along, and that never really took off like N has.
T gauge is for those that like to be "different" and push the envelope.
O gauge has a new following.
Why not TT as well.

Modellers are a broad church.

BUT

I've waited many years for there to be enough RTR models in OO to make a decent SR/WR blue period terminus/stone terminal layout, in DCC and with sound.
I've got a more than a decent enough collection of N to have a 50s/60s SR/WR main line layout. DC only.

O gauge is too big for my tastes.
I don't need the middle ground TT as it will be years and years before it has anywhere like enough variety as there is in N and OO.

I think @Nbodger (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8543) is right that factories will struggle to deliver, if there is another scale to accommodate.
I also imagine Bachmann and Dapol will have to decide if they enter the TT camp or not. I hope not.

Just my musings.
Bob

Am I the only one who thinks this is all a lot of hot air and no risk to OO or N? Unless Hornby have been secretly producing these models (and it's quite a range) and have them all ready to go then this is something that we won't see for a couple of years at least. Even when everything that has been announced is available there isn't enough variety in what has been announced by Hornby, Heljan and Peco to make much other than a good train set. The range isn't wide enough to cover even a decent fraction of any particular area, and I suspect it'll take ten years or more to get to that stage. A commendable new approach, but a risky one in these times.

And those couplings make the Rapido look so much better!

Dave

Quote from: Southerngooner on October 10, 2022, 09:22:36 PM
Am I the only one who thinks this is all a lot of hot air and no risk to OO or N? Unless Hornby have been secretly producing these models (and it's quite a range) and have them all ready to go then this is something that we won't see for a couple of years at least. Even when everything that has been announced is available there isn't enough variety in what has been announced by Hornby, Heljan and Peco to make much other than a good train set. The range isn't wide enough to cover even a decent fraction of any particular area, and I suspect it'll take ten years or more to get to that stage. A commendable new approach, but a risky one in these times.

And those couplings make the Rapido look so much better!

Dave

I'm with you on this Dave. And those couplings! Ugh!! Do they double as Compo ration can openers?

Quote from: Southerngooner on October 10, 2022, 09:22:36 PM
Am I the only one who thinks this is all a lot of hot air and no risk to OO or N? Unless Hornby have been secretly producing these models (and it's quite a range) and have them all ready to go then this is something that we won't see for a couple of years at least. [...]

I understand from the video that much of the track is already in Hornby's warehouse and the first two train sets are due for Christmas.  The first of the other locomotives appears scheduled to follow soon afterwards.  It appears to have been a successful 'Hush-Hush' operation!

The sets appear especially good value for money if one adds up the cost of the constituent parts and there is also a 15% discount for TT:120 club members.  Annual club subscription is £30.00 UK/£35.00 other.  But free until 31 January 2023.

Best wishes

John

Availability might swing it a bit.

If I were just starting modelling and wanted something, and it's available to purchase, I might just go for a restricted range but able to buy, rather than wait a couple of years for something promised but yet to appear.

But no, I won't be going to change from N, far too much time and money invested already. Thirty years ago might have been a different story.

Martyn

One thing Hornby's dip into TT could do because of its constant 1:120 scale is modelling Channel Tunnel traffic.
No need to worry about 1:148 or 1:160 scales for wagons although the differences are small.

Needless to say they had to introduce sufficient models including covering the steam era, in order to appeal to as many people as possible.
I would have gone for class 92s and wagons suitable for Channel Tunnel use and shrunk their class 395 Javelins.

EDIT: A shrunken-down class 71 would have been useful for Dover train ferry trains and a B1 for the same to/from Harwich - don't know how large is the range in 1:120 scale of Continental European wagons compatible with cross-Channel traffic exists

Quote from: gc4946 on October 10, 2022, 09:52:04 PM
One thing Hornby's dip into TT could do because of its constant 1:120 scale is modelling Channel Tunnel traffic.

Hornby's announcement is more than just "dipping" into TT.

However, for me there will be an element of doubt about this venture until they actually have stock on the shelves.

Will they wait until they have enough pre-orders before starting production ?

I've read the announcement and comments with interest and, it's fair to say, that 30 years ago I probably would have off loaded what I had and jumped to TT.  I would have done so because 30 years ago the fidelity of detail, range and running ability of N gauge were, at times, questionable and I thought a slightly larger scale would compensate for those shortcomings.  Thinking back that far, you would not have believed that we would now have sound fitted locomotives in N gauge and the detail would be to the level it is today.

In that regard, there's been huge improvements and so I see this as more of a standalone scale which Hornby are promoting.  It will probably get converts from both OO and N but, given my investment, I'll not be moving as I've too much tied up and I'd be back to waiting for certain locomotives or rolling stock to arrive.  Frankly, I don't want to get on the waiting game merry-go-round again.

Cheers,

Geoff     

Heljan have already sold out all their 08's , some class 31s and all J 94s - all on preorder ( Hattons email)

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/siteresults?search%2Fsources%2FNew%2Fscales%2FTT%20%281%3A120%29%2Fbrands%2FHeljan%2Fstockstatus%2FOnOrder=&utm_source=klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=heljanttpreorderpriceupdate-sep22&_kx=b-clECEYoYOD019iLv8mMKPt3frX7-n13giy_gaFzao%3D.JGQeXh (https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/siteresults?search%2Fsources%2FNew%2Fscales%2FTT%20%281%3A120%29%2Fbrands%2FHeljan%2Fstockstatus%2FOnOrder=&utm_source=klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=heljanttpreorderpriceupdate-sep22&_kx=b-clECEYoYOD019iLv8mMKPt3frX7-n13giy_gaFzao%3D.JGQeXh)

This suggests a fair amount of interest?.

If the energy level and content delivery of the bloke from Hornby I saw interviewed today, and if that's reflective of their marketing and manufacturing groups, I don't think there's a lot to worry about.

Quote from: LASteve on October 11, 2022, 04:21:25 AM
If the energy level and content delivery of the bloke from Hornby I saw interviewed today, and if that's reflective of their marketing and manufacturing groups, I don't think there's a lot to worry about.

He was quite engaged with it then?  :no:

I wonder if the development of the new TT:120 be shown in the second series of "Hornby:A Model World" on UKTV?
https://corporate.uktv.co.uk/news/article/yesterday-hornby-model-world/ (https://corporate.uktv.co.uk/news/article/yesterday-hornby-model-world/)

Quote from: Paddy on October 10, 2022, 08:24:30 PM
Very interesting development and I cannot wait to see the models in real life. As I get older, the eyesight is not what it was so TT appeals. Very large range although spread over many eras.

I wish Hornby every success with their new venture.

Kind regards

Paddy

I have been rooted in N gauge for around 45 years now. Thankfully my eyesight is pretty good for my age, but some younger than myself can find they start to struggle with N gauge.
I'm sure many of us N gaugers view OO as HUGE having worked in such a small scale.

I foresee TT becoming popular, with some sight challenged N gauge people migrating to it. Also new modellers who don't fancy N, but can get a bit more TT into a given space than OO.

Hornby and Peco will undoubtedly have done a fair bit of market research before investing in TT. I have a feeling the range could grow quite quickly.

My permanent N layout is in a 3m x 2.4 insulated shed. If I were to build a smallish portable terminus layout, I would strongly consider TT.

Some photos of the pre-production samples etc. here.    Looks like basic loco drive from a single central worm and gear (I only see one gear cover on the bottom plate of the pacifics), so relying on the coupling rods to transmit power to the other driving wheels.     

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-tt-model-prototypes-examined (https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-tt-model-prototypes-examined)


I signed up to the club as it's free :)  I expect I'll end up getting an A4 set as we seem to have a bit of everything in our house  :D  If I do build a TT layout I'll go for Peco track and Unifrog points rather than the Hornby sectional track and insulfrogs.

I like TT as a scale (thinking of 1:101 here).

It will be interesting to see what UK loading gauge TT120 will look like.

I can't imagine the retailers will be happy about them being direct order only.

I do my UK outline modelling in OO gauge. I would be tempted, but Hornby have fallen for their usual "big engine" policy. Much as I like my Princess Coronations and Hoovers, I think a Black 5 and a Duff/Tractor might have been better choices. Unless another manufacturer is keeping something under wraps? So limited scope for a small layout side-project. If I was starting afresh, I would seriously consider it though.

I have joined the Club and ordered the A4 set. At that price rude not to. Zero chance of me changing scale but A4s are a fave of mine. My issue really is that the variation in scale to British N is pretty insignificant, N 1:148 v TT120 erm 1:120 so we are talking the TT being 1/5 bigger, so a 10cm loco in N becomes 12.5 cm in TT if I have my maths right.

Roy

My arithmetic says the linear dimensions scale by 1.233. Remember that what the eye sees is volume (evolutionary adaptation to guess the weight of an object before picking it up) and the volume scales by 1.876, so a TT:120 model might look nearly twice as big as an N:148 one.

Quote from: Roy L S on October 11, 2022, 02:08:38 PM
I have joined the Club and ordered the A4 set.

When/how did it apply the 15% off?  At the checkout stage?   I'm still deciding which set to go for.

It s

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 11, 2022, 03:01:59 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on October 11, 2022, 02:08:38 PM
I have joined the Club and ordered the A4 set.

When/how did it apply the 15% off?  At the checkout stage?   I'm still deciding which set to go for.

I am not sure to be honest. I think it should have been deducted at checkout but mine hasn't - I am querying with Customer Services.

Regards

Roy

I came to N some 15 ago so that I could run Swallow 8+2 HST's with a reasonable run, which N gave me the space for. When it comes to making building my eyes and hands are beginning to rebel a little, even with various aids.

So I have to say I'm seriously tempted to make a Beginners Layout, something like https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=7286 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=7286) that @PostModN66 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2671) drew up back in 2013!

I can envisage a Class 31 or a Panier 57 (both phase 3&4) with a couple of coaches. A few vans when they became available could be used for the factory. That could keep me amused :D.

I'll likely sign up for the TT Club sometime in December so that I'll catch the Phase 3&4 stuff at 15% discount. like others have said, it would be rude not too as it's free with 15% discount for club members  ;D

I'd still keep my N as my main layout though, I haven't got the space to run full length HSTs in TT1:120  ;D

Quote from: Jack on October 11, 2022, 03:51:03 PM

I'll likely sign up for the TT Club sometime in December so that I'll catch the Phase 3&4 stuff at 15% discount. like others have said, it would be rude not too as it's free with 15% discount for club members  ;D

would be rude for Hornby to not offer at least a 15% discount to club members as that's the standard discount retailers would give over Hornby's online RRP anyway.

This is an interesting announcement. It is not realistic to be able to make high confidence predictions at this stage as to the remote consequences of this (e.g., on the popularity of N gauge or the hobby generally).

It is clearly a co-ordinated effort among a number of major manufacturers (most notably Peco and Hornby, the latter of which seems to have invested the most heavily). The intended appeal of TT 1:120 is that it takes less space than 00 but gives less trouble to older people who may have eyesight and/or co-ordination difficulties with N.

It is not something that affects what I do at this stage: I hope that I have enough years left of good eyesight and co-ordination to enjoy the N gauge layouts that I am currently building and planning. There is still a greater range of rolling stock available in N and I can still fit more in to the space in N than TT. At present, the only advantage for me of 00 over TT is the greater range of rolling stock (particularly in the pre-1948 era), which is why I am planning an 00 gauge layout set in 1936 (an N gauge layout of a main line location in that era being largely impractical for anyone keen on a high degree of realism of rolling stock variety).

I can see, however, that in 20-30 years' time, my view might change if (1) my eyesight and co-ordination deteriorate to make N gauge more difficult; and (2) a much wider range of TT should become available. TT may also be more workable for kit building, which is extremely difficult in N at present for powered items, but is much more straightforward in 1:76. If it does prove to be equally practical to build kits of things like steam locomotives and carriages in TT as in 00/EM/P4 and a good range of these are offered, this may make a substantial difference to the practicalities for modelling earlier eras. But that would be likely to be a long way in the future yet.

Do the A3 and A4 reuse the same bodies from the Corgi Rail Legends range – just with an added motor? Or are these completely new? I always thought that 1:120 was a bad choice for the Corgi locomotives but maybe they were the starting point for Hornby's TT adventure.

Quote from: Hiawatha on October 11, 2022, 05:12:11 PM
Do the A3 and A4 reuse the same bodies from the Corgi Rail Legends range – just with an added motor? Or are these completely new? I always thought that 1:120 was a bad choice for the Corgi locomotives but maybe they were the starting point for Hornby's TT adventure.

That is an amazing coincidence, but I've had a look and though there are some slight differences between the A3 and A4 models, I would not be surprised if they shared similar CADs for the main body shapes.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 11, 2022, 03:01:59 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on October 11, 2022, 02:08:38 PM
I have joined the Club and ordered the A4 set.

When/how did it apply the 15% off?  At the checkout stage?   I'm still deciding which set to go for.

To answer my own question: £29.17 Taken off The Easterner set at the checkout stage.   Looking forward to a nice Xmas prezzie for myself :)

If Hornby uses the Corgi Rail Legends as a basis for working TT scale models, there would be LNER A3, A4, and Peppercorn A1, GWR Castle and a Britannia
https://www.warkswings.com/corgi-rail-legends-79-c.asp (https://www.warkswings.com/corgi-rail-legends-79-c.asp)

Quote from: gc4946 on October 11, 2022, 10:12:43 PM
If Hornby uses the Corgi Rail Legends as a basis for working TT scale models, there would be LNER A3, A4, and Peppercorn A1, GWR Castle and a Britannia

Well there is a Castle and a 9F in the catalogue for the future :)

I mean... i need more models like I need a hole in the head, but a 2+8 swallow HST and some HAAs is pretty tempting. Joined the club, just keeping my options open!  ;D

If they did a coal sector 56 or a 60 then I'd be signing up right away!

