Help rectify wiring error with electrofrog point

[pgtips]

Hi,

I've made a bit of a mistake wiring my N gauge electro frog points. I prefer insul frog but had to 2 electro and in order to complete my track lay down I opted to use them.

I have used the insulated terminals and it was all ok. I then soldered joining wire to ensure no loss of power BUT I don't have a thin wire to cut, mine must be an older version and have sleepers joining the rails (pic below)

So of course blind to this pitfall I reassembled to find I have a short.  Its obvious now but I just didn't think it through.

I'm not sure what to do. If I remove the sleeper the rails still touch and it will be unsupported.

Is there a fix for this type of electro frog ?
Should I just cut the wires that were intended to solve the loss of power and live with it.

Unfortunately for me I have already ruined a point trying to see how much movement in the sleeper (I thought put an insulated one in its place but they don't disassemble and at £15 a shot I'm not in a hurry to ruin any more.)

Any steer on this would be appreciated, its a pain.

many thanks

[chrism]

Usually, if people link the stock and closure rails as you  have done, they also cut the closure rails between the bridge wires and the frog. By not doing so, you have created the short because both closure rails are connected to the frog underneath the point.

Thus, your choice for rectifying it is either to cut the wires or to cut the closure rails - the former being my preference. If you have trouble with poor contact at the switch blades then you can power the frog directly using a switch linked to, or as part of, the point motor or a manual switch if you plan on operating the point manually so that the frog is connected to the correct stock rail for the direction the point is set.

Don't understand what you mean by "insulated terminals" or "remove the sleeper", I'm afraid.

[emjaybee]

From my understanding of ElectroFrog points, you use insulated rail joiners on the two Frog rails, solder a connection to the Frog rails, and then use a Frog 'juicer' or point motor operated switch to change polarity of the Frog.

Not sure where you got your idea from. 

I'd snip the wires you've already done, and solder onto the Frog. If the points already installed you should still be able to do this.

On the ElectroFrog points I've installed I've not snipped any thin wires that were factory installed. They all work fine.

[pgtips]

Hi,

I watched a very useful video Dean Park Stn "How to wire Electro frog points >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et3vuedbZ98

BUT where he snipped his wire I have sleepers so cannot isolate hence I thought these must be a different/older/obselete maybe, type of electrofrog.
So I cannot disconnect (snip) a joining wire as I have joiners where he had a wire.





So I thought to replace the joiners with insulated ones but it does not seem possible.
There is no gap between the rails if I remove the joiner and without it the rail is loose
Many thanks
PG

[pgtips]

or when you say cut the closure rails did you mean the wires on the far right here,  they are the only wires I can cut.

[emjaybee]

Cut the link wires you have soldered on.

It'll NEVER work as long as they are still there.


With respect, I don't understand why you followed the example if your points are different in wiring configuration.

[chrism]

or when you say cut the closure rails did you mean the wires on the far right here,  they are the only wires I can cut.

No, the closure rails are the inner two rails to which you've soldered your links. As can be seen in the photo, they are electrically connected to the frog, and to each other, via the wires let into the sleepers.

Replacing the switch blade hinges with insulated joiners won't work because the short you've introduced is beyond them.

The simplest fix will be to remove the two linking wires that you've put on and replace the conducting rail joiner to get the switch blade fixed in place again. The point should then work as it's designed.

Personally, I'd also solder a wire to the ones let into the sleepers underneath the frog and run that wire down through the baseboard so that, if you find that you have poor contact via the switch blades the frog wire is accessible for connecting to some form of switch (point motor or manual) to connect it to the correct power rail depending on which way the point is thrown.

[ColinH]

The video you linked to is showing a OO layout and whilst generally modelling and wiring techniques are non-scale specific unfortunately the same can not be said about electro frog points.  As already stated if you do not wish to rely on switch rail contact to power the frog you will need to solder a wire to the V of the frog rail and feed that via a switch which can either be added to a peco point motor or is incorporated in a Seep PM1. By doing this you will feed poser back to both of the switch rails but as they will only touch one outer rail at once you will not get a short. There is no need to cut the switch rails in N gauge.