In my opinion Hornby has made a "brave decision" (those who remember the "Yes Minister" TV series will know what I mean) with the new TT-120 range but I wish them well.  I believe it will take quite a long time for the other manufacturers (Dapol and possibly Farish ) to get interested, if at all – Dapol has decided that  00 and 0 gauge developments are more profitable so the TT120 thing, if successful, is only likely slow down any developments in British N.
Remember it's 11 years since Dapol announced the Bulleid Pacifics, original and rebuilt, in N gauge.

I must admit to being a little sceptical about this. Hornby have obviously thrown a lot of resources into this but making the range online-only could limit the take-up.

A perverse train (!) of thoughts may mean that the entry into TT may show just how strong and well represented N gauge (and even more so, OO) is.

If Hornby wanted to expand significantly into N, what would they produce (no wish lists, please)? In N, most diesel classes are available, and the principal steam classes also. The main omissions are electric locos and both DMU and EMUs, and steam tank engines. Rolling stock is also fairly well catered for, the main problem for us N gaugers being the batch production which means significant time gaps between re-releases of models already produced.

So where would Hornby go? In order to increase their sales, I think it is a bold decision to enter a totally new market, but like others, I just hope it is not at the expense of further developments in N gauge by the established manufacturers.

Martyn

A brave move by Hornby! I find it amazing that they see more sales & profit in TT120 than N Gauge or 009. It's almost as if 9mm gauge track doesn't exist in Margate!

There's a full catalogue on the Hornby website. It looks like they've mounted the couplings on the bogies on the Staniers, Mk1 and Mk3, but have a close coupling mechanism on the Mk2s.

It'll be interesting to see if Bachmann and Dapol follow the crowd.

Steven B

This is certainly an interesting announcement from Hornby and, as an East German TT Modeller, one that I'll be watching closely, and yes I've joined the TT:120 Club.

The talk of Scale & Gauge is an interesting one and without wanting to drag up the age-old discussion around it, lets look at it, British N, OO and British TT (TT3 or 3mm/ft) are all compromise scales/gauges for reason we all know about. TT:120 is pretty much bang on for scale & gauge and firmly sits between N Gauge 1:160 & HO. This will also make it compatible with Continental TT which means that Modellers should be able to use Continental wagons on a British layout without it looking out of place, unlike now with Continental N & HO.

Will I be jumping in?? Possibly but not with both feet, may be just dip a toe in. I did get a bit excited when Heljan announced the 31, but without anything for it to pull it tempered my excitement a bit, but now my interest has been reignited.

As far as the discussion about Hornby not doing N, they were never going to come to the sunny side of the street because there are already to many players in the N Gauge and they'd have to play catch-up very quickly and what would be their flagship N Gauge Model out of their current range that isn't already manufactured by Bachmann or Dapol??

My biggest issue with this announcement is the direct selling aspect and not using traditional Model Shops, this is potentially another nail in the coffin of bricks & mortar traders.

Finally (Thanks god I hear you all cry  ;) ;) ) this TT announcement is not really aimed at the likes of us, current modellers in whatever scale we model in, but at those who are just starting in the hobby. Simon Kohler did say that Hornby were going to hit the marketing quite hard with TV ads, Newspaper Ads and Online marketing all pointing Joe Public to the Hornby Website to buy their stuff.

I've finished now so you can get back to some modelling  :P :P

Regards

Neal.

Quote from: martyn on October 12, 2022, 09:13:53 AM
If Hornby wanted to expand significantly into N, what would they produce (no wish lists, please)? In N, most diesel classes are available, and the principal steam classes also. The main omissions are electric locos and both DMU and EMUs, and steam tank engines. Rolling stock is also fairly well catered for, the main problem for us N gaugers being the batch production which means significant time gaps between re-releases of models already produced.

There are plenty of steam locos they could have a go at. P2, W1, N7,T9, Lord Nelson and Princess Royal sit in their OO Gauge range with no N Gauge equivalent.

For diesels, I'd guess that the market could handle another manufacturer making a class 37 and 47. There are several sub-classes like the 25/3 that have yet to be done. Whilst Rapido have announced the class 44, there's no guarantee we'll get the 45 or 46 from them. Then there's the odd-balls like classes 15 and 16 and the LMS Twins!

For coaching stock there are plenty of pre-nationalisation vehicles to work though - there's a lack of suburban stock for example (like the Hornby Gresley 51'ers). There are Mk2b,c,d & e to have a go at. The Mk4s would follow nicely from the research done for their new OO Gauge range.


Steven B.

This announcement by Hornby is pretty interesting . From a business point of view its a completely captive market ! No other major manufacturers apart from Peco who were rather carefull in a commercial sense ! So by doing this announcement they have scored a major goal in a sense !!
                It is quite obvious  that oo is very crowded market and N is not far behind . . So into unchartered water and a completely captive market . No secondhand no real rival a Business dream !! Just one major gamble is there a real market , are there customers .Has anyone been involved in any  business surveys at exhibitions etc or online as I would love to no what the customer base and sale predictions are and where they got there figures from !!
                  Also do not like the online sales only !! Yet again Hornby could be doing a major 'male chicken' (changed by forum) up like the noughties ( Almost went bust! ) There are alot of factors and it is a very high risk strategy !! Remember Live steam !!! We shall see !!

I do not think that there is any possibility of Hornby entering the British N market in a meaningful way. When I talked to Simon Kohler about the Brighton Belle, he claimed that it was an initiative from the Arnold brand people and not a Margate initiative. Margate's promotion of the Belle was lukewarm. Hornby have no desire to be swimming as a minnow in a pool already occupied by bigger N fish. So building a TT:120 pool is far more attractive.

Yesterday as an experiment I printed out a building in N and 1/120. Truthfully the TT building is not really much bigger than the N one (23%) and in my opinion TT will not be the salvation for an N gauger's failing eyesight or probably hand eye co-ordination. TT will also seem very fiddly for anyone converting from 00 gauge to TT. So its selling point is saving space over 00, and that is the market it will cannibalise to a limited extent. In a way I hope that TT:120 becomes a big success for Hornby, bringing new customers into the model railway market, so they stop behaving as the playground bully in the 00 arena. I also hope that the new producers from the past 10 years do not allow themselves to be lured into diluting their efforts by dipping their toes in the TT pool.

Having said that, I can see that there would be some fun in an Inglenook yard populated by a class 08 and some of those splendid Tillig bogie sliding wall vans with a Hornby VGA or two on Tillig ballasted "Unitrack". Coffee Table Top.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 11, 2022, 10:09:41 PM

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 11, 2022, 03:01:59 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on October 11, 2022, 02:08:38 PM
I have joined the Club and ordered the A4 set.

When/how did it apply the 15% off?  At the checkout stage?   I'm still deciding which set to go for.

To answer my own question: £29.17 Taken off The Easterner set at the checkout stage.   Looking forward to a nice Xmas prezzie for myself :)

Yes, I have queried and apparently there is a technical issue with some orders, but my discount has been applied, so I too am looking forward to a pressie for me! I really like the look of the A4, but are spoked tender wheels correct?

I joined the TT:120 Club yesterday (no harm as it's free) and after mulling it over since then, I've just pre-ordered the "Eastener Train Set" with the BR A4. With the 15% discount that being a member of the club gives you, the set is not much more expensive than the RRP of a similar sized Farish or Dapol steam loco on their own.

I do have their Rail Legends Mallard that I've had for a number of years, and to my eye, if the loco that comes with the set is of a similar quality to what that is, I'll personally be very happy.

I don't know if I'll order anything else though, as although I've still not got a permanent layout, I've got a considerable amount of money tied up in my N-gauge stuff.

Quote from: gc4946 on October 10, 2022, 09:52:04 PM
One thing Hornby's dip into TT could do because of its constant 1:120 scale is modelling Channel Tunnel traffic.
No need to worry about 1:148 or 1:160 scales for wagons although the differences are small.

Needless to say they had to introduce sufficient models including covering the steam era, in order to appeal to as many people as possible.
I would have gone for class 92s and wagons suitable for Channel Tunnel use and shrunk their class 395 Javelins.

EDIT: A shrunken-down class 71 would have been useful for Dover train ferry trains and a B1 for the same to/from Harwich - don't know how large is the range in 1:120 scale of Continental European wagons compatible with cross-Channel traffic exists

Intermodal stock is the obvious common ground for international traffic. Some discussion over there (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/173211-old-new-borrowed-and-blue/#comment-4881260)...

New modern wagons such as the Sggmrs (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=%28rokal%2C+bttb%2C+tillig%2C+piko%2C+bahn%2C+roko%29+tt+sggmrs&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=%28rokal%2C+bttb%2C+tillig%2C+piko%2C+bahn%2C+roko%29+tt+%28container%29&_sop=15&LH_PrefLoc=2) articulated 90' bogie wagons are quite pricey, but 3D prints of the Sgnss (https://www.shapeways.com/product/UPNTMPU68/tt-scale-sgnss-container-wagon-eu?optionId=59175873) and Sdffgss (https://www.shapeways.com/product/8FSG53WWW/tt-120-kaa-ixa-sdffgss-intermodal-pocket-wagon?optionId=270001526) less so.

Mike

 :offtopicsign:

[quote  I really like the look of the A4, but are spoked tender wheels correct?
[/quote]

I haven't gone fully through the RCTS history and tender details closely, and it doesn't seem to give full details of all the tenders, but it seems that corridor tenders had disc wheels and non-corridors were spoked.

The history of both the A4 and A3 tenders is rather involved!

Martyn

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 12, 2022, 10:07:51 AM

Yesterday as an experiment I printed out a building in N and 1/120. Truthfully the TT building is not really much bigger than the N one (23%) and in my opinion TT will not be the salvation for an N gauger’s failing eyesight or probably hand eye co-ordination.

You set me thinking @woodbury22uk (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1599), thank you :thumbsup:

By way of my own experiment, and to get a visual of TT 1:120, I downloaded a Scalescenes.com free model so as to do a compassion. I've made a few of Scalescene models. John Wiffen of Scalescenes advices reducing the 00 gauge models to 63% for TT1:120. Scaling up an N gauge model by 23% doesn't work when it came to normal A4 printers, parts "fall off" the paper edge.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/126/689-121022143929.jpeg)

I will admit that I wasn't perhaps as careful folding as I would usually have been.

Did I find it easier? I have to say Yes, particularly when it came to folding edges over. Will others who have sight and/or dexterity problems find it easier? All i can suggest is do what I've done and download a free model from Scalescenes, or wherever, both in 00 (reduce printing to 63%) & N gauge and try it for themselves.

Will TT be easier when it comes to making plasticard models? I don't know, maybe time will tell.

As you say converting to TT may not be the answer for sight and dexterity issues, but for some it just might extend their modelling career.

Quote from: maridunian on October 12, 2022, 02:05:04 PM
Intermodal stock is the obvious common ground for international traffic. Some discussion over there (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/173211-old-new-borrowed-and-blue/#comment-4881260)...

New modern wagons such as the Sggmrs (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=%28rokal%2C+bttb%2C+tillig%2C+piko%2C+bahn%2C+roko%29+tt+sggmrs&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=%28rokal%2C+bttb%2C+tillig%2C+piko%2C+bahn%2C+roko%29+tt+%28container%29&_sop=15&LH_PrefLoc=2) articulated 90' bogie wagons are quite pricey, but 3D prints of the Sgnss (https://www.shapeways.com/product/UPNTMPU68/tt-scale-sgnss-container-wagon-eu?optionId=59175873) and Sdffgss (https://www.shapeways.com/product/8FSG53WWW/tt-120-kaa-ixa-sdffgss-intermodal-pocket-wagon?optionId=270001526) less so.

Mike

When the first raft of announcements came I did some digging on the potential models, but didn't find any! We don't have the Sggmrs over here, and the IKA Megafrets didn't seem to be available. Couldn't find any IZA, IWA, FIA, ICA, IPA or JIAs either when I looked. So it's a nice theory, but didn't seem to work in practice. If someone did a 92 I'd be in like a shot!

I've looked through their brochure and Hornby are certainly going in a big way to launch its TT range.
All their steam locos announced are large, express passenger types except the 9F. Maybe in the medium term they'll release mixed traffic, smaller tender and tank locos.
It'll be interesting to see their new 37s and 47s because their OO versions are very long in the tooth and Hornby could have done them from scratch.

At the moment with the range on offer, I'm not switching over just yet.

Interview with Simon Kohler is interesting
https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/interview-simon-kohler-on-launch-of-hornby-tt/ (https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/interview-simon-kohler-on-launch-of-hornby-tt/)
Development started in 2017
Target market is people new to the hobby so advertising in newspapers is planned
Aiming to get whole family involved in model railways
Simon recognises that £200+ for a loco is too expensive for many

The pricing is odd though. The 66 is £100, whilst the 50 is £140. One presumes there's a fair bit of commonality between them, and obviously they're both new toolings. Ok there are more liveries to do in a 66, and perhaps they envisage selling markedly more 66s, but that's feels fairly unlikely.

Hornby churned out 66s in various current liveries over the past year or so at affordable prices

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=492 (https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=492)

Probably doing the same strategy in TT

But that's the old tooling, no working lights, generic body not suitable for half the variants they offer, woeful decoration. That doesn't appear to be the case with the TT one.

Quote from: njee20 on October 12, 2022, 05:21:29 PM
But that's the old tooling, no working lights, generic body not suitable for half the variants they offer, woeful decoration. That doesn't appear to be the case with the TT one.

you're quite right, I suspect they looked afresh at the 66s, including designing it with a central motor and flywheels and tooling up of body variants to reflect the real locos.

It will be very interesting to see whether other manufacturers will do TT accessories, will Metcalfe do buildings? will others do figures and line side items? 

When you think of all the bits and pieces available for 00 and N there's a lot to be made. I suspect they will be watching to see what happens.

Quote from: gc4946 on October 12, 2022, 05:29:39 PM

Quote from: njee20 on October 12, 2022, 05:21:29 PM
But that's the old tooling, no working lights, generic body not suitable for half the variants they offer, woeful decoration. That doesn't appear to be the case with the TT one.

you're quite right, I suspect they looked afresh at the 66s, including designing it with a central motor and flywheels and tooling up of body variants to reflect the real locos.

So back to my original point, the 40% price disparity is odd!

Unrelated to that, anyone have any idea what the curve radii are?

Quote from: njee20 on October 12, 2022, 06:27:21 PM
Unrelated to that, anyone have any idea what the curve radii are?

R1 267mm (10.5"),
R2 310mm (12.2"),
R3 353mm (13.9")
and R4 396mm (15.6").

Must admit I do want the 9F when it comes out :)  Plus some smaller steam locos more suitable to a branch-line shelf layout or similar.  Will make a change from the German N empire.

Quote from: gc4946 on October 12, 2022, 05:29:39 PM

Quote from: njee20 on October 12, 2022, 05:21:29 PM
But that's the old tooling, no working lights, generic body not suitable for half the variants they offer, woeful decoration. That doesn't appear to be the case with the TT one.

you're quite right, I suspect they looked afresh at the 66s, including designing it with a central motor and flywheels and tooling up of body variants to reflect the real locos.

And the cynic would observe that Gaugemaster have asked for expressions of interest in a new TT Class 66, so maybe Hornby want to see that idea off.

It'll be interesting to see how Hornby will tackle multiple units.
In OO, they either use a power bogie or in the case of the 800, a central motor.

They could design a chassis with a low-slung motor so that an interior can be modelled.

Quote from: silly moo on October 12, 2022, 05:41:51 PM
It will be very interesting to see whether other manufacturers will do TT accessories, will Metcalfe do buildings? will others do figures and line side items? 

Gaugemaster have announced they will be doing (or at least reselling) figures, tunnels, the Viessmann catenary and other bits and pieces.  I expect a lot of these are probably sourced from existing Continental TT accessory manufacturers.

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/news/article/view/id/712/ (https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/news/article/view/id/712/)

Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on October 12, 2022, 04:52:56 PM
Target market is people new to the hobby so advertising in newspapers is planned
Aiming to get whole family involved in model railways
Simon recognises that £200+ for a loco is too expensive for many

Exactly. It will be a simple point of entry, not too much choice. They won't have to differentiate themselves from other providers. People are used to buying online, and selling direct provides potential for bigger profits.

But Hornby are unlucky with their timing, launching just as people are pulling their horns in in a bracing economic climate.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 12, 2022, 08:38:16 PM

Quote from: gc4946 on October 12, 2022, 05:29:39 PM

Quote from: njee20 on October 12, 2022, 05:21:29 PM
But that's the old tooling, no working lights, generic body not suitable for half the variants they offer, woeful decoration. That doesn't appear to be the case with the TT one.

you're quite right, I suspect they looked afresh at the 66s, including designing it with a central motor and flywheels and tooling up of body variants to reflect the real locos.

And the cynic would observe that Gaugemaster have asked for expressions of interest in a new TT Class 66, so maybe Hornby want to see that idea off.

Ahhhh, yes, good shout. I'm not sure that's particularly cynical!

Now Heljan have pulled out of TT120 :

https://www.heljan.co.uk/post/heljan-tt-120-update (https://www.heljan.co.uk/post/heljan-tt-120-update)

TT:FN

I like that.

Hornby, bored with just bullying the OO fraternity, now turn on the TT ones. Think they are going to shoot themselves in the foot.

Quote from: Bob G on October 13, 2022, 11:00:21 AM
Hornby, bored with just bullying the OO fraternity, now turn on the TT ones. Think they are going to shoot themselves in the foot.

Are they "bullying" though? Who knows how long the models have been in development by Hornby - probably before Heljan announced theirs.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 13, 2022, 11:30:16 AM

Quote from: Bob G on October 13, 2022, 11:00:21 AM
Hornby, bored with just bullying the OO fraternity, now turn on the TT ones. Think they are going to shoot themselves in the foot.

Are they "bullying" though? Who knows how long the models have been in development by Hornby - probably before Heljan announced theirs.

Well, the Hornby Class 31 is not due for release until Phase 4, whenever that might be. Certainly after the 37 and 47, and Castle in Phase 3, so probably at least 3 years time. No idea when Heljan was planning to release their 31, but it is clear that Hornby has staked out a "this is ours" policy by showing their long-term plans (which also help people commit to the scale, I might add, if they can visualise their layout development).

If Hornby stop others making models in TT120, that really would be an own goal for the scale.

Bob 

Quote from: Brian-1c on October 13, 2022, 10:57:11 AM
Now Heljan have pulled out of TT120 :

https://www.heljan.co.uk/post/heljan-tt-120-update (https://www.heljan.co.uk/post/heljan-tt-120-update)

Maybe they'll look at N Gauge instead. Shrinking their OO Garratt & O2 would be popular and eventually someone has to do the LMS Twins in N Gauge.

Quote from: Thorpe Parva on October 13, 2022, 11:54:35 AM

Maybe [Heljan] will look at N Gauge instead. Shrinking their OO Garratt & O2 would be popular ..

Would the Garratt be popular though?  Hatton's proposed version didn't seem to build up enough interest to go ahead.

It's interesting that Hornby kept their plans secret until such a late stage, surely well after their point of no return. If they'd stated their intentions sooner,  niche producers could have could have focussed on filling gaps. Heljan (& Gaugemaster with their Class 66?) have been wrong footed by seeing 1:120 as a greenfield site. Also interesting that Hornby aren't offering a 7-plank, 9ft WB mineral wagon, but Peco are ...

Mike

How secret was it though?  I can't believe Peco, Heljan, Gaugemaster would have embarked on anything without an inkling of something coming from a large manufacturer such as Hornby.  Even if not the details of models.  You'd think Hornby would let something out to try and gain traction having other brands join in.

I'd like to see Simon Kohler play "Truth or dare"  :uneasy:

I have just read on-line (Rails of Sheffield) that Heljan have pulled out of tt120 due to duplication and the hit on the high street model shop.

Quote from: elmo on October 13, 2022, 05:05:44 PM
I have just read on-line (Rails of Sheffield) that Heljan have pulled out of tt120 due to duplication and the hit on the high street model shop.

See reply #83 above

I've just read that Heljan are pulli... kidding. ;D

That's an interesting development. Their release certainly reads as a bit of a dig, a comment about supporting the dealer network who don't get a look in with Hornby.

I'm certainly interested to see where this goes, but I'm not sure that's a positive announcement for anyone involved.

And there's me thinking I'd finally got a use for a Lima 4F - just needs regauging slightly.....

When I started this thread, I thought the bulk of the discussion would be on direct sales vs sales via dealers, particularly as Hornby has been known to grade their dealers, and also to limit dealer stock in OO to get more through their own website.

We seem to have had no problem with Revolution initially selling pre-orders and shop stock items direct from their web page (now they use pre-orders to scope the production size but also sell through retailers), and I wanted to see what folk thought of Hornby scoping pre-orders through their own website with what is in effect a new scale for UK modellers.

I had no idea this would run to seven pages, and I expect it will now run and run. And it is not even N gauge!

Steady on Bob, it's only 4 pages so far!

Quote from: njee20 on October 13, 2022, 06:09:27 PM
Steady on Bob, it's only 4 pages so far!

Why is it seven on my screen then?

OK how about 100 posts instead?

Bob

Quote from: Bob G on October 13, 2022, 06:05:51 PM
When I started this thread, I thought the bulk of the discussion would be on direct sales vs sales via dealers, particularly as Hornby has been known to grade their dealers, and also to limit dealer stock in OO to get more through their own website.

We seem to have had no problem with Revolution initially selling pre-orders and shop stock items direct from their web page (now they use pre-orders to scope the production size but also sell through retailers), and I wanted to see what folk thought of Hornby scoping pre-orders through their own website with what is in effect a new scale for UK modellers.

I had no idea this would run to seven pages, and I expect it will now run and run. And it is not even N gauge!

I think the general negativity towards Hornby's online selling comes from a few things. Firstly, they built their business on the back of the retailers stocking and selling their products, who have progressively been given worse and worse deals and options to keep selling Hornby products.
Secondly, they appear to have been withholding a lot of stock just for their online store. So it'll be out of stock quickly in retailers (when it's not online exclusive), leaving only the full RRP version, which has seen rapid price increases, on the Hornby store.
So now they're doing an entire line as online store only. It's not really a surprise, but it's depending entirely on collectors and people who buy stuff sight unseen to built the TT brand if it's not going to be visible in shops anywhere. It's also quite different from Revolution, who started their business exclusively online. So they weren't generating bad will with any retailers that had been relying on them for stock.

I can see this being a move by Hornby to marginalise N gauge in the UK. If they can get TT popular enough, they can make it the 'compact' train set format for the UK and leave N gauge to the pure hobbyists and enthusiasts. Others have mentioned on the Zoom chats that N gauge might be heading towards another era of large amounts of the new models being created by small cottage industry hobbyists (especially now new tools are available to make more detailed kits) while the big companies pick and choose the juicy bits they can make a serious profit on.

My guy feeling is Hornby will muck it up with TT though.

Quote from: Bob G on October 13, 2022, 06:10:53 PM

Quote from: njee20 on October 13, 2022, 06:09:27 PM
Steady on Bob, it's only 4 pages so far!

Why is it seven on my screen then?

OK how about 100 posts instead?

Bob

It's 7 pages on my screen as well.

John P

Hornby's decision to sell their TT range directly on-line is a canny move.

It means that you can't pop down to your local model shop to satisfy your curiosity before buying or not.

In addition, there is a pent-up demand for new models that has not been satisfied by Farish/Dapol and Rapido/Revolution/Sonic.

Apart from wagon kits I have not bought any new model since the latest release of the Dapol 9F.

I suppose that I should be ashamed to admit that I have a credit card burning a hole in my pocket.

So, bravo Hornby, I will buy one of your TT train sets.

I hope I will not be disappointed.

I am cynical old so and so who worries (a lot).

So when the Hornby TT range arrived it concerned me regarding its (potential) negative impact on N. I love n gauge and have never modelled anything but, there is no question of me changing scales now.

However, tonight I learnt in rapid succession that:

A) Heljan saw their three launch locos stomped on by Hornby (and no, I do not feel that is an overstatement, see below)

B) Hornby won't even both giving ANY retailers this new range (regardless of "Tier" status).

And so I am left wondering if this all may come to zero as Hornby blunder on with their questionable attitude towards competition.

I do not believe the overlap with Heljan is a coincidence. There have been far too many "coincidences" over the years like this (just ask Rails, Hattons, Accurasacle, Rapido etc etc). And as for their treatment of retailers, what has started as a few models seeing allocations cut at the last minute (leading to cancelled pre-orders for customers who then have little option but to go to Hornby at full RRP) is now a regular occurrence.

And now it's an entire range. Yes the prices are reasonable for now, but given 20% year on year increases are also not uncommon, how long will that last? And that's at full RRP with no option to go elsewhere.

Sorry above will seem like a rant. I do however stand by the points.

Skyline2uk

Quote from: jpendle on October 13, 2022, 07:34:01 PM

Quote from: Bob G on October 13, 2022, 06:10:53 PM

Quote from: njee20 on October 13, 2022, 06:09:27 PM
Steady on Bob, it's only 4 pages so far!

Why is it seven on my screen then?

OK how about 100 posts instead?

Bob

It's 7 pages on my screen as well.

John P

This needs further exploration! Is this the mobile site, perhaps? I get 20 replies to a page, so reply #100 is the first on page 5. Is it different on mobile?

Quote from: njee20 on October 13, 2022, 11:36:37 PMThis needs further exploration! Is this the mobile site, perhaps? I get 20 replies to a page, so reply #100 is the first on page 5. Is it different on mobile?

In your user profile under "Look and Layout" you can set how many posts are shown per page. I'd guess you've changed it at some point whether deliberately or accidental. (I think the minimum is 10, maximum 50, and default is 15).
Fewer is probably better on smaller phone screens and for loading photo-heavy threads on slower connections; I've set mine to 25.

Never knew that, cheers!

I do have to agree with Adam that it's too much of a coincidence for Hornby to wholly replicate Heljan's offering. I could understand duplicating a 37, 47 or 66, but a 31 is definitely not one of the obvious locos to start with IMO, and as observed it's in Hornby's final wave of models. Definitely a landgrab.

Hornby's approach to distribution is a little controversial too, lots of spontaneous (and often significant) price rises, although I think most of the impact is felt by dealers, with terms suddenly changing and orders not being fulfilled. As I said, I certainly don't think anyone benefits from Heljan pulling out; and I actually include Hornby in that.

It looks like there will be another series of "Hornby: A Model World" next year. I'm sure SK will use that to grab as much free publicity as possible for TT:120. I'm also sure that is part of the business plan.

Hornby do seem to be rather aggressive these days in terms of their treatment of retailers and their attitude towards fellow manufacturers. I don't see it as a good look. Sorry to say this but, because  of their "bully boy" tactics I hope TT:120 isn't a success.

I've kept out of this, but as a 70 year old who clearly remembers Triang TT and it's demise, I just can't see it catching on.