[ntpntpntp]

Looks like you've tried to follow advice for making OO electrofrog points "DCC Friendly", bonding the running rails to the closure rails with those two links. However as part of this mod you must also isolate the actual frog from the closure rails.

Look at this photo of a Peco Unifrog point which effectively is DCC Friendly out-of-the-box: notice the plastic gaps either side of the actual frog? The gaps on the closure rails (left side of the frog in this photo) are where you would need to cut your point if you want to keep those two links you've soldered. The gaps on the right of the frog are the equivalent of where we fit isolating joiners on the ends of the frog V rails of an Electrofrog point.

https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Unifrog



You have choices:
a) Keep those bonding links and cut through the closure rails. You will need to add a frog polarity feed wire and a switch controlled by the associated point motor.
b) Remove the bonding links and rely on point blade contact
c) Remove the bonding links and add a frog polarity wire switched by the point motor.

Option c) is how I wire my electrofrog points for DC. This is NOT DCC Friendly but it works for most people. The risk is that a wheel flange might short against the open blade because both blades are at the same polarity, but the tolerances in N ore so wide it's extremely unlikely.

The drawing below illustrates the potential polarity problem with an unmodified Electrofrog point:

[pgtips]

Thank you for sharing knowledge, and the diagrams/ pictures I've got a much better understanding of it now.

I feel like I really blundered into that, the plan was just to make it more reliable across the points and I didn't spot the glaring problem 00 to N but fortunately cutting the bonds will get me back to where I need to be.

[pgtips]

A few people in this thread have mentioned DCC. I am very much analogue at the moment. Do 'normal' insulfrog or electrofrog with insulated joiners work ok in a DCC setup. Without making a rod for my own back if I can get future proofed it might be worth it now.

Thank you again, very appreciated !

[emjaybee]

A few people in this thread have mentioned DCC. I am very much analogue at the moment. Do 'normal' insulfrog or electrofrog with insulated joiners work ok in a DCC setup. Without making a rod for my own back if I can get future proofed it might be worth it now.

Thank you again, very appreciated !

I have a small layout which will run BOTH DC & DCC ( Not at the same time). All turnouts are ElectroFrog, insulated joiners on the Frog, a feed wire soldered to the Frog and polarity to the Frog switched from the Cobalt Digital turnout motors.

Works fine on both systems.

[ntpntpntp]

@pgtips  yes, the electrical circuit required is the basically the same for DC or DCC.  A layout built for DC will work with DCC.  If you've created a complex DC layout with switched sections, you can just leave them all turned on for DCC.

There are things people like to do differently for DCC, such as bus wiring and dropper feeds all over the place to improve current capacity and signal cleanliness, but from an electrical point of view they are enhancements to the existing circuit. 

You still have to worry about things like reverse loop polarity and live point frog polarity. For DCC some of this can be handled electronically using "frog juicers" rather than the traditional mechanical switching used for DC.

[pgtips]

Thank you so much again everyone. My Deluxe Materials Track Magic just arrived as well so I will get those bonds cut tonight and give it all a really thorough clean.

I asked about DCC purely because I only have one analogue controller so I made everything fed with power so I can run more than 1 locomotive.

[jpendle]

Hi,

Just to add to, and reinforce, what everyone has said.

The mods shown in the video are to make the OO points more DCC friendly and are not required for N Gauge points.
This is because OO points have finer tolerances than N Gauge ones, which means that OO stock can sometimes cause a momentary short when running through Electrofrog points, if you use DCC, then this can be a problem, depending on the system used, etc. On N Gauge points the gaps between the rails are bigger, from a scale perspective, so this is not an issue.

In N Gauge Electrofrog points can be used straight out of the box, relying on the point blades making contact with the stock rails to provide electrical contact.
BEST PRACTICE is to solder a wire to the frog of the point and add some method of switching the frog polarity to supplement, or replace, the blade contact method.
This is because over time blade contact can become unreliable.

All of this applies whether running DC or DCC.

Regards,

John P