If it does, I'll be pushing up daisies anyway  ;)

Hi All

Hornby had a TT:120 display layout at Kings Cross today

An A3 and A4 plus rolling stock on the layout, when you see these models in the flesh they are not much bigger than N gauge, I was surprised how close they are in size to N gauge. The models are very nicely done and look great,

I had a quick chat with Simon who was there and he is very enthusiastic about TT

By the way the full size Flying Scotsman was in the station

And Heljan has already withdrawn:
https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/heljan-withdraws-from-tt120-market (https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/heljan-withdraws-from-tt120-market)

well--hornby TT has certainly had a lot of publicity on this site.

Oh--dammit--ive just added to it--dohh

Some who want to buy yet another A3 or A4....some who want to mix UK trains with continental, and some who think if it is that close to N then what's wrong with the senior scale?

You will never sell TT120 solely as a web based scale in the UK. People do like to see before they buy, and handle it before they hand over the money.

It will end up bought by well-meaning grannies for little lads who then find out it doesn't work with their OO.

Just my thoughts.

Bob

I am probably the only person to have seen these in the flesh unless anybody here has been to Kings Cross today, as I said I am impressed with them, the A4 I saw close up is notably better than the Dapol N gauge A4 particularly when it comes to the value gear.

For people new to the hobby and not wanting to go with 00 due to its size, TT:120 could be an option over N gauge, therefore could impact on the N gauge market

Totally random that I saw these, as I was catching a LNER train to Scotland, still on this train crossing the broader now to Scotland

I just joined the TT club.

Hopefully if a lot of people join it will encourage Hornby to continue with this project.

Quote from: thebrighton on October 14, 2022, 06:07:58 PM
And Heljan has already withdrawn...

I refer the honourable gentleman to previous posts 83 and 92  :D

Some comments from American TT modellers :

https://www.ttnut.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=3745&start=20 (https://www.ttnut.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=3745&start=20)

I'd be interested to know what our Aussie/Kiwi members think about Hornby TT ?

@joe cassidy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1484)
I'm starting to think you are actually a TT120 modeller rather than an N scale modeller.

Quote from: Bob G on October 14, 2022, 06:28:11 PM

It will end up bought by well-meaning grannies for little lads who then find out it doesn't work with their OO.

Just my thoughts.

Bob

Albeit only that small subset of well meaning grannies who can use the internet and buy stuff from the Hornby website of course..

Quote from: zwilnik on October 14, 2022, 11:09:55 PM

Quote from: Bob G on October 14, 2022, 06:28:11 PM

It will end up bought by well-meaning grannies for little lads who then find out it doesn't work with their OO.

Just my thoughts.

Bob

Albeit only that small subset of well meaning grannies who can use the internet and buy stuff from the Hornby website of course..

The only grannie, well meaning or otherwise, in my family is the wife.
She, along with my adult children, get a list, along with part numbers, and which retailers to buy from, so what I get is appropriate for my layout  :D

John P

My experience with TT120 is relegated to a static A4 and a completely scratchbuilt model of another streamliner. I think it was a novel step between N and OO, enough detailing to make it pop as a display piece but hogs up less space on the table compared to larger scales. Detailing on the new Hornby TT range looks comparable to modern OO except for the giant couplings. Wonder how much tooling was just computer design scaled down to suit? Not in a rush to order anything myself but once Hornby's TT range is out it'll be interesting enough to see whether it flies or falls.

The constructive intervention by @joe cassidy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1484) led me to the north American reaction, where one contribution referred to one of the big weaknesses of the Hornby online ordering system - its inability to combine shipping cost for multiple orders placed and delivered at one time. Each item ordered attracts a shipping cost at the time of ordering and this is still charged even when several items are delivered together. For several years I have pre-ordered Arnold grain wagons (all at once) and then had to phone Margate to recover a refund of the overcharged postage when they are all delivered together. Even our 50-something internet-savvy grannies will baulk at being charged extra shipping when the total order and delivery clears the free shipping threshold.

Quote from: zwilnik on October 14, 2022, 11:09:55 PM

Quote from: Bob G on October 14, 2022, 06:28:11 PM

It will end up bought by well-meaning grannies for little lads who then find out it doesn't work with their OO.

Just my thoughts.

Bob

Albeit only that small subset of well meaning grannies who can use the internet and buy stuff from the Hornby website of course..

I think I am at risk of becoming a well meaning person of experience who can't use the internet, and who has a poor experience of grannies!

Quote from: Bob G on October 14, 2022, 11:02:23 PM
@joe cassidy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1484)
I'm starting to think you are actually a TT120 modeller rather than an N scale modeller.

I'm still an N Gauge modeller (at time of writing)  :)

Judging by the number of members who say they are buying a bit of TT, and also those who have multiple scales in their possession, I wonder how many of us could be called "Collectors" rather than "Modellers"? I can see why some people like to flit between scales/gauges but I for one don't have the money or inclination to dilute my modelling. Am I unusual by sticking to an era/region/location? As I've got older, whereas once I would buy any Southern Region stock, now it has to be Eastern or Central section only. I have the odd bit of other region stuff that could have been seen in my chosen area, but nothing outside of that. How many others are the same? Maybe this needs another thread.......

Dave

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 15, 2022, 11:07:51 AM

Quote from: Bob G on October 14, 2022, 11:02:23 PM
@joe cassidy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1484)
I'm starting to think you are actually a TT120 modeller rather than an N scale modeller.

I'm still an N Gauge modeller (at time of writing)  :)

Sorry Joe. I was trying to be sarcastic, and I did indeed edit my original post appropriately this morning, as I could see it didn't hit the right note.
I want to be around here longer than the last Chancellor was :)

Bob

I want to be around here longer than the last Chancellor was :)

You don't set very tough challenges do you  :)

Quote from: Southerngooner on October 15, 2022, 11:15:08 AM
Judging by the number of members who say they are buying a bit of TT, and also those who have multiple scales in their possession, I wonder how many of us could be called "Collectors" rather than "Modellers"? I can see why some people like to flit between scales/gauges but I for one don't have the money or inclination to dilute my modelling. Am I unusual by sticking to an era/region/location? As I've got older, whereas once I would buy any Southern Region stock, now it has to be Eastern or Central section only. I have the odd bit of other region stuff that could have been seen in my chosen area, but nothing outside of that. How many others are the same? Maybe this needs another thread.......

Dave

I once knew someone modelling in EM who complained the OO manufacturers didn't make anything suitable for his summer of 1942 southern branch line somewhere near Andover, at a time when we N gauge modellers would be desperate to have anything Southern in N.

I too have gone from anything Southern to Central and Western section (Pompey lad), with a few concessions to Eastern section, and more than a few concessions to straying WR stock.

This is what happens when there is a better availability of stuff to collect.

I'm happy to stand up and say "My name is Bob, and I'm a Collector", but I have on my workbench right now a Farish China 8F chassis for a SR Z tank, and five UM locos in various stages of improvement, including removal of front couplings, renumbering, lining, and dulling down of shiny loco wheels and crank rods. So I guess I am also a modeller too. Thank goodness for that.

I have also moved to a less broad bandwidth of time, so I do 1950s/60s in N, and 1970s/early 80s in N. All the 1990s plus stock has been sold on.
I also have 00 1970s as that satiates my need for RTR EMUs.

I couldn't limit my modelling to a particular place and time. There would be far too many Rule 1 purchases, which I can partially avoid by modelling Eras rather than years.

Bob

Quote from: elmo on October 15, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
I want to be around here longer than the last Chancellor was :)

You don't set very tough challenges do you  :)

I was trying to stop it becoming too political, by keeping it to historic figures :)

As I have already "hinted" on here I hope that Hornby TT will be successful.

I also hope that it will take market share from OO gauge, and not from N.

Another factor that needs to be taken into consideration concerning the success of TT is the availability of rolling stock.

There are often posts on here about the difficulty in buying complete rakes of, for example, BR Mk1 coaches in N.

If the availability of TT coaches is better than that of N gauge coaches that might persuade some people to at least dabble in TT.

Quote from: Southerngooner on October 15, 2022, 11:15:08 AM
Judging by the number of members who say they are buying a bit of TT, and also those who have multiple scales in their possession, I wonder how many of us could be called "Collectors" rather than "Modellers"?

Guilty as charged :D 

I just love owning, handling and playing with model trains and so does my lad :) Yes Continental N is my main interest and the vast majority of my collection and I do "model" as in build layouts for it, but between the two of us we do seem to have at least a sample of just about every other major scale/gauge from T to 3.5".   I'm struggling for space to work on my stuff due to his HOe layout under construction at the moment :)

I find myself starting to daydream some ideas for a small portable/exhibitable British TT:120 layout just to make a change from the European stuff and for something to run the Hornby stuff around.  Just ordered half a dozen lengths of the Peco TT:120 track and a couple of their points to get a feel for it and test how well (or not) my ancient Triang TT sets will run on it.  Gawd knows where we'll store the boards if I do build a layout but....   

Sorry to go a bit off topic but I think the last time someone tried to relaunch a new scale to the train set market was the "Big Train" project in the 1980s or thereabouts.

It was, I believe, O gauge and I know there was a Hymek in the range because I read an article about superdetailing it a few years ago.

Can anyone remember who the manufacturer was ?

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 15, 2022, 12:02:29 PM
Sorry to go a bit off topic but I think the last time someone tried to relaunch a new scale to the train set market was the "Big Train" project in the 1980s or thereabouts.

It was, I believe, O gauge and I know there was a Hymek in the range because I read an article about superdetailing it a few years ago.

Can anyone remember who the manufacturer was ?

Triang.
Mark

...and no free TT:120 membership and 15% off for Aussies yet.

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 15, 2022, 12:02:29 PM
Sorry to go a bit off topic but I think the last time someone tried to relaunch a new scale to the train set market was the "Big Train" project in the 1980s or thereabouts.

It was, I believe, O gauge and I know there was a Hymek in the range because I read an article about superdetailing it a few years ago.

Can anyone remember who the manufacturer was ?

Tri-ang did "Big Big" which was O gauge battery powered on plastic track from 1966 - 1972.
Lines group which included Rovex was spilt up in 1971. Dunbee Combex Marx group acquired Rovex.
The tools were then sent to Russia and Novo supplied DCM with Novo Big Big which were sold as Novo Toys Ltd from 1975 - 1980.
It gets more complicated than this as there were also retooled licensed lookalike products from Lima in Europe, AMF in the US and a pirate version called Red Rocket in Hong Kong. 

@joe cassidy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1484)   I had a Triang Big Big Train set back in the mid 70s, I remember running it outdoors around Grandad's front garden paths :)  A blue Hymek diesel and a couple of coaches, red plastic track.  Battery powered O gauge.

Almost tempted to buy a set again just for nostalgia :)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155179541751 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155179541751)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/qi0AAOSw0tJjMbKn/s-l1600.jpg)

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 15, 2022, 11:47:33 AM
Another factor that needs to be taken into consideration concerning the success of TT is the availability of rolling stock.

There are often posts on here about the difficulty in buying complete rakes of, for example, BR Mk1 coaches in N.

If the availability of TT coaches is better than that of N gauge coaches that might persuade some people to at least dabble in TT.

It's difficult to buy stock from many suppliers in many scales except at launch time. Twenty years ago it was normal to expect to be able to buy 'core' models from suppliers or shops for years after initial launch. I do understand that the many, many model shops there used to be were in effect a financial buffer for the manufacturers, buying and holding stock until punters came along. By cutting out the middleman, manufacturers receive all the margin and punters might get a cheaper product, but the price we've paid is long term availability.

A quick skim through Hornby's ~200 wagons in their OO range suggests that keeping designs available for years after launch is their policy (as is Peco's for N Gauge wagons).

Mike

I think that the first phase of the TT launch will go well with lots of people buying a set to just see what it is like. It's up to Hornby to keep the momentum going by releasing more locos and rolling stock in the next phases. If sales in the first phase are poor then I expect they will cut their losses.

I'd be very tempted by a set with a tank engine and could see myself building a micro layout. For instance, TT would be good to go round the bottom of the Christmas tree.

Interesting times  :)

Quote from: silly moo on October 15, 2022, 02:44:03 PM
For instance, TT would be good to go round the bottom of the Christmas tree.

We have an LGB Christmas train set running round ours.

I think you need a bigger Christmas Tree  :P

John P

Were I starting from scratch, then TT might be an option but now I have my collection well on the way I won't be burying any. I notice that Hornby have carried over from OO the awful trailing bogie on the Pacifics where the wheels don't actually touch the track. It looks to me as if they are pitching for those that want an extended train set?

They are pitching for the "family market".

Quote from: Dickydcc on October 15, 2022, 07:30:41 PM
I notice that Hornby have carried over from OO the awful trailing bogie on the Pacifics where the wheels don't actually touch the track.

They certainly do appear to be flangeless.  I wonder why, and when did that come in on their OO models?*  Old Triang/Hornby Pacifics have flanged trailing wheels.

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-tt-model-prototypes-examined/ (https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-tt-model-prototypes-examined/)

(https://azure.wgp-cdn.co.uk/app-world-of-railways/posts/P1120423.jpg)

* Reading old threads on RMWeb it seems people wanted the Pacifics NOT to have pivoting trailing trucks (the real thing has a cartazzi arrangment), so if there's no pivot and not a lot of room for sideplay then you need flangeless wheels slightly above rail height to cope with sharp trainset curves :(

Saw the samples at Kings Cross too, I thought it looked good. Discernibly bigger than N. Actually surprisingly so, I was worried it would look very similar. Simon Kohler was manning the stand, and when someone said "is this new scale a Hornby initiative?" He said "yes. Peco are doing some similar track, but really it's us.". So they're certainly not seeing it as a collaborative project between multiple companies.

I thought they track looked very poor. But sectional track can do, and it was of course hastily laid for the exhibit. The stock looked good. I'm not really interested  in either an A3 or A4, so I didn't pore over them, but they had more presence than N certainly.

Quote from: njee20 on October 15, 2022, 08:18:54 PM
Saw the samples at Kings Cross too, I thought it looked good. Discernibly bigger than N. Actually surprisingly so, I was worried it would look very similar. Simon Kohler was manning the stand, and when someone said "is this new scale a Hornby initiative?" He said "yes. Peco are doing some similar track, but really it's us.". So they're certainly not seeing it as a collaborative project between multiple companies.

Can't say I am surprised Hornby regard the Peco track as "similar" to their own,  or that they have done their own in house at all.

It seems very modern Hornby to try and corner the market in all areas.

Oh well, let's see how it actually gets on.

Skyline2uk

Quote from: Southerngooner on October 15, 2022, 11:15:08 AMI wonder how many of us could be called "Collectors" rather than "Modellers"?

Quote from: maridunian on October 15, 2022, 01:21:42 PMIt's difficult to buy stock from many suppliers in many scales except at launch time. Twenty years ago it was normal to expect to be able to buy 'core' models from suppliers or shops for years after initial launch.

I think those two comments are largely inter-connected and the latter is perhaps a symptom of the former...

Remember the old days; you could walk into any model shop, and it was a safe bet you could buy an LMS liveried 4-6-0 off the shelf there and then... It would be a Black 5 numbered 5041 because that's all Farish ever did, but it was pretty much constantly available. If you had more than one and wanted a different number, or wanted another variant, you got out the tools and applied some transfers or assembled a white-metal kit to fit the chassis.

Now, most shops will still have an LMS 4-6-0 on the shelf most of the time, but it might be a Black 5, or a Jubilee, or a Royal Scot, and the identity will vary batch-to-batch; yet buyers complain it's not the exact number they want in the condition they want. They clamour for 'New' types and when re-runs are produced grumble that we're being exploited or cheated somehow or fobbed off with repeats...

Quote from: PLD on October 15, 2022, 01:21:42 PM

Now, most shops will still have an LMS 4-6-0 on the shelf most of the time, but it might be a Black 5, or a Jubilee, or a Royal Scot, and the identity will vary batch-to-batch; yet buyers complain it's not the exact number they want in the condition they want. They clamour for 'New' types and when re-runs are produced grumble that we're being exploited or cheated somehow or fobbed off with repeats...

Jeez, I'd like to know where you do your shopping - I've been waiting for a re-run of Black 5's for several years now to no avail and I certainly can't remember the last time Jubilees or Royal Scots were produced either!

Hector

i wonder if hornby international brands (lima, jouef, electrotren) will go in for tt?  there doesn't seem to be any french or italian tt scale currently.


tim

Quote from: bluedepot on October 16, 2022, 09:46:04 AM
i wonder if hornby international brands (lima, jouef, electrotren) will go in for tt?

Arnold already has a small range of TT.  Looking at the catalogue pages there's more than I was aware of, though the majority of the 11 pages online are spare parts :)

https://uk.arnoldmodel.com/catalogue/tt-scale

thanks i will have a look!

definitely wont be buying though! must stop spending money!

tim

I don't think Heljan will move into N gauge. Back in 2008 they had a stand at Model Rail Scotland where they were supposed to be canvassing interest in producing models of a class 26 and 27 in N. Being interested, I went to the stand. I have never seen two such disinterested people. They weren't taking names or even making any record of how many were interested. Needless to say, the models didn't appear, and were later produced by Dapol.

The track seems to be related to Tillig in some way. The standard straight is 166mm, exactly the same, and the radii up to 390mm are also the same. The abbreviations for some of the yet to be released items in the catalogue are also related — ABW for the Y-point, from "Außenbogenweiche". But the points are different. The standard Tillig EW1 points are 129.5mm long. Hornby's are 166mm, the same as the Tillig EW2 points, and have a compensating curve of 640mm radius. But that curve isn't in the Tillig range, and the Tillig EW2 points are live frog, non-latching, and not fitted with Rail joiners as they're for use with flexible track.

The Tillig EW1 points are also non-latching but can be used with an additional hand operating mechanism. If I'm interpreting the German in the catalogue correctly, they're also what Peco would call "unifrog", while Hornby's points are latching and dead frog — looks quite a long dead frog to me.

From my POV, one of the strengths of TT is those couplings. Unlike the N gauge ones, at least those on most British models, they couple and uncouple reliably. They can be uncoupled from below using a ramp — there's one in the initial range — and from above using a magnet on a stick that Tillig sell for just less than €5. Try finding an uncoupling ramp in the Farish catalogue. And in my experience the Fleischmann ramps have a success rate of about 10% on most U.K. models, apart from Peco and Minitrix.

The track range is already as big as Peco Setrack N and could soon have a Y point which Setrack doesn't have even though it's been around more than 50 years (and the Setrack points are radius 1 while most models require radius 2).

I'm planning to buy an 08, some wagons and some track, although initially I'll run it on the Tillig ballasted track I have for the DR TT layout I've.been planning for some time.

FYI, Hornby TT:120 track is supported by the latest update to AnyRail 6—quick work!

I scaled up my Hardendale lime hoppers to 1:120 and ordered a print which has just arrived. The scale difference with N doesn't seem a lot on paper but comparing the two sat together on the desk, the TT one feels a lot bigger.

(https://i.postimg.cc/D08Dq4F4/PXL-20221019-093405841-MP.jpg)

It is bigger!

I don't why people are comparing it to N gauge. May as well compare it to OO.

It's halfway between the two!

Quote from: Bealman on October 19, 2022, 11:10:15 AM
It is bigger!

I don't why people are comparing it to N gauge. May as well compare it to OO.

It's halfway between the two!

British N = 2.065mm/1ft

TT120 = 2.5mm/1ft

OO = 4mm/1ft

So actually it is quite a bit closer to N than OO.

I have kept from commenting on this thread in recent days, but personally I do not see TT120 as a particular challenge to British N but the test will be to see the quality of the products when the sets arrive. I envisage a lot of "Design Clever" which may be more forgivable in this scale, but I have a feeling they won't be as detailed as their N counterparts as they are aimed at a different market.

I read somewhere in this thread that the valve-gear of the A4 was better detailed than Dapol's. I would challenge this - the late BR Dapol A4 has both a lubricator link and speedo drive on the rear axles, no sign of this on any of the TT120 variants.

Roy

i agree roy

i dont think the detail will be that great on the hornby tt product's because they arent going after the train enthusiast market / want to keep the cost down.

anyway we shall see!


tim

Quote from: bluedepot on October 19, 2022, 03:27:26 PM
i dont think the detail will be that great on the hornby tt product's because they arent going after the train enthusiast market / want to keep the cost down.

Hornby already have "Railroad" and "Railroad plus" in OO. to cater for modellers seeking lower overall quality/better value trains. Why would you tool up a new scale, scare away other entrants (Heljan), and go for a low quality product from the start, where you are the only player in town?

That doesn't sound like a good plan to me, when modellers are now used to mix and match.

Bob

Roy

It was my comment on the A4 valve gear, I saw the TT A4 at Kings Cross, and stated the valve gear was "better" than the Dapol A4. The comment was not about detail, it was about fit, finish and quality of rivets, just far better built than the Dapol valve gear, although the detail looked good as well. I have had to send both a Dapol A3 and A4 back for replacements as the valve gear fell apart with in the first few circuits of my layout, and as an experienced modeller, I do know how the handle delicate N gauge locos

Again seeing these models in the flash, on a layout, they do not look a great deal bigger than British N gauge. At first glance could be mistaken for N gauge but certainly not 00

As I said, I disagree, I was actually surprised how much bigger than N they looked, moreso than I expected. But evidently it's entire subjective. I know nothing about valve gear.

Noticeably bigger to me (the perspective makes it look like less difference than there actually is) :)


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/126/5885-191022213511.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=126924)

Anyway my sample of Peco TT:120 track and points arrived today in readiness for a possible layout at some point in the future.   I've spent a few minutes re-gauging some old Triang TT stock so it runs through the point frogs and blades. They just need the back-to-back widened by approximately 0.5mm.  I had to dismantle my ancient Castle class to get to the drive wheels and adjust them using a makeshift puller/pusher tool.

You should be mindful that you are comparing a 1:160 loco to 1:120 not a British 1:148

Quote from: Rabbitaway on October 20, 2022, 04:51:40 PM
You should be mindful that you are comparing a 1:160 loco to 1:120 not a British 1:148

Yes I know that, but given that British locos and stock are built to a smaller loading gauge than the Continental stuff the physical size of the models tends to be similar.

[edit]You are correct though, the difference between the two will be a little less comparing the same loco @ 1:148 and 1:120, but I would say it's still significant and as I mentioned my photo above makes the TT model seem a little smaller than it actually is in relation to the N model.

Quote from: Nbodger on October 10, 2022, 08:49:24 PM
If it takes off, other manufacturers get involved hence reduced production slots for N.

Will people look more favourable on TT than N as a space saver, I certainly may have years ago. N is only a small percentage of the sales of model railways will TT see it reduced further

I've only just seen these Hornby announcements, and that was my first thought as well. Is there really space in the market for another gauge without seeing a decline in popularity of one of the existing ones? Perhaps not - and if this works for Hornby other manufacturers may move towards it, and if that means reduced production in another gauge then that's likely to be N, given that models in N only sell a fraction of the numbers which those in OO do.

That said, so far as I can see Hornby don't intend to sell through shops, which seems a really odd decision - given that it's a novelty, many people will want to see and handle the models before thinking about buying them.

Gaugemaster have now decided not to develop a British range in TT:120.

"Following Hornby's news that they have developed an expansive range of TT:120 products which they intend to supply exclusively via their own website, it makes little or no commercial sense for us to develop a complimentary range of products in this scale.

Gaugemaster are committed to supporting our crucial network of UK model and hobby retailers, who continue to be the backbone of our industry and an essential resource to the modelling community.  It is difficult for us to see why UK dealers would want to stock a range of British TT products when nearly all the reward in this scale would be beyond their reach.  We will continue to offer the large range of European TT products from brands such as Herpa, Noch, Piko, Preiser, Roco and Viessmann which have always been available for dealers to order, or to buy direct from ourselves.

Instead, we will continue to work independently and with partner brands across the more established scales such as OO, N and O to develop widely available new products.  We will share details of these with you over the coming weeks.

Everyone here wishes our friends at Hornby all the very best of luck with their new venture and as modellers, we look forward to seeing their huge number of newly-announced TT:120 models emerge over the coming years."

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 22, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
Gaugemaster have now decided not to develop a British range in TT:120.

"Following Hornby's news that they have developed an expansive range of TT:120 products which they intend to supply exclusively via their own website, it makes little or no commercial sense for us to develop a complimentary range of products in this scale.
"

This is a shame.

Not sure I understand their logic though. If Hornby are doing the heavy lifting, making major capital investments and widespread marketing to build a substantial new modelling community, Gaugemaster can surely benefit from offering products that complement Hornby's range. I can see they'll be peeved about the Class 66, but there must be room for many complementary variants and liveries, including international. As  for other prototypes, even Hornby's extensive range has huge regional/period gaps that beg filling.

Speaking for myself, Maridunian's Models have always been gap fillers, and with one exception so far, my TT:120-rescaled models (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/maridunian-models?section=TT%3A120+Scale&s=0) remain that. Once Hornby chasses are available, I shall drop mine, but they were necessary to get myself started. If interest grows I shall rescale some other gap-fillers from my existing range, otherwise nothing's lost.

Gaugemaster say they will carry on offering accessories, which with Peco's lineside building kits should hopefully ensure TT scale doesn't become an exclusively spoon-fed community.

Mike

Quote from: maridunian on October 22, 2022, 04:03:11 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 22, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
Gaugemaster have now decided not to develop a British range in TT:120.

"Following Hornby's news that they have developed an expansive range of TT:120 products which they intend to supply exclusively via their own website, it makes little or no commercial sense for us to develop a complimentary range of products in this scale.
"

This is a shame.

Not sure I understand their logic though. If Hornby are doing the heavy lifting, making major capital investments and widespread marketing to build a substantial new modelling community, Gaugemaster can surely benefit from offering products that complement Hornby's range. I can see they'll be peeved about the Class 66, but there must be room for many complementary variants and liveries, including international. As  for other prototypes, even Hornby's extensive range has huge regional/period gaps that beg filling.

My take on it is that it isn't the range that Hornby's offering, it's the way they're exclusively selling it from the Hornby site. From Gaugemaster's point of view, anything they sell to fill in the gaps ultimately benefits Hornby by driving modellers to the Hornby website for the main bits and promotes Hornby's range (which they could expand to grab any of their competitors bits if they see profit) but nothing Hornby does even mentions Gaugemaster or anyone else providing TT bits and won't be seen alongside them, so won't generate any sales for Gaugemaster. Essentially it's a one way door in Hornby's favour.

I have decided to jump onto the TT boat
When I made the decision Heljan, Hornby, Gaugemaster and Peco were all producing models, then Heljan bailed out because Hornby produce the models Heljan announced in OO gauge and they had also announced the class 08 in TT, so it appears Hornby may have said something to Heljan about future TT models or Heljan are just assuming that Hornby will rescale their OO gauge Class 31 and 060 tank loco.

Hornby are selling their range direct from the Hornby website, you can join the TT 120 club for free until Jan 30th 2023 and instantly get a 15% discount. therefore a next 18 DCC ready class 50 costs £124.09 after the discount and the class 08 costs £101.14, postage is free.

Dapol announced a price increase this week.

I also found this website https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/the-gallery/ 
they produce 3D printed TT scale models and cover quite a lot of class's including the AC electrics class 81 to 86. you dont get this option in OO gauge nevermind N, they posted a blog this week saying the vast majority of their kits will be available in 1:120. I have done some asking and found out that the 3D print includes the body and underframe. I am now asking fellow TT modellers for chassis information.

Reasons for changing scales is because I have seen the Hornby range 1st hand, the class 50 and 56 which they do in OO gauge are superb, I have no doubts that when Hornby do the class 56 in TT, it will be miniature version of the OO gauge model with the correct roof for the era, Simon Kohler has said they will do the correct toolings, this is something that Dapol failed to do when they produced the class 56 in N gauge, some say the Dapol class 50 is too wide.

Scalescenes website say to purchase the OO gauge buildings, use the printer advanced settings to shrink it to 63% and its TT 1:120 scale.

Hopefully other manufacturers jump on board, but I think its the prices Hornby are retailing models at which is probably putting them off. Hornby are looking at outdated models they do in OO gauge and updating them to do in TT and also in OO, I guess this is the Railroad range (former Lima)

I can understand that there are modellers who do other scales and have been collecting for years who are probably reluctant to part with all that collection for something new which only has a handfull of models on offer, lets see where we are in a years time.

:)

Where did this sudden push for TT come from? I'd always thought of it as very much a niche interest, like Z gauge. But I don't read model train magazines much, or look at forums other than sometimes this one. Has it become 'a thing' in other countries in recent years?

It's always had a bit of a following in Europe, but ultimately it's down to Peco, Heljan, Gaugemaster and then Hornby all announcing products, although the Hornby announcement has meant GM and Heljan dropping out.

Quote from: Gwalton on October 22, 2022, 07:23:58 PM
Reasons for changing scales is because I have seen the Hornby range 1st hand, the class 50 and 56 which they do in OO gauge are superb, I have no doubts that when Hornby do the class 56 in TT, it will be miniature version of the OO gauge model with the correct roof for the era, Simon Kohler has said they will do the correct toolings, this is something that Dapol failed to do when they produced the class 56 in N gauge, some say the Dapol class 50 is too wide.

Are any of the diesels tooled? I've only seen the A3 and A4?

Given a OO gauge 50 from Hornby is £230, and that's a much bigger market, I'd suggest it's a bold assumption that the TT scale one will simply be a smaller version. Plus the colour of the GBRf one is shambolic. Up there with the worst of Dapol's errors. 

Have you seen this ?

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-tt-model-prototypes-examined/ (https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-tt-model-prototypes-examined/)

Yes, and as I said, it's basically just the A3 and A4 (which are/were on display at Kings Cross), plus a 3D printed HST and 08? I certainly wouldn't be selling up because their OO gauge 56 and 50 are nice models. They've not even announced any intention to do a 56 have they?

I'm watching with interest, but I really don't think everyone else pulling out is good for the progress of the scale at all. That pushes it closer to being a Hornby fad I'd say.

Quote from: njee20 on October 22, 2022, 08:12:19 PM
Yes, and as I said, it's basically just the A3 and A4 (which are/were on display at Kings Cross), plus a 3D printed HST and 08? I certainly wouldn't be selling up because their OO gauge 56 and 50 are nice models. They've not even announced any intention to do a 56 have they?

I'm watching with interest, but I really don't think everyone else pulling out is good for the progress of the scale at all. That pushes it closer to being a Hornby fad I'd say.

unless you are in the Hornby TT 120 forum you won't know how well its doing. I don't think it will be fad, plenty have joined up, plenty are pre ordering stock. Peco TT 120 track is selling out in a lot of shops. I think hornby have advertised and presented it well.
As i said time will tell.

I'm not convinced that a forum is ever a good indicator of popularity, it's entirely self selecting. RMWeb has a few threads in the dedicated area, but I expect a cautious level of adoption. As you say, it'll certainly be interesting! I am less confident in the success of it than I was a couple of weeks ago, when Heljan and GM were 'in' too.

Quote from: njee20 on October 22, 2022, 08:35:08 PM
I'm not convinced that a forum is ever a good indicator of popularity, it's entirely self selecting. RMWeb has a few threads in the dedicated area, but I expect a cautious level of adoption. As you say, it'll certainly be interesting! I am less confident in the success of it than I was a couple of weeks ago, when Heljan and GM were 'in' too.

There is a plan B which is 3D printed bodies, I was planning to do a O.H.L.E 1960s themed layout in N using 3D printed bodyshells, the option is there for me to do it in TT if the Hornby product doesn't go to well and other UK outline manufacturers dont join in.
https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/ac-electric/

Quote from: Gwalton on October 22, 2022, 09:17:28 PM
... the option is there for me to do it in TT if the Hornby product doesn't go to well and other UK outline manufacturers dont join in.

In which case I guess you'll be looking at the Continental TT locos for chassis?

I do "get" Heljan and GM's stated reasons for pulling out, though I can't help thinking the drive behind the introduction of British TT:120 has got to be down to some awareness of a major manufacturer developing a range even if the specifics weren't known until Hornby's announcements.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 22, 2022, 09:40:54 PM

Quote from: Gwalton on October 22, 2022, 09:17:28 PM
... the option is there for me to do it in TT if the Hornby product doesn't go to well and other UK outline manufacturers dont join in.

In which case I guess you'll be looking at the Continental TT locos for chassis?

I do "get" Heljan and GM's stated reasons for pulling out, though I can't help thinking the drive behind the introduction of British TT:120 has got to be down to some awareness of a major manufacturer developing a range even if the specifics weren't known until Hornby's announcements.

Yeah, it is a bit weird. It's obviously way too coincidental that 4 separate brands 'announced' TT within days of each other (albeit to varying degrees of commitment). I can only assume that they expected Hornby to sell through their retail network, as I do get the rationale behind not wanting to push people toward Hornby direct, and as I said previously Simon Kohler was quite bullish in saying it was "basically a Hornby thing", he clearly doesn't see it as any sort of industry collaboration.

The whole point of railway modelling these days is that you can mix and match successfully. It makes the hobby more interesting.
A single brand train set might have been a good idea in the 1960s, with Hornby the expensive range and Triang the cheaper end, but now production is China based and we have universal standards there is no reason not to mix things up a bit.
I think the Hornby business model just sucks.
Their attitude of isolationism deserves to fail in my opinion.
They don't have to look far to see what isolation does to a country's economy.

Bob

Good post, Bob  :thumbsup:

 Simon Kohler was quite bullish in saying it was "basically a Hornby thing", he clearly doesn't see it as any sort of industry collaboration.
[/quote]
I got that impression in the launch video, they have been going at it since 2017 and created a new design team just for the TT scale. Simon said during the video that the class 37s and 47s were now being researched and the design manager said later in the video that older models "which I assume is the Railroad range" are being redeveloped for TT and the CAD will be used to update OO gauge models in the future.
What we are seeing now are the models ready for the 1st couple of phases which were probably started on in 2017 and possibly delayed due to lockdowns, I guess we will see the next phases once these models are finished
If they have put this much time,  effort and money into it then I can understand why they probably want to be the leaders in this scale, but there are models they have not done in OO gauge which other manufacturers have done and could do in TT if they feel there is a market for them.
Heljan said Ta Ta for now when they announced they were not doing the class 08, class 31 and 060 and are probably going to sit back and see how it goes with Hornby before reconsidering whether to enter TT.

 Maybe Hornby want to make sure TT is a success before releasing models to the retailers or perhaps it's a case of being able to control prices. I would have expected them to supply the retailers with sets just so that customers could get a look at them but then I've read that existing modellers are not really the target market.

I think lots of people are waiting to see what will happen. I've joined the club as it's free and I wonder how many have done so without placing an order.

At least it gives us all something to talk about.

Quote from: Gwalton on October 22, 2022, 09:17:28 PM
There is a plan B which is 3D printed bodies, I was planning to do a O.H.L.E 1960s themed layout in N using 3D printed bodyshells, the option is there for me to do it in TT if the Hornby product doesn't go to well and other UK outline manufacturers dont join in.
https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/ac-electric/ (https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/ac-electric/)

There are a few Shapeways 1:120 UK-outline/plausible-visitor (https://www.shapeways.com/designer/maridunian/lists/uk-tt120?sort=name) prints out there too, including EM1 electric, Class 41 Warship and Class 66 diesels and a handful of smaller steam engines.

Mike

Quote from: silly moo on October 23, 2022, 02:20:30 PM
Maybe Hornby want to make sure TT is a success before releasing models to the retailers or perhaps it's a case of being able to control prices.

That would make no sense at all in marketing terms - when introducing a new product range, particularly when it's something which is both novel and which people are in many cases going to want to see before buying, the aim would normally be to get it out there as much as possible, both for those reasons and because people seeing it in shops may buy it even if they'd not considered it before.

By selling solely from their own website they are significantly increasing the chances of it being a flop. They will no doubt have balanced this risk against the increased profit to be made if this retailing approach works, and decided to do it as they have. Time will tell whether it's a success - if it gets off to a bad start they may well become more keen to include retailers!

As regards controlling prices, they can do that anyway using the terms and conditions of supplying to retailers.

Simon Kohler was talking about 1:120 TT more than eight years ago as I found this blog entry from April 2016 of a TT modeller who was annoyed about the "wrong" TT scale for the Corgi Rail Legends and an envisaged RTR 1:120 TT.

http://eastmoor.blogspot.com/2016/04/corgi-rail-legends-missed-opportunity.html (http://eastmoor.blogspot.com/2016/04/corgi-rail-legends-missed-opportunity.html)

Quote[...]

A bit more digging found this article by Simon Kohler of Hornby. It's bascially about how he thought and considered that Hornby should reintroduce TT as a ready to run scale and range. What an interesting thought - however, there was one section which, to me, is one of the most arrogant pieces I've read concerning the model railway trade.

"I suppose the most radical decision I made when putting my initial thoughts together was to scale the UK 'TT' to match that of the European 'TT' which is 1:120. The old Tri-ang 'TT' was scaled to 3mm:1ft which equated to something like 1:101.6. according to Wikipedia. For me it was time for the days of UK basta.d scales to come to an end and although I may not be keen on losing the UK£ to the €uro I had no such qualms over the new UK 'TT' being compatible with the rest of Europe even though it may not have suited everyone."

For 'radical' I think 'arrogant' is more appropriate. And saying "according to Wikipedia" does not really give you much confidence in his background knowledge of the hobby. And it seems a very sad "I am Hornby - you will do as I say" attitude. And why would UK TT need to be compatible with European TT? How often would he think that an A4 would be seen alongside German electrics? If someone decides to run their layout so, I would suggest that the mixing of scales bothers them very litte - they're just doing their own thing!

[...]

"This article" should link to http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/news/simonsays/table-service/ (http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/news/simonsays/table-service/) but now only leads to https://uk.hornby.com/community/blog-and-news (https://uk.hornby.com/community/blog-and-news) – I guess that Kohler's blog entry was removed once work on TT:120 began in earnest (other entries go back to 2011).



I can understand the choice of a new TT range instead of intensifying their N scale ambitions. Most good sellers have been done in N already – but from Dapol or Farish, not from Hornby. So they could bring a duplicate or triplicate A4 or HST or look elsewhere – to a "King" or the GT3? – or another gauge ... so far, understandable.

Where I think they go wrong is selling only via the Hornby website – this will make TT:120 a flop. And to be honest, I do hope for exactly that. A successful TT market would certainly have negative impact on new model development in N, and if Hornby would sell via retailers they could influence prospective buyers of small scale railways towards TT instead of N for a perceived "better value for money" as it's slightly bigger at comparable price.
But now, only selling via their webshop, why would a retailer recommend Hornby TT? I doubt that there are too many new modellers who will start directly by browsing the Hornby webshop and deciding on TT without comparing the size of the models at a shop.

I am a fan of Arnold, Scalextric and particularly Corgi, so I wish Hornby all the best for the future but I do hope that in a few years they realize that TT:120 was a costly mistake and recognize that there would be more revenue to make with new N gauge models. :)

I think there is the risk of some confusion here about Kohler's role at Hornby. He left the company at the end of March 2014 and did not return until the end of 2017 after the arrival of Lyndon Davies as MD. In between his times at Hornby he was with MREMag (the home of the blog) and Locomotion Models.

I notice nobody seems to have looked at the back page of the catalogue. As well as the disclaimer about the photographs, it says "the models in this catalogue are expected to be available during 2022". Looks like they have been delayed, and also looks as if a "phase" is 6 months — notice how the phases are "paired".

I don't now think TT120 is going to attract current N gauge modellers who are finding N is too fiddly as they get older — it's too close in size; TT-3 might have done better in that respect. If the publicity causes some people to go to a local model shop, Hornby have just given retailers an incentive to push "anything but TT" — if they haven't room for TT that could be N — always provided they have relevant items in stock. Might be an idea for Farish to reissue mark 1 coaches, for instance...

Quote from: maridunian on October 23, 2022, 02:29:34 PM

Quote from: Gwalton on October 22, 2022, 09:17:28 PM
There is a plan B which is 3D printed bodies, I was planning to do a O.H.L.E 1960s themed layout in N using 3D printed bodyshells, the option is there for me to do it in TT if the Hornby product doesn't go to well and other UK outline manufacturers dont join in.
https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/ac-electric/ (https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/ac-electric/)

There are a few Shapeways 1:120 UK-outline/plausible-visitor (https://www.shapeways.com/designer/maridunian/lists/uk-tt120?sort=name) prints out there too, including EM1 electric, Class 41 Warship and Class 66 diesels and a handful of smaller steam engines.

Mike

Thank you for the info.
I have looked at the 3mm society website and then clicked on all the supplier links, most are supplying the original size, several others have said they are now venturing into the 1:120 scale,
There are a couple of groups which I have joined and they are all buzzing over this, someone Cad designed a class 89 last week in 1:120 and is looking to sell 3D prints once its ready.

I will keep checking Shapeways to see if anything new pops up, I know Charlie from CMAC has resized some of his Woodhead electrics to this scale.
There was an article in the June Railway modeller about 3mm, the person who wrote that is on one of the groups I am in and has knowledge on how to make chassis units for 3D prints.
:)

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 22, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
Gaugemaster have now decided not to develop a British range in TT:120.

"Everyone here wishes our friends at Hornby all the very best of luck with their new venture and as modellers, we look forward to seeing their huge number of newly-announced TT:120 models emerge over the coming years."

And we mean that most sincerely  :)

Quote from: davidinyork on October 22, 2022, 07:37:19 PM
Where did this sudden push for TT come from? I'd always thought of it as very much a niche interest, like Z gauge. But I don't read model train magazines much, or look at forums other than sometimes this one. Has it become 'a thing' in other countries in recent years?

It's called "market development" - finding new customers outside of your traditional customer base.

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 24, 2022, 12:32:35 PM

Quote from: davidinyork on October 22, 2022, 07:37:19 PM
Where did this sudden push for TT come from? I'd always thought of it as very much a niche interest, like Z gauge. But I don't read model train magazines much, or look at forums other than sometimes this one. Has it become 'a thing' in other countries in recent years?

It's called "market development" - finding new customers outside of your traditional customer base.

It's not though really, is it? It will absolutely be targeting people from the traditional customer base - i.e. people who would otherwise buy other gauges (probably OO in most cases given that that has the biggest market share by a long way). It's unlikely that anyone will only buy model trains on the basis that this new gauge is available - if it wasn't, they would buy another gauge and in the case of OO quite likely from Hornby.

The only major advantage it might give is that Hornby will - to start with at least - largely have a monopoly on the market for that particular gauge. If it doesn't flop, which is bound to be a risk, especially with them cutting the usual sales route out of the equation.

Time will tell!

The main point that SK was making in the famous interview was that Hornby is targetting a non-traditional market - the "family market", who have never heard of Hornby Dublo, Triang, etc.

Best regards,


Joe
(ex Sunshine Desserts)

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 24, 2022, 12:48:12 PM
The main point that SK was making in the famous interview was that Hornby is targetting a non-traditional market - the "family market", who have never heard of Hornby Dublo, Triang, etc

I'm not convinced that such a 'new' market exists! Everyone knows that there is such a thing as model trains, and if asked to name a manufacturer of them most (in the UK) would say Hornby. I can't see any reason why a new gauge would prompt anyone to look at buying model trains if they weren't already considering it anyway.

I didn't get where I am today without knowing the difference between "great" and "super".

CJ JC

At the school where I worked for many years, they all knew I was a model railway nut. When the computer guy installed a new network, I asked him what my password was. He replied, "Bloody hell, George - Hornby of course"

Quote from: D9020 Nimbus on October 23, 2022, 05:37:43 PM
I don't now think TT120 is going to attract current N gauge modellers who are finding N is too fiddly as they get older — it's too close in size; TT-3 might have done better in that respect.

As someone who has tried N gauge and does find it too fiddly (sorry!), this new TT120 has attracted me. Rolling stock that's the correct size for the track? Hooray, at last!!. OO is too big (for me), N is too small (for me), TT120 looks like it might just hit the sweet spot.

I would have had absolutely zero interest is it was a new range of TT3.

I've pre-ordered an 08 in BR blue. When the track becomes available I'll order a small quantity to build a tiny plank (or maybe a box file? Hmmm . . .). Waiting for more wagons to be made available, and 1st-gen DMU would be nice (but that's not been mentioned at all so far).

If it fails, well I'll still have my loco and track.

What will kill it for me is if 'stuff' in future is only available if you pre-order. This 'blink & you miss it' type of product availability that seems to be prevalent today I find most annoying.

A lot of the questions people on here are asking are answered on this video

Simon gives his reasons as to why not N gauge

Someone on here said the couplings look too big on a catalogue photo, on the video they look ok.

Simon says that the track for N and OO gauge is the incorrect width, TT 1:120 the track is the correct width for the TT 1:120 rolling stock, so the rivet counters ears will probably pop up knowing that.

I really hope Hornby scale down the APT because I dont have the room to run a full size OO scale model.

video 1 link is here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biiFX3KS6GM&t=121s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biiFX3KS6GM&t=121s)

Quote from: mrobs2002 on October 25, 2022, 10:17:12 AM
When the track becomes available I'll order a small quantity to build a tiny plank (or maybe a box file? Hmmm . . .). Waiting for more wagons to be made available, and 1st-gen DMU would be nice (but that's not been mentioned at all so far).

The Peco TT:120 code 55 flexitrack and medium points are already available.  I bought some in advance so I could try my old TT3 stuff on it just for fun whilst waiting for the Hornby set to arrive in due course :)  I've had to widen the wheel back-to-backs by about 0.5mm and then yes it will run through the frogs. I'm seeing a very slight spark where the wide metal loco wheels are bridging the frog V just beyond the Unifrog, but nothing major that can't be dealt with with a bit of varnish or convert the Unifrog to be more like Electrofrog.  I'm expecting the Hornby points to be the usual "train set" power routing insulated frog type.

Out of curiosity I joined the TT club for free.
I'm waiting to see how good their class 37s and 47s are once released.
I love to see their 4VEP downsized but it'll be a very long wait.
The only small steam locos planned so far are a GWR 57xx and J94.

Quote from: Gwalton on October 25, 2022, 10:43:14 AM
Someone on here said the couplings look too big on a catalogue photo, on the video they look ok.

They can be changed. The NEM coupling pockets are the same size as on N gauge.

Quote from: Jim Easterbrook on October 25, 2022, 06:13:22 PM

Quote from: Gwalton on October 25, 2022, 10:43:14 AM
Someone on here said the couplings look too big on a catalogue photo, on the video they look ok.

They can be changed. The NEM coupling pockets are the same size as on N gauge.

Thank you, that is handy to know.  :)

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 25, 2022, 10:52:49 AM

Quote from: mrobs2002 on October 25, 2022, 10:17:12 AM
When the track becomes available I'll order a small quantity to build a tiny plank (or maybe a box file? Hmmm . . .). Waiting for more wagons to be made available, and 1st-gen DMU would be nice (but that's not been mentioned at all so far).

The Peco TT:120 code 55 flexitrack and medium points are already available.  I bought some in advance so I could try my old TT3 stuff on it just for fun whilst waiting for the Hornby set to arrive in due course :)  I've had to widen the wheel back-to-backs by about 0.5mm and then yes it will run through the frogs. I'm seeing a very slight spark where the wide metal loco wheels are bridging the frog V just beyond the Unifrog, but nothing major that can't be dealt with with a bit of varnish or convert the Unifrog to be more like Electrofrog.  I'm expecting the Hornby points to be the usual "train set" power routing insulated frog type.

I have some TT track by Peco, it doesn't look to bad, I have been looking at another range by Tillig because they do various points including 3 way, its code 83 or 85 (I can't remember) but looks a bit of a job to get the 2 makes to join together unless you do some cutting and soldering.

Has anyone who signed up for the Club received a free catalogue yet?

Maurice C

They said it was a couple of weeks off as they were still finalising it when I spoke to them.

I have been through all the forums on this over the last few weeks and sat through watching the SK interviews. the less said about those the better, promoting a new product while slating your existing products is never a good thing and the same old tired thoughts about N gauge just start grating after a while.  i am still none the wiser who the brand-new market for this scale is or for. that said i will properly sign up to the club next january before the deadline just in case these new models are so much more highly detailed and such superb runners for a cheaper price compared to N that i have to sell everything and move up 20% in size, so i don t need glasses to put things on the track.

I have not seen the announcement directly from them, but the statement is from the same retailer who commented on Heljan pulling out, so no reason not to believe it.

James Trains have said they are "sad to learn that Gaugemaster will not be producing U.K. TT locos".

So that's another one out.

The Hornby / Peco show?

And on the latter, can anybody confirm their range of track is separate from Hornby's?

Skyline2uk

Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 22, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
Gaugemaster have now decided not to develop a British range in TT:120.

"Following Hornby's news that they have developed an expansive range of TT:120 products which they intend to supply exclusively via their own website, it makes little or no commercial sense for us to develop a complimentary range of products in this scale.

Gaugemaster are committed to supporting our crucial network of UK model and hobby retailers, who continue to be the backbone of our industry and an essential resource to the modelling community.  It is difficult for us to see why UK dealers would want to stock a range of British TT products when nearly all the reward in this scale would be beyond their reach.  We will continue to offer the large range of European TT products from brands such as Herpa, Noch, Piko, Preiser, Roco and Viessmann which have always been available for dealers to order, or to buy direct from ourselves.

Instead, we will continue to work independently and with partner brands across the more established scales such as OO, N and O to develop widely available new products.  We will share details of these with you over the coming weeks.

Everyone here wishes our friends at Hornby all the very best of luck with their new venture and as modellers, we look forward to seeing their huge number of newly-announced TT:120 models emerge over the coming years."

@Skyline2uk (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1081)
The Gaugemaster statement is in this post from last week.

Sounds like Hornby trying to grab as much of the pie as possible at the outset has put off other suppliers!

@woodbury22uk (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1599)

Thanks and sorry I missed that

Skyline2uk

Quote from: Skyline2uk on October 26, 2022, 10:34:46 AM
... can anybody confirm [Peco]s] range of track is separate from Hornby's?

Peco's TT:120 track is code 55 and Unifrog points (I have some already to play with :) )   When my Hornby TT:120 set arrives I'll find out what the Hornby track is like but I'm assuming it'll be code 80 (ish)  like the Tillig stuff.

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 26, 2022, 12:47:45 PM

Quote from: Skyline2uk on October 26, 2022, 10:34:46 AM
... can anybody confirm [Peco]s] range of track is separate from Hornby's?

Peco's TT:120 track is code 55 and Unifrog points (I have some already to play with :) )   When my Hornby TT:120 set arrives I'll find out what the Hornby track is like but I'm assuming it'll be code 80 (ish)  like the Tillig stuff.

Thank you

I have had it confirmed elsewhere that Hornby are making their own track. My original reason for asking this question has now also been addressed;  namely it is unlikely Peco will follow others and pull out of TT because they can still cater to the rest of the world with their track and are therefore not as impacted by Hornby market dominance (if it comes to pass) in the U.K. market.

Should have thought of that myself in fairness!

Skyline2uk

Size comparison on Bedford OB coaches.

Top is Oxford 1/148 over Oxford 1/120 over Corgi 1/76.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/127/medium_1599-261022153547.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=127048)

Four of the 6 Oxford TT:120 vehicles - Dennis pump escape, Bedford OB, Austin LL Taxi, Morris Minor van.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/127/medium_1599-261022161029.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=127049)

If I took the plunge into TT I'll buy Tillig's pre-ballasted track. I've experience of similar Fleischmann's and Kato's products in various scales.
Having said that Hornby will give 1:120 TT a huge shot in the arm if they succeed.
If Hornby brought out Terriers and other rolling stock to make a representation of the Hayling Island branch I'd be interested!

I note that another series of " Inside Hornby" is due - it had record viewing figures

I suspect a few TT models will be seen on screen....

I'm assuming you mean "Hornby—A Model World".

I think we can take it for granted TT will feature. But what do you mean by "record viewing figures"?

Quote from: mojo on October 25, 2022, 09:03:18 PM
Has anyone who signed up for the Club received a free catalogue yet?

Maurice C

The catalogue, badge and membership card arrived today.

It is interesting to compare the illustrations based on 'TT' locomotives (2550, 60004 and 60084 on the cover) with those elsewhere in the catalogue, including that of 60084 on page 7, which look to be based on '00' locomotives.

All very interesting.

Best wishes

John

We have posted some photos on our Facebook page which were taken at the Great British Model show in Gaydon today.

Class 08 finished in DB red, A3 and A4 in BR Green plus some other bits.

They were taken by G Hall
I haven't got a clue on how to post pics on here. I have uploaded them into my cloud account.

here is the link https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dQq9w0PhUaThWOfILjKw83PUpB1-Yu9L?usp=share_link

Should a DB 08 have nose ladders?

Quote from: Roy L S on October 29, 2022, 04:15:57 PM
Should a DB 08 have nose ladders?

The Hornby OO model with the same loco number has no ladders, so they need to make their mind up :)

(https://i0.wp.com/www.islandrailways.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/r3504tts_product_1.jpg)

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 29, 2022, 04:45:16 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on October 29, 2022, 04:15:57 PM
Should a DB 08 have nose ladders?

The Hornby OO model with the same loco number has no ladders, so they need to make their mind up :)

(https://i0.wp.com/www.islandrailways.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/r3504tts_product_1.jpg)

Lets hope they are clip on and were for display  :D

Re the photo of the 2 A4s, I assume we are looking at the TT version on the left and the OO version on the right ?

Quote from: joe cassidy on October 29, 2022, 05:49:34 PM
Re the photo of the 2 A4s, I assume we are looking at the TT version on the left and the OO version on the right ?

TT Version on the left, I wasn't there, the pics were taken by someone else. it could be the TT 3mm on the right. the con rods look very basic on the bigger loco
The guy who took the photos quoted on his post that he wished the new Hornby items were TT 1:106 and not 1:120, he then removed his post

I bought the new RM magazine the other day and saw photos of the new TT locos.
What puzzeled me was that the wheel flanges are quite large and the flanges of the trailing wheels are left off.
I can't understand this, if you introduce a new system why not do it to modern standards?
If finer flanges work in N gauge the must certainly work in a larger scale.

I was curious about the differences between the Hornby TT and the Dapol N gauge A3 so I copied two images in a new file. Above the Hornby (from world of railways website), below the Dapol (from Hattons website).
The Dapol wheels look better imho altough the wheel center of the pony wheel looks better in the larger scale.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/127/5017-291022195115.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=127137)

Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 29, 2022, 04:45:16 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on October 29, 2022, 04:15:57 PM
Should a DB 08 have nose ladders?

The Hornby OO model with the same loco number has no ladders, so they need to make their mind up :)

(https://i0.wp.com/www.islandrailways.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/r3504tts_product_1.jpg)

Ladders were removed early in their careers to avoid crews accidentally touching overhead cables

Quote from: JanW on October 29, 2022, 07:58:04 PM
I bought the new RM magazine the other day and saw photos of the new TT locos.
What puzzeled me was that the wheel flanges are quite large and the flanges of the trailing wheels are left off.



(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/127/5017-291022195115.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=127137)

Hornby have left the flanges off the trailing wheels on some OO gauge steam locos. here is the Hush Hush which is done the same way, can be seen at 13 mins 45 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWKGmVh7rV0&t=893s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWKGmVh7rV0&t=893s)   

Quote from: jpendle on November 03, 2022, 03:58:05 PM
Today is the first day that Hornby TT120 hasn't shown up in my recent unread posts.

:claphappy: :claphappy: :claphappy:

About blinking time  :D

John P

Just for you.  :bounce: :bounce:

Quote from: nobby on October 26, 2022, 06:53:34 AM
I have been through all the forums on this over the last few weeks and sat through watching the SK interviews . . . . i am still none the wiser who the brand-new market for this scale is or for.

If you've seen the Simon Kohler interview, you'll know exactly who this launch is aimed at. Whether that market actually exists, or is big enough, is another question entirely.

Quote from: nobby on October 26, 2022, 06:53:34 AM
that said i will properly sign up to the club next january before the deadline just in case these new models are so much more highly detailed and such superb runners for a cheaper price compared to N that i have to sell everything and move up 20% in size, so i don t need glasses to put things on the track.

I don't think that anyone has ever claimed that these will be "super-detailed" models. I hope they're not. I don't need anything else that I'm scared to remove from the packaging in case bits start falling off.

Quote from: Roy L S on October 29, 2022, 04:15:57 PM
Should a DB 08 have nose ladders?

No it should not, nor should either of the other two. In the cataloguebrochure they are all pictured without.

I've ordered a BR blue one. If it comes with nose ladders I will attempt to remove them, as long as I can do so without breaking them and/or damaging the loco.

Quote from: Nbodger on October 10, 2022, 08:49:24 PM

Quote from: port perran on October 10, 2022, 08:41:57 PM
And is it a threat to N gauge?

This is what I was thinking, how much of a threat it will be.

If it takes off, other manufacturers get involved hence reduced production slots for N.

Will people look more favourable on TT than N as a space saver, I certainly may have years ago. N is only a small percentage of the sales of model railways will TT see it reduced further

I hadn't really thought about TT:120 being a threat to other scales, taking the 'creating a new market' policy at face value, but receiving Hornby's TT Club pack today (lanyard, Id card, pin brooch + catalogue ), I'm now less sure.

Hornby are clearly going 'all in'.

Trying to picture a new railway modeller choosing their scale when all Hornby's announced range is  available, they would struggle to actually buy corresponding models (I focused on wagons) in N Gauge. A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

That's where the risk is, newcomers not choosing N, with obvious consequences for where manufacturers focus their future efforts.

Mike

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

Yeah but haven't Hattons fallen out with Bachmann hence the absence of Farish in stock? That skews the sample somewhat.   What about other dealers?

Quote from: ntpntpntp on November 21, 2022, 12:27:00 PM

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

Yeah but haven't Hattons fallen out with Bachmann hence the absence of Farish in stock? That skews the sample somewhat.   What about other dealers?

Correct, Hattons will not stock anything from Bachmann or any of their sub-brands including Farish.

A better sample would be at Rails of Sheffield (incidentally no longer stocking Hornby, but that's irrelevant for TT) or Model Railways Direct.

Skyline2uk

Quote from: Skyline2uk on November 21, 2022, 12:37:24 PM

Quote from: ntpntpntp on November 21, 2022, 12:27:00 PM

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

Yeah but haven't Hattons fallen out with Bachmann hence the absence of Farish in stock? That skews the sample somewhat.   What about other dealers?

Correct, Hattons will not stock anything from Bachmann or any of their sub-brands including Farish.

Ah, OK that's a better stock - https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/n-gauge-wagons-freight?tags_availability_ovs8irlcu1it987sg6v9cr6a=In%2520Stock&tags_condition_9sx7c9kasonnsc2lopb7xv6y=New&tags_brand_td93xydblb7cxukrqni65zsz=Graham-Farish

Shows how often I buy new RTR!

Hopefully new, would-be railway modellers comparing N with TT:120 will possess these insights and a mind to shop around...

Mike

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM

Quote from: Nbodger on October 10, 2022, 08:49:24 PM

Quote from: port perran on October 10, 2022, 08:41:57 PM
And is it a threat to N gauge?

This is what I was thinking, how much of a threat it will be.

If it takes off, other manufacturers get involved hence reduced production slots for N.

Will people look more favourable on TT than N as a space saver, I certainly may have years ago. N is only a small percentage of the sales of model railways will TT see it reduced further

I hadn't really thought about TT:120 being a threat to other scales, taking the 'creating a new market' policy at face value, but receiving Hornby's TT Club pack today (lanyard, Id card, pin brooch + catalogue ), I'm now less sure.

Hornby are clearly going 'all in'.

Trying to picture a new railway modeller choosing their scale when all Hornby's announced range is  available, they would struggle to actually buy corresponding models (I focused on wagons) in N Gauge. A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

That's where the risk is, newcomers not choosing N, with obvious consequences for where manufacturers focus their future efforts.

Mike

Still unclear where they think this new market is going to come from. Why would a new gauge suddenly make someone buy model trains if they weren't going to anyway, in one gauge or another?

There's also a fair chance that there will be runs of a model, then no more for ages - just like with existing gauges. Hornby themselves are bad for this. Want an OO gauge HST in Executive livery? Well, hard luck! Since they brought out the current power car models over a decade ago they've only done one batch in that livery (one of which used an incorrect body variation). These are long sold out, and go for silly amounts on ebay whenever they come up.

If TT proves popular (which remains to be seen, of course), can we expect similar to happen?

I absolutely cannot see TT being produced in any other style than the current trend for the other "mainstream" gauges.

Batches produced in China, maybe never to be made again, repeat livery runs being very rare.

Sad reality of modern production of minority consumer goods.

That being said, this:

QuoteWant an OO gauge HST in Executive livery? Well, hard luck! Since they brought out the current power car models over a decade ago they've only done one batch in that livery (one of which used an incorrect body variation). These are long sold out, and go for silly amounts on ebay whenever they come up.

Is shocking and makes me glad Dapol seem to be revisiting popular HST colours at least 2 times.

Skyline2uk

My TT120 club badges and catalogue arrived in France today (postmarked 28 November).

The catalogue reminded me of the Triang catalogues in the 1960s.

Bit of a bump but some might find this interesting.........

More twaddle from Sam, supported by dubious poll statistics.    It's been discussed at length on the Hornby TT forum.

All done for "clicks". It will be a slow burn and take many years to establish itself but his thoughts on a big bang approach are naive in the extreme. Indeed when TT3 was introduced it started small with a Jinty, Castle and limited track and rolling stock, whether its fate will be the same remains to be seen, but it may appeal to the established Global TT market so personally I do see a future for it to some degree.

Marklin created Z scale to avoid competing with the N gauge market so they could keep customers to their own brand products and relatively high margins. Hornby TT seems to be a similar play built in a direct distribution model and targetting specific periods to make it work.

That said I hope it does well. TT was a lovely scale to work in because the extra size let you do things that are hard in N to do well or reliably, but not the big space hog that OO is.

QuoteStill unclear where they think this new market is going to come from. Why would a new gauge suddenly make someone buy model trains if they weren't going to anyway, in one gauge or another?

The model railway market has a significant turnover because most modellers (in money terms) start after having evicted the kids or retired and time does the rest.

So there is always a new audience to appeal to.

It will also I suspect be much easier to make TT kid safe than N.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on February 28, 2024, 08:12:39 PM

QuoteStill unclear where they think this new market is going to come from. Why would a new gauge suddenly make someone buy model trains if they weren't going to anyway, in one gauge or another?

The model railway market has a significant turnover because most modellers (in money terms) start after having evicted the kids or retired and time does the rest.

So there is always a new audience to appeal to.

It will also I suspect be much easier to make TT kid safe than N.

An interesting point on the "kid safe" issue and it prompted me to take a look at the packaging of my TT120 Class 08 shunter. Just like N the model is described as "not suitable for children under 14 years" so it would not appear that the scale is at this stage anyway being produced with a children's market in mind.

I do have some "skin" in the game having purchased some TT120 bits - an "Easterner" set and the 08, a few wagons and some Peco points/track for a small side-project but have put it on hold until more locos and stock that are suitable arrive.

My take on the locos and stock is that they are competent rather than ground-breaking, no more detailed than current generation N and technically less sophisticated in many cases. Overall for me it has few real advantages over N - yes it is a bit bigger which may appeal to some who like to dabble in scratch-building I can see that, but on the other hand, to achieve a comparable layout size to N requires a substantially bigger footprint. To take the example of my current N layout which is 2.5ft x 7.5ft equating to 18.75 square feet, were it to be TT 120 it would need to be 5/4ths wider and deeper so would be 9.4ft x 3.1ft which equates to 29.1 square feet a whole 10 square feet bigger.

I certainly do think TT120 will carve a niche for itself and have a modest success as an alternative modelling scale for British outline modellers, it does have other advantages too in that the scale is consistent with continental TT which is popular in some European countries and it has a "pure" scale/gauge ratio (albeit British N's discrepancy is a fraction of a millimetre). If it were to attract existing modellers or indeed newcomers away from any established scale I actually think more might elect for TT120 over OO personally, but it will be many years before sufficient range exists for it to have any meaningful impact in my opinion.

Roy

The "not for children under 14" thing is to do with the European Toy Safety Directive, which I belive has things like design, QC and tax implications - if it's specifically not for children under 14 it's not classified as a toy.

My now seven year old son plays with my N gauge, and has a growing collection of his own. He's played with it since he was 3, and has broken significantly fewer items than me in that time!

Quote from: njee20 on February 28, 2024, 09:47:34 PMThe "not for children under 14" thing is to do with the European Toy Safety Directive, which I belive has things like design, QC and tax implications - if it's specifically not for children under 14 it's not classified as a toy.

My now seven year old son plays with my N gauge, and has a growing collection of his own. He's played with it since he was 3, and has broken significantly fewer items than me in that time!

No argument from me on that score, I know plenty of other examples including my own daughter who were equally careful when under 14 (she is now 31) but the point remains that if Hornby are including those words and that caveat they are not targeting the toy market with these products.

Regards

Roy

I've never looked at whether other Hornby models have that caveat I'll confess, I'm assuming they do, with the exception of things like Thomas the Tank Engine, and it's definitely obvious that TT stuff is not going for the low detail, robust approach, so I agree, there's no real concession to 'toy' use.

Quote from: Roy L S on February 28, 2024, 11:59:52 PM

Quote from: njee20 on February 28, 2024, 09:47:34 PMThe "not for children under 14" thing is to do with the European Toy Safety Directive, which I belive has things like design, QC and tax implications - if it's specifically not for children under 14 it's not classified as a toy.

My now seven year old son plays with my N gauge, and has a growing collection of his own. He's played with it since he was 3, and has broken significantly fewer items than me in that time!

No argument from me on that score, I know plenty of other examples including my own daughter who were equally careful when under 14 (she is now 31) but the point remains that if Hornby are including those words and that caveat they are not targeting the toy market with these products.

Regards

Roy

I saw this earlier, and was about to post who cares? Then thought better of it.

But now I'll post it

Who cares?

I have no interest in TT120 either, George, but if Hornby were to go bust on the back of it that news could have wide ranging ramifications in the model world.
Remember - if you bury your head in the sand, 4 of your 5 senses stop working ;)

Quote from: Newportnobby on February 29, 2024, 09:59:53 AMI have no interest in TT120 either, George, but if Hornby were to go bust on the back of it that news could have wide ranging ramifications in the model world.
Remember - if you bury your head in the sand, 4 of your 5 senses stop working ;)

I don't think TT120 will bring Hornby down, I feel sure internal company "controls" would prevent a disproportionate amount of money being put into a single project, and I get the feeling that this constraint may have to some degree frustrated Simon Kohler who seemed to be talking about things moving much faster. This is where Sam's comments are particularly naive in expecting a massive range launch in Year 1 as it was never going to happen in terms of production capacity, capital investment and maintaining "Business as Usual" amongst other product lines. In fact Hornby have been pretty canny by selecting the Gresley Pacifics as the same chassis can be used under original A1, A3 and A4 with only a few detail differences.

I don't think Frasers would be looking to purchase a larger stake without confidence of a return to profitabilty, be that by means of a refocus on the "train set" market or in other ways.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Newportnobby on February 29, 2024, 09:59:53 AMI have no interest in TT120 either, George, but if Hornby were to go bust on the back of it that news could have wide ranging ramifications in the model world.
Remember - if you bury your head in the sand, 4 of your 5 senses stop working ;)

That's as maybe...

...but it won't stop a lot of 'em speaking